Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Oh, please. What I said is that having sex but it not causing a pregnancy is a normal thing.

Differences in Lk 1

Lk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Mary is the Queen of the Angels!

The angel is greeting his sovereign mistress and no introduction is needed with Mary, like verse 19 cos Mary knows Gabriel, Mary from the first moment of her creation by God is immaculate! (And sees the beatific vision of God always before her eyes, even in her mothers womb, my opinion) so she knows Gabriel who stands on the presence of God!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Has the use of reason even in her mothers womb, practicing faith, hope, and charity! Lk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord!


Jesus Christ is the only savior!

But he saves in two ways.

By forgiving our past sins and by preserving us from future sins!

Mary was preserved from all sin, and so she was saved by her son!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

God made Mary worthy in the immaculate conception to receive grace, and to conceive by the Holy Spirit and bring the savior and our salvation!

Mary is the divine treasury where all graces, virtues are stored for her children! Lk 1:28 Rev 12:17


Notice how Christ died for us!

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were not worthy to die for our own salvation!

It’s similar with grace, we are not worthy to receive grace, so God made Mary by the immaculate conception worthy to receive all grace for us, and worthy to miraculously conceive of the Holy Spirit and to give birth to our savior and worthy to receive our salvation!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

This applies to Mary not by nature but by the power and will of God!


Mediatrix does not make Mary the mediator or violate 1 Tim 2:5
Anyone who is in the communion of saints is in union and may pray and make intercession for one another! Rev 5:8
All graces come by Jesus Christ Jn 1:16-17 and Jesus came thru Mary,
matt 1:23 so all graces come thru Mary!
Mary is full of grace the throne of divine grace! Heb 4:16
All generations shall call me blessed!
Lk 1:48

Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary most Holy.
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception.
Blessed be her Glorious Assumption.
Blessed be the name of Mary, ever Virgin and Mother.

Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints. Amen.

Praise of Mary & the saints ends in God!
All merits, graces, and virtues of Mary come from God & Christ!

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe…

No one believed more than Mary! Lk 1:45

Co-redemptrix
Eve a Virgin by the communication of a fallen angel cooperated in the fall of man, the first Adam, gen 3 and it is fitting that Mary a Virgin by the communication of a good angel should cooperate in the redemption of man, the new Adam! Lk 1:28-38

Advocate
Mary help of Christians, pray for us!
Mary is the advocate of Christians because she is our spiritual mother. Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17
Her intercession is great charity, for even before she is asked she sees a need and fills it. John 2:3 they have no wine, and Christ honors his mother, and never refuses her prayers, and because of her powerful intercession the newlyweds were spared Shame, and His disciples believed. Jn 2:10-11

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

I’m an only child. I’m not my parents “first born”. I’m their only born.

Then you are first born
First last and only

the Bible says her child is both God and savior matt 1:21-23 Lk 1:35

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Nobody questions that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born.

Actually some do,

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

 

[Lanman87]

Actually some do,

Not fundamentalist/evangelical Christians. And I don't see anyone making that argument in this thread.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Not fundamentalist/evangelical Christians. And I don't see anyone making that argument in this thread.

Albion

 

[Lanman87]

Albion

I reread all his/her post in this thread. I don't see anywhere he denies the virgin birth. He does call perpetual virginity a myth. But not the virgin birth. Maybe he does but I can't find it. Could you tell me which post?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

I reread all his/her post in this thread. I don't see anywhere he denies the virgin birth. He does call perpetual virginity a myth. But not the virgin birth. Maybe he does but I can't find it. Could you tell me which post?

I don’t recall be he was balking about the virgin birth required a miracle something about the hyman maybe it was someone else

 

[Albion]

Differences in Lk 1

Lk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Mary is the Queen of the Angels!

The angel is greeting his sovereign mistress and no introduction is needed with Mary, like verse 19 cos Mary knows Gabriel, Mary from the first moment of her creation by God is immaculate! (And sees the beatific vision of God always before her eyes, even in her mothers womb, my opinion) so she knows Gabriel who stands on the presence of God!

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Has the use of reason even in her mothers womb, practicing faith, hope, and charity! Lk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord!


Jesus Christ is the only savior!

But he saves in two ways.

By forgiving our past sins and by preserving us from future sins!

Mary was preserved from all sin, and so she was saved by her son!

You've given up trying to find any basis in Scripture for arguing that Mary was Ever-Virgin, I take it. Good.

What topic shall we turn to now?

 

[tango]

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

The Bible never says Jesus went to the toilet either but we can safely assume he did. You can't draw conclusions from silence.

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

... which proves precisely nothing about the existence or otherwise of other children, or indeed the presence or absence of sexual activity after that child was born.

And the Bible says Lk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.


A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Nobody is disputing this. You keep making the same point over and over and acting as if it proves something else. Jesus being born to a virgin doesn't mean that virgin remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

 

[Josiah]

Actually some do,

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)


John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).

As ALREADY stated (are you reading what others post?) yes, Luther (and most Protestants) upheld the ancient TRADITION that Mary remained a virgin. But note two things:

1. NONE of them held this as dogma but as pious opinion. As you chose to note, Wesley upheld this as "belief" not dogma. Pious opinion is not required, not binding, not necessary.

2. Your position is that SCRIPTURE "clearly" states that Mary was a perpetual virgin.... not that "a bunch of humans had that opinion." So quoting 3 people with that opinion does nothing to support your view that SCRIPTURE "clearly states it."




.

 

[Josiah]

Nobody is disputing this. You keep making the same point over and over and acting as if it proves something else. Jesus being born to a virgin doesn't mean that virgin remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

I USED to note in this context that "I am a virgin... doesn't mean I'll die one!" And ... here.... later.... um, I'm no longer a virgin (in fact, I'm the proud Daddy of two boys). Your point is good: Just because one is a virgin at ONE POINT doesn't mean they'll ALWAYS be one (um.... isn't everyone a virgin at least for awhile?). ONCE a virgin is not proof ALWAYS a virgin (as any homo sapiens should know).

YES! The Bible says Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. It says NOTHING about after that. As our new Catholic brother has chosen to prove (even though he claims that the Bible is "clear" that She did so remain).

Now, as I've noted, our brother DOES has solid, ancient, ecumenical TRADITION on his side. I've noted that; I've agreed with that. How much significance one gives to that depends on how much significance they give to such Tradition. Lutherans certainly hold such in high regard and so (until recently) embraced this pov albeit as "pious opinion" (not dogma) - an ancient belief NOT affirmed or denied in Scripture, a permitted belief but not a required dogma.



MY OWN (entirely worthless) OPINION is simple: I don't care. I don't think it's anyone's business. Frankly, I NEVER ask if a couple has sex or not (whether married or otherwise), just seems disrespectful and none of my ______ business. Sometimes couples volunteer this information (kinda makes me uncomfortable) but I don't ask. I remember - even as a kid - my parents clearly saying "good night" to us 3 kids and clearly locking their bedroom door and we 3 smiling at each other cuz we knew.... but I would not THINK of asking them about it and I hoped they wouldn't volunteer anything.


Blessings!


Josiah



.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

You've given up trying to find any basis in Scripture for arguing that Mary was Ever-Virgin, I take it. Good.

What topic shall we turn to now?

Lk 1:34 you still have not explained how you are not a virgin when there is no sex

Next Mary mother of God

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

The Bible never says Jesus went to the toilet either but we can safely assume he did. You can't draw conclusions from silence.



... which proves precisely nothing about the existence or otherwise of other children, or indeed the presence or absence of sexual activity after that child was born.



Nobody is disputing this. You keep making the same point over and over and acting as if it proves something else. Jesus being born to a virgin doesn't mean that virgin remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

Biblical principle

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

As ALREADY stated (are you reading what others post?) yes, Luther (and most Protestants) upheld the ancient TRADITION that Mary remained a virgin. But note two things:

1. NONE of them held this as dogma but as pious opinion. As you chose to note, Wesley upheld this as "belief" not dogma. Pious opinion is not required, not binding, not necessary.

2. Your position is that SCRIPTURE "clearly" states that Mary was a perpetual virgin.... not that "a bunch of humans had that opinion." So quoting 3 people with that opinion does nothing to support your view that SCRIPTURE "clearly states it."




.

Dogma is a belief thee faith
An incontrovertible truth revealed by God
And article of faith

 

[Lanman87]

Lk 1:34 you still have not explained how you are not a virgin when there is no sex

Actually we've both explained Luke 1:34 several times. It is present tense. Not Future tense. It is "I am a virgin and not having sex", not "I'll always be a virgin and never have sex".

 

[tango]

Biblical principle

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Pulling verses out of context doesn't prove anything.

 

[Josiah]

Dogma is a belief thee faith
An incontrovertible truth revealed by God
And article of faith

... and the Protestants you quoted did NOT hold to the POV as dogma. They held to it as "pious opinion" - a PERMITTED view that is NEITHER confirmed or rejected by Scripture but is supported by ancient, ecumenical Tradition. As you note, the POV is dogma in your church, thus a difference you choose to side-step.

Your claim is that SCRIPTURE "clearly teaches" that Mary died as a virgin... but... ironically... you have gone to great lengths to prove yourself wrong, to shoot yourself in the foot.



.

 

[Albion]

Lk 1:34 you still have not explained how you are not a virgin when there is no sex

...and you have not explained how you know that there was "no sex" in Mary's case.

So, as usual, your evidence for her alleged Perpetual Virginity is "We would like it to be so."

 

[tango]

...and you have not explained how you know that there was "no sex" in Mary's case.

So, as usual, your evidence for her alleged Perpetual Virginity is "We would like it to be so."

In fairness, the evidence for Mary's perpetual virginity also includes the fact that she was once a virgin.