Following Prophecy

[Brighten04]

I'm not even sure how you can read that as fulfilled prophecy. It's like you read one tiny snippet of a verse and say "Ah HA!!!"

It happened.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Another thing I noticed about prophecy is sometimes it is not noticed a lot of times before it happens or as it happens. For instance; the wise men saw the star and followed it because they knew the prophecy that I believe was
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

...

Balaam and Balak had a conversation

Numbers 24:10-19 RSV (10) And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he struck his hands together; and Balak said to Balaam, "I called you to curse my enemies, and behold, you have blessed them these three times. (11) Therefore now flee to your place; I said, 'I will certainly honour you,' but the LORD has held you back from honour." (12) And Balaam said to Balak, "Did I not tell your messengers whom you sent to me, (13) 'If Balak should give me his house full of silver and gold, I would not be able to go beyond the word of the LORD, to do either good or bad of my own will; what the LORD speaks, that will I speak'? (14) And now, behold, I am going to my people; come, I will let you know what this people will do to your people in the latter days." (15) And he took up his discourse, and said, "The oracle of Balaam the son of Be'or, the oracle of the man whose eye is opened, (16) the oracle of him who hears the words of God, and knows the knowledge of the Most High, who sees the vision of the Almighty, falling down, but having his eyes uncovered: (17) I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh: a star shall come forth out of Jacob, and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab, and break down all the sons of Sheth. (18) Edom shall be dispossessed, Se'ir also, his enemies, shall be dispossessed, while Israel does valiantly. (19) By Jacob shall dominion be exercised, and the survivors of cities be destroyed!"​

The Cambridge Bible Commentary makes these observations about this passage:

(v10) these three times] If the utterances in chs. 23 and 24 have been rightly assigned to E and J respectively, these words must have been added by the editor who combined the two accounts.

(v10-14) Balak, in anger, bade Balaam flee back to his land. Balaam replied, as before, that he was bound to utter the message which Jehovah gave him, and, instead of departing at once, uttered four further declarations.

(v14) I will let you know] I will counsel thee. ‘Advertise’ (in the ASV & RV) is an archaism, meaning ‘inform’; cf. Rth_4:4

(v15-16) See Num_24:3-4.

(v15-19) Balaam’s second prophetic message. This consists of seven couplets and a triplet.

(v17) In accordance with Num_24:14 Balaam treats of the future of Israel. ‘I see him (Israel), but not (as he is) now; I behold him, but not (encamped as he is) nigh.’

a star shall come forth] lit. ‘there hath trodden’ (דָּרַךְ). Read probably יִזְרַח there shall rise.

a star] A metaphor for a glorious king; cf. Isa 14:12, Rev 22:16. According to an early Jewish interpretation, found in the Targum, this verse was a prediction of the Messiah. The famous pretender in the reign of Hadrian was called Barcochba (‘son of the star’).

the forehead (the corners KJV)] better ‘the two sides [of the head],’ the ‘temples.’ In Jer 48:45, where the passage is quoted, the word ‘corner’ is in the singular, and is in parallelism with ‘the crown of the head.’
And break down all the sons of tumult] In accordance with Jer 48:45 קַרְקַר (‘break down’) must be read קָדְקֹד (‘crown of the head’); cf. Psa 7:16; Psa 68:21.

and break down all the sons of Sheth (sons of tumult ASV & RV)] Heb. ‘sons of shחth.’ R.V. (‘tumult’) adopts a necessary emendation (שְׁאֵת for שֵׁת) suggested by Jer 48:45.

The two lines will therefore run:

And shall smite the temples [of the head] of Moab,
And the crown [of the head] of all the sons of tumult 1 [Note: Others would read ‘sons of lifting up,’ i.e. pride (שְׂאֵת)] .​

(v18) his enemies (which were his enemies ASV & RV)] Heb. has simply ‘his enemies,’ attached very awkwardly to the preceding words. Perhaps a word has been lost, and we should read ‘His enemies ——’ in contrast with the next clause: And Israel does valiantly.

(v19) An obscure verse, which is perhaps a later addition to the song. It appears to look forward to a Messianic prospect of universal dominion. Some think that Num_24:18-19 are both entirely corrupt beyond restoration.

shall dominion be exercised (shall one have dominion ASV & RV)] This and the following verb are impersonal. ‘And dominion will be exercised out of Jacob, and the remnant (of Israel’s enemies) will be destroyed out of the city.’ If the text is right, ‘out of the city’ is parallel with ‘out of Jacob.’ It is therefore the city of the conquerors, i.e. Zion.
​

Perhaps the passage is about the destruction of Moab since Balak was king of Moab and Balaam's words are about Balak's people and Israel; by the time that the Lord Jesus Christ was born Moab was long since gone.

Sometime during the Persian period Moab disappears from the extant historical record. Its territory was subsequently overrun by waves of tribes from northern Arabia, including the Kedarites and (later) the Nabataeans. In Nehemiah 4:1 the Arabs are mentioned instead of the Moabites as the allies of the Ammonites. Their region, however, continued to be known by its biblical name for some time. For example, when the Crusaders occupied the area, the castle they built to defend the eastern part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was called Krak des Moabites. (source)

 

[Brighten04]

So how do you think the wise men knew that the star meant the King of the Jews had been born. How did they know it was His star?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So how do you think the wise men knew that the star meant the King of the Jews had been born. How did they know it was His star?

It seems that the Magi (more likely astrologers than "wise men") were not Jewish and consequently not very familiar with old covenant scripture so they probably didn't know of Balaam's words so they wouldn't know about any star from reading about it in the old testament all they did was see a star and interpret it as a sign that a king was to be born.

Matthew 2:1-2 NASB Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, (2) "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."​

Magi, originally the name of a Median tribe, who, according to Herodotus, possessed the power of interpreting dreams. Their religion consisted in the worship of the heavenly bodies and of the elements. At this date the name implied a religious caste—the followers of Zoroaster, who were the astrologers of the East. Their tenets had spread widely; and as the East is a vague term, it is difficult to determine from what country these Magi came. A theory, stated below, connects them with Egypt, or at least with an Egyptian system of chronology. The common belief that the Magi were three in number is a mere tradition, which has been perpetuated by great painters. It was probably an inference from Mat 2:11. An equally groundless tradition has designated the Magi as kings, and has assigned names to them. Every reader of the Classics knows how common a failing it is with ancient annotators to state deductions from the text as proved facts. (Cambridge Bible Commentary)

 

[Brighten04]

Matthew 2:1-2 NASB Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the East arrived in Jerusalem, saying, (2) "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Note the magi were from the East, not from the South. Midian was in what is now called Saudi Arabia, Egypt is also South. East would be in the area of Persia. And there was a very large population of Jewish people in that area who would have been very familiar with the Torah. And, these wise men knew that the King of the Jews had been born, not just A king. And they knew it was His star that they saw. And to top it off our Father warned them in a dream not to return to Herod. These men were ecstatic that they had found their king. So again, how do you yourself think they knew what they knew about the birth of the King of the Jews?.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Note the magi were from the East, not from the South. Midian was in what is now called Saudi Arabia, Egypt is also South. East would be in the area of Persia. And there was a very large population of Jewish people in that area who would have been very familiar with the Torah. And, these wise men knew that the King of the Jews had been born, not just A king. And they knew it was His star that they saw. And to top it off our Father warned them in a dream not to return to Herod. These men were ecstatic that they had found their king. So again, how do you yourself think they knew what they knew about the birth of the King of the Jews?.

Babylon was in the east so were some Arab kingdoms so the Magi were likely from one of those areas. The question "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him" was posed within Herod's kingdom (and to himself and his courtiers) after the Magi had already been in Judea for a number of days (or weeks) and since Judea was filled with Jews and the king was to be born in Judea (the star having led them there) asking "where is the king of the Jews" is exactly what one would expect of them even if they had never heard of Jews before arriving in Judea.

 

[Hammster]

It happened.

Not if you read what it actually says. But you and others have shown that you can make anything fit into "prophecy".

 

[Brighten04]

Babylon was in the east so were some Arab kingdoms so the Magi were likely from one of those areas. The question "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him" was posed within Herod's kingdom (and to himself and his courtiers) after the Magi had already been in Judea for a number of days (or weeks) and since Judea was filled with Jews and the king was to be born in Judea (the star having led them there) asking "where is the king of the Jews" is exactly what one would expect of them even if they had never heard of Jews before arriving in Judea.

Yes I agree that that the wise men came from the East. But, they knew before they left the Eastern kingdom(s) that the King of the Jews had been born.They knew the star belonged to the King of the Jews. That is why they left the Eastern Kingdom. That is why they brought their precious gifts. They didn't find out after they got there. They KNEW who they were looking for. My question is How did they know before they left home, before they even arrived in Judea? You have not answered my question.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes I agree that that the wise men came from the East. But, they knew before they left the Eastern kingdom(s) that the King of the Jews had been born.They knew the star belonged to the King of the Jews. That is why they left the Eastern Kingdom. That is why they brought their precious gifts. They didn't find out after they got there. They KNEW who they were looking for. My question is How did they know before they left home, before they even arrived in Judea? You have not answered my question.

Matthew chapter two doesn't say what they knew before that arrived in Judea.

 

[psalms 91]

If they didnt now then why would they have told Herod they sought this king? Why would they have left home at all? Even withevidence staring at you you still deny even fulfilled prophecy

 

[MoreCoffee]

If they didn't now then why would they have told Herod they sought this king? Why would they have left home at all? Even with evidence staring at you you still deny even fulfilled prophecy

Because they were in Judea where there were Jews (mostly Jews in fact) and Herod was King of Judea so they likely thought he was the father of the one born to be king because Kings who have sons usually have the eldest of them become king after them. And they left home because they saw the star and interpreted it to be a portent of the birth of a king (presumably a rather special king because not every crown prince gets a star of his own). So the evidence is evidence of what they said when they were in Jerusalem among the Jews and they spoke then because the star that was leading them indicated that this was the land where the one born to be king would be and since it was JUDEA they interpreted this one born to be king to be king of the Jews since Judea is where Jews live.

The passage reads thus in the KJV:

Matthew 2:1-9 KJV (1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, (2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. (4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, (6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. (7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. (8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. (9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.​

The story is straight forward; the wise men may (or may not) have knows of the Jews in Judea when they left their homes and they may (or may not) have known at that time that the king who was born was to be king of the Jews but when they arrived in Judea and went to the capital city (Jerusalem) they (unsurprisingly) found the king of Judea living there and they went to him and asked "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". This was a quite sensible thing for them to do because they didn't know exactly where the king was born and they appear to have proceeded with their mission as if the new born king was the son of the current king (Herod). The chief priests and scribes consulted the holy scriptures and determined that the king was to be born in Bethlehem (not Jerusalem where the wise men came) and then Herod sent the wise men to search for the child and report back to him. Herod intentions were wicked and God warned the wise men not to return to Herod with the news of the child's location and identity. We all know the rest of the story but the material about the wise men ends with them leaving "by another way" so that Herod would not know who the child was. It is evident that the star appeared some time in the two years before they arrived because Herod's slaughter of the infants was of all the infants in Bethlehem 2 years and younger; anyway I think what I've posted is in keeping with what the passage says and only draws conclusions where the text tells us enough to warrant those conclusions.

 

[Hammster]

Keep in mind, Matthew was pretty good at identifying when prophecy was fulfilled.

 

[Brighten04]

Matthew chapter two doesn't say what they knew before that arrived in Judea.

Look brother, These wise men knew exactly who they were looking for before they left the East. How do I know? They packed gold and frankincense, and myrrh, before they left home. They did not buy these gifts after they got to Judea. They brought them with them with intent to present them to the King of the Jews. It is plain as the nose on your face.

 

[Brighten04]

Because they were in Judea where there were Jews (mostly Jews in fact) and Herod was King of Judea so they likely thought he was the father of the one born to be king because Kings who have sons usually have the eldest of them become king after them. And they left home because they saw the star and interpreted it to be a portent of the birth of a king (presumably a rather special king because not every crown prince gets a star of his own). So the evidence is evidence of what they said when they were in Jerusalem among the Jews and they spoke then because the star that was leading them indicated that this was the land where the one born to be king would be and since it was JUDEA they interpreted this one born to be king to be king of the Jews since Judea is where Jews live.

The passage reads thus in the KJV:

Matthew 2:1-9 KJV (1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, (2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. (4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, (6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. (7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. (8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. (9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.​

The story is straight forward; the wise men may (or may not) have knows of the Jews in Judea when they left their homes and they may (or may not) have known at that time that the king who was born was to be king of the Jews but when they arrived in Judea and went to the capital city (Jerusalem) they (unsurprisingly) found the king of Judea living there and they went to him and asked "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". This was a quite sensible thing for them to do because they didn't know exactly where the king was born and they appear to have proceeded with their mission as if the new born king was the son of the current king (Herod). The chief priests and scribes consulted the holy scriptures and determined that the king was to be born in Bethlehem (not Jerusalem where the wise men came) and then Herod sent the wise men to search for the child and report back to him. Herod intentions were wicked and God warned the wise men not to return to Herod with the news of the child's location and identity. We all know the rest of the story but the material about the wise men ends with them leaving "by another way" so that Herod would not know who the child was. It is evident that the star appeared some time in the two years before they arrived because Herod's slaughter of the infants was of all the infants in Bethlehem 2 years and younger; anyway I think what I've posted is in keeping with what the passage says and only draws conclusions where the text tells us enough to warrant those conclusions.

You still have not answered the question. It is ok to say you don't know brother. I must say this though, It is good to see you and Hammster agreeing withe each other for a change. LOL!
Let me pose the question this way. Why would the wise men pack up their camels with valuables, leave their own king and kingdom, travel months and months following a star, looking for just any king as you are suggesting they were doing?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because they were in Judea where there were Jews (mostly Jews in fact) and Herod was King of Judea so they likely thought he was the father of the one born to be king because Kings who have sons usually have the eldest of them become king after them. And they left home because they saw the star and interpreted it to be a portent of the birth of a king (presumably a rather special king because not every crown prince gets a star of his own). So the evidence is evidence of what they said when they were in Jerusalem among the Jews and they spoke then because the star that was leading them indicated that this was the land where the one born to be king would be and since it was JUDEA they interpreted this one born to be king to be king of the Jews since Judea is where Jews live.

The passage reads thus in the KJV:

Matthew 2:1-9 KJV (1) Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, (2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (3) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. (4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, (6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. (7) Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. (8) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. (9) When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.​

The story is straight forward; the wise men may (or may not) have knows of the Jews in Judea when they left their homes and they may (or may not) have known at that time that the king who was born was to be king of the Jews but when they arrived in Judea and went to the capital city (Jerusalem) they (unsurprisingly) found the king of Judea living there and they went to him and asked "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". This was a quite sensible thing for them to do because they didn't know exactly where the king was born and they appear to have proceeded with their mission as if the new born king was the son of the current king (Herod). The chief priests and scribes consulted the holy scriptures and determined that the king was to be born in Bethlehem (not Jerusalem where the wise men came) and then Herod sent the wise men to search for the child and report back to him. Herod intentions were wicked and God warned the wise men not to return to Herod with the news of the child's location and identity. We all know the rest of the story but the material about the wise men ends with them leaving "by another way" so that Herod would not know who the child was. It is evident that the star appeared some time in the two years before they arrived because Herod's slaughter of the infants was of all the infants in Bethlehem 2 years and younger; anyway I think what I've posted is in keeping with what the passage says and only draws conclusions where the text tells us enough to warrant those conclusions.

You still have not answered the question. It is ok to say you don't know brother. I must say this though, It is good to see you and Hammster agreeing withe each other for a change. LOL!
Let me pose the question this way. Why would the wise men pack up their camels with valuables, leave their own king and kingdom, travel months and months following a star, looking for just any king as you are suggesting they were doing?

The past paragraph in my post (the first quote above) answers precisely that question along with several other questions.

 

[Brighten04]

You don't know. Just say it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You don't know. Just say it.

Precisely what do you allege that I do not know?

 

[Brighten04]

Precisely what do you allege that I do not know?

You do not know the answer to the question asked.

Let me pose the question this way. Why would the wise men pack up their camels with valuables, leave their own king and kingdom, travel months and months following a star, looking for just any king as you are suggesting they were doing?

You cannot answer because you cannot believe prophecy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let me pose the question this way. Why would the wise men pack up their camels with valuables, leave their own king and kingdom, travel months and months following a star, looking for just any king as you are suggesting they were doing?

They left their homes because they were astrolgers who saw a new star and wanted to follow it; holy scripture does not give them any other motive for following the star than that it was the star of the one born to be king [of the Jews] and the magi wanted to follow it.

The story in Matthew 2:1-9 is straight forward; the wise men may (or may not) have known of the Jews in Judea when they left their homes and they may (or may not) have known at that time that the king who was born was to be king of the Jews but when they arrived in Judea and went to the capital city (Jerusalem) they (unsurprisingly) found the king of Judea living there and they went to him and asked "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". This was a quite sensible thing for them to do because they didn't know exactly where the king was born and they appear to have proceeded with their mission as if the new born king was the son of the current king (Herod). The chief priests and scribes consulted the holy scriptures and determined that the king was to be born in Bethlehem (not Jerusalem where the wise men came) and then Herod sent the wise men to search for the child and report back to him. Herod intentions were wicked and God warned the wise men not to return to Herod with the news of the child's location and identity. We all know the rest of the story but the material about the wise men ends with them leaving "by another way" so that Herod would not know who the child was. It is evident that the star appeared some time in the two years before they arrived because Herod's slaughter of the infants was of all the infants in Bethlehem 2 years and younger; anyway I think what I've posted is in keeping with what the passage says and only draws conclusions where the text tells us enough to warrant those conclusions.

 

[Brighten04]

ok. I got it. you don't know.