Early Christian writings along with the NT...

[Origen]

Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews was written in their language and then rather woodenly translated into Greek, which is the only way to account for its awkward and strained Greek

The Greek in the book of Hebrews is anything but wooden or strained. It is one of the best example of Greek in the N.T. Any scholar who knows Greek agrees on that point.

"And while everyone recognizes in Hebrews a Greek of unusual elegance (for the NT), rhetoric of exceptional polish, and an argument that suggests a powerful mind, few agree even on the precise genre of the composition, its structure, or the origin and elements of its symbolic world." Luke Timothy Johnson, Hebrews, The New Testament Library, p. 1

"From the letter itself we may glean that the author was (or wished to be seen as) male, Jewish, very well schooled in the OT and in the sort of Jewish philosophical thinking that was dominant especially in Alexandria, and an eloquent writer of sophisticated classical Greek, and that he was associated with Timothy (13:23)." Hebrews, R. T. France, in Hebrews–Revelation, The Expositor's Bible Commentary Vol. 13, pp. 21-22

"He was a master of elegant Greek who understood the principles of rhetoric and oral persuasion as taught in the ancient world." Gareth Lee Cockerill, The Epistle to the Hebrews, New International Greek Commentary on the New Testament, p. 2

"It is not necessary to adopt any particular view of the structure of Hebrews to appreciate its generally harmonious development, smooth rhetorical structure, and skillful use of Greek..." Paul Ellingworth, The Epistle to the Hebrews: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Commentary[/u], p. 12

"His writing has been regarded by many as the finest in the New Testament, both in its use of grammar and vocabulary, and in its style and knowledge of Greek rhetorical conventions." Peter T. O’Brien, The Letter to the Hebrews, Pillar New Testament commentary, p. 8

"The language of Hebrews constitutes the finest Greek in the NT, far superior to the Pauline standard both in vocabulary and sentence-building" (cf N. Turner, “The Style of the Epistle to the Hebrews,” in Grammar, 4:106–13; Wikgren, “Some Greek Idioms,” 145–53). William L. Lane, Hebrews 1–8, World Biblical Commentary, Vol. 47A, p. xlix

"He was capable of writing some of the finest Greek in the NT, far superior in vocabulary and sentence construction to that of Paul." William L. Lane, Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments p. 444

 

[Arsenios]

Lxx is a roman legion of 70.
A company against jews that divides greeks for war

LXX is an ancient Roman military unit? I mean, it is certainly in mathematical terms the NUMBER 70...

Is there somewhere I can read about that?

A.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew is arguing english transliterations that have nothing to do with the septugugu or TaNaKh.
The english translations used to convey a message is a weak argument.

I've yet to see Andrews research to show a study of greek to english in comparison to hebrew to english having any distinct difference.

Essentially,
motive to call the hebrew TaNaKh a deducted form devised by lying scribes is at heart anti semitism.

Elevating the greeks in place of hebrew culture is quite obviously a divisive thought.
Its historical fact that greeks were a tribe seeking knowledge to collect information in libraries while denying the power from which such knowledge comes in spirit.
2 Timothy 3:7

"Abstaining from an appearance of evil" , comes to mind.
1 Thessalonians 5:22

If in fact any jewish scribes were ever to lie.
Seems to me it wouldve been while writing a septugugu transliteration.
Something of which is very doubtful.
The 72 number is suspiciously like a marketing scheme of occultation used for centuries by Greco/ Roman conquerors to claim authority and superiority over a nation(s).

But what do I know

The English of the Greek Septuagint and English of the Hebrew Masoretic have significant differences, missing verses, quotations, the number of souls of Joseph's household that came to Egypt, different ages in the timeline, obscured prophecy passages etc..

If I am anti-semitic than so were the early Christians and church leaders, some of which noticed the significant alterations and objection of the new Hebrew canon of books

 

[Andrew]

LXX is an ancient Roman military unit? I mean, it is certainly in mathematical terms the NUMBER 70...

Is there somewhere I can read about that?

A.

Right? What about the 70 mentioned in the NT that were sent out to spread the word?

 

[pinacled]

Where is it written in the septugugu to hate an enemy?

Matthethw 5:43

 

[pinacled]

Right? What about the 70 mentioned in the NT that were sent out to spread the word?

Do you mean the 144 sent accorded in the account of yair(luke)?

 

[Andrew]

Do you mean the 144 sent accorded in the account of yair(luke)?

No the 70 sent out I believe in one of Pauls letters if I'm not mistaken

 

[Arsenios]

The Greek in the book of Hebrews is anything but wooden or strained. It is one of the best example of Greek in the N.T. Any scholar who knows Greek agrees on that point.

"And while (for the NT), rhetoric of exceptional polish, and an argument that suggests a powerful mind, FEW AGREE even on the precise genre of the composition, its structure, or the origin and elements of its symbolic world." Luke Timothy Johnson, Hebrews, The New Testament Library, p. 1

I agree with your first commentator here: Few agree on the basics, and I might add, none agree on who wrote it... What is needed, of course, would be a Synodia of pious English speaking Christians who are also speakers of both Hebrew AND Koine Greek... Who could discuss it in both languages... And produce a good paper on it... Translated, of course, from Hebrew and Koine Greek into into English for us...

The Eastern Orthodox identify the writer as Paul, written in Hebrew to the Hebrews, and translated fairly literally into Greek by someone lost in history to us... Hence the difficulty, ex-ecclesiologically at least, of identifying its style, genre of composition, origin, and the elements of its discourse, using great scholarship in a Neo-Scholastic effort, to make such identifications... We have, btw, identified Paul as its author for a couple thousand years now, and counting... But it seems that commentators with non-Greek names do not regard the martyria of 2000 years of historic Christianity to have any relevance to their efforts in Hebrews... I mean, one would think that such a consistent witness would be the default understanding unless clearly and decisively proven wrong...

But instead, FEW AGREE, and yet its authorship by Paul is rejected as mere historical artifact and curiosity...

So can you find some scholars with last names like Papadapoulos, Melitidis, or Leonidis etc to bolster your claims?

A.

 

[Arsenios]

What about the 70 mentioned in the NT that were sent out to spread the word?

Indeed - Among them the one named Stephan, in whose martyrdom Saul of Tarsus participated... Holding the garments of the killers with their stones who saw his beautiful face as that of an angel, and killed him...

There were two levels of Apostles from Christ - The 12, and the 70... The 12 (minus 1) were the original Synodia of Christ, a pattern of discipleship found to this day in the monastic traditions of Orthodoxy... The 70 were the rest sent out to Baptize all the Nations (Ethnoi - Peoples)... [initially sent out in Luke 10 to evangellize]

A.

 

[Origen]

I agree with your first commentator here: Few agree on the basics...

There are some problems with your comment.

First, you state "few agree on the basics." That is not what author wrote. Your rephrasing of the author's comment gives a false impression.

Second, I was only addressing one issue, the Greek in the book of Hebrews. That was my only focus which I made very clear.

Third, your claim that the Greek in the book of Hebrews is wooden and strained does not stand up to scrutiny among scholars who know the language.

Fourth, the same point concerning the Greek did not go unnoticed by the church fathers whose native language was Greek.

For example Origen (quoted by Eusebius):
“That the verbal style of the epistle entitled ‘To the Hebrews,’ is not rude like the language of the apostle, who acknowledged himself ‘rude in speech’ that is, in expression; but that its diction is purer Greek, any one who has the power to discern differences of phraseology will acknowledge." Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6.25.11–13

The fact is the Greek in the book of Hebrew is very good. Both scholars and church fathers whose native language was Greek agree.

 

[Andrew]

Please, just a question. What you do if\when the opposite is true?

If the opposite is true then the NT is full of flaws from Jesus' misquotation of Isaiah and Stephen the Martyr "75 souls from Jacobs household" (instead of 70 according to the Masoretic)

 

[Origen]

If the opposite is true then the NT is full of flaws from Jesus' misquotation of Isaiah and Stephen the Martyr "75 souls from Jacobs household" (instead of 70 according to the Masoretic)

Thank you for your answer. Sorry to bother you again but I am trying to understand your view clearly. I do not want to read anything into your position. Do you think that O.T. LXX quotes found in the N.T. are verbatim?

 

[Andrew]

Thank you for your answer. Sorry to bother you but do you think that O.T. LXX quotes found in the N.T. are verbatim?

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written...

...The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind
Luke 4:17

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind
Isaiah 61:1 LXX

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:1 Masoretic

 

[Origen]

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind
Luke 4:17

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind
Isaiah 61:1 LXX

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:1 Masoretic

Yes I know, but asking about something else. I was asking how the N.T. quotes the LXX. Thanks

 

[Andrew]

Yes I know, but asking about something else. I was asking how the N.T. quotes the LXX. Thanks

He is reading a scroll in a synagogue?

He was likely reading from an original Hebrew that the Greek was translated from, the Masoretic comes from a later Hebrew Text, the originals no longer exist

 

[Origen]

He is reading a scroll in a synagogue?

He was likely reading from an original Hebrew that the Greek was translated from, the Masoretic comes from a later Hebrew Text, the originals no longer exist

Again, yes I know. Anyway thanks for you time.

 

[Andrew]

Again, yes I know. Anyway thanks for you time.

I don't get it, I provided the quote in Luke and compared it to Isaiah from the LXX, its verbatim albeit rendered English as was the Masoretic quote I provided where "recovery of sight to the blind" is replaced with "opening of the prisons of them who are bound"

Keep in mind that Jesus was going around healing the blind

 

[pinacled]

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written...

...The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind
Luke 4:17

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind
Isaiah 61:1 LXX

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:1 Masoretic

עֵינַ֣יִם
Eyes
Yeshayahu(isaiah)
42

לִפְקֹ֖חַ עֵינַ֣יִם עִוְר֑וֹת לְהוֹצִ֤יא מִמַּסְגֵּר֙ אַסִּ֔יר מִבֵּ֥ית כֶּ֖לֶא יֹ֥שְׁבֵי חֹֽשֶׁךְ׃

Opening eyes deprived of light, Rescuing prisoners from confinement, From the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

 

[Origen]

I don't get it, I provided the quote in Luke and compared it to Isaiah from the LXX, its verbatim albeit rendered English as was the Masoretic quote I provided where "recovery of sight to the blind" is replaced with "opening of the prisons of them who are bound"

Keep in mind that Jesus was going around healing the blind

It is close but it is not verbatim. You left out two phrases from your Luke citation: (1) "to set at liberty those who are oppressed" (Luke 4:18) and (2) "to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor" (Luke 4:19). Both are part of the text, quoted by Jesus, and important.

The only way to really tell if the two are verbatim is to examine the whole Greek text.

Here is the text from Isaiah 61:1-2:
Πνεῦμα κυρίου ἐπ̓ ἐμέ οὗ εἵνεκεν ἔχρισέν με εὐαγγελίσασθαι πτωχοῖς ἀπέσταλκέν με
ἰάσασθαι τοὺς συντετριμμένους τῇ καρδίᾳ
κηρύξαι αἰχμαλώτοις ἄφεσιν
καὶ τυφλοῖς ἀνάβλεψιν
καλέσαι ἐνιαυτὸν κυρίου δεκτόν

Here is the text from Luke 4:18:
Πνεῦμα κυρίου ἐπ’ ἐμὲ οὗ εἵνεκεν ἔχρισέν με εὐαγγελίσασθαι πτωχοῖς ἀπέσταλκέν με
ἰάσασθαι τοὺς συντετριμμένους τῇ καρδίᾳ
κηρύξαι αἰχμαλώτοις ἄφεσιν
καὶ τυφλοῖς ἀνάβλεψιν
ἀποστεῖλαι τεθραυσμένους ἐν ἀφέσει
κηρύξαι ἐνιαυτὸν κυρίου δεκτόν


The first thing to note is the part in red. That is not found Isaiah 61:1 but comes from Isaiah 58:6.
Also which it is the same verb they are difference forms, hence they are not the same.
The verb ἀπόστελλε in Isaiah 58:6 is a 2nd person singular active imperative.
The verb ἀποστεῖλαι in Luke 4:18 is a aorist active infinite.

The second thing to note are the parts in blue. The verb in Isaiah 61:2 is καλέω while the verb in Luke 4:19 is κηρύσσω.
καλέω (Isaiah 61:2)
κηρύσσω (Luke 4:19)
Clearly the verbs are difference.

 

[pinacled]

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written...

...The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind
Luke 4:17

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind
Isaiah 61:1 LXX

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isaiah 61:1 Masoretic

"Blessed are the meek....."
יַעַן מָשַׁח
Sight

Yeshayahu 61
א רוּחַ אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, עָלָי--יַעַן מָשַׁח יְהוָה אֹתִי לְבַשֵּׂר עֲנָוִים, שְׁלָחַנִי לַחֲבֹשׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי-לֵב, לִקְרֹא לִשְׁבוּיִם דְּרוֹר, וְלַאֲסוּרִים פְּקַח-קוֹחַ.1

The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to bring good tidings unto the humble; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the eyes to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre