"Catholic Answers" Why Did Luther's Heresy Persist?

[Lamb]

Would you be so kind as to help others reading and myself to understand more about history.

In the papal letter there is a reference to an emporer of germany.
Is the emporer the germaniac bishop opposed by luther in letter?

The letter is written to Luther. Are you sure you read it?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

were successfully converting Eastern Rite Catholics to the EOC

How were they doing that?

 

[Josiah]

Again...

Tim Staples and the leading RCC apologetic site "Catholic Answers" gives the definitive answer to why Luther's heresy has persisted...

Several observations about this "answer"....

1. There's no mention of what Luther taught that was heresy.... What the RCC condemned was his teaching that Jesus is the Savior (not self, not now or ever, not in full or in part) - and he made it clear that he we speaking of narrow justiication (what in post Vatican II Catholicism is called "initial grace") and the RCC made it clear it understood how Luther meant it. THAT is what Luther said that the RCC was so horrified over that it split itself in the third largest split in Christian history. But (as is nearly always the case with Catholic Answers), it never says what the "heresy" is. IMO, the reason for this very obvious evasion is that the audience they are (in part) trying to reach would be horrified by the RCC's condemnation of that.


2. A huge point is made that sound theology is defined by having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - not 6 or 8 but 7. A denomination MUST define "Sacrament" as the post-Trent RCC does and MUST number such as exactly SEVEN or it is heretical. This is given as the keystone of theology. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Resurrection. Not salvation. Not mercy. Having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and defining the word "Sacrament" exactly as the RCC now does. Hum..... Tim goes on to say THIS is why the RCC is closer to the EOC than to Luther (although Lutherans don't dogmatically number them AT ALL, and the only one of the "seven" Luther personally indicated is not a "Sacrament" is marriage). So, the number SEVEN is the key, the singular most important thing in Christianity, the unifying point, the Catholic apologetist insists. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Savior. Hum.... Sometimes when you read or listen to "Catholic Answers" - THE esteemed Catholic apologetics site - you learn far more than you'd expect.


3. Once again, we get the point perpetually made and very central to all Catholic apologetics, "The singular, individual RCC is in unity with just itself" point - and this PROVES it must be right and the singular denomination of God. This point that the RCC is in unity with ITSELF but no other is a constant at Catholic Answers, the "proof" pretty much for every point. Here Tim specifically rebukes the EOC because "it lacks the unity of the RCC" since there are minor (non - dogmatic) differences between the various national churches (no more than among the various rites in the RCC but never mind...). Because the Episcopal Church in the USA is ONLY in full unity with about 50 other denominations PROVES its wrong and the the RCC which is in full unity with NO OTHER, not ONE other - proves it HAS to be authentic, true, authoritative and correct. It has to be one of the most absurd, most laughable apologetics ever made but a constant at Catholic Answers.


IMO, Luther's "heresy" that Jesus is the Savior has persisted because it's true and the Holy Spirit has empowered it. The RCC attempts to muddy that up with a lot of semi-Pelagianism and synergism, a lot of mixing of Law and Gospel, a lot of confusing and entangling, a lot of ignoring the Council of Orange, is perhaps the problem. I rejoice that the RCC has not lost the Gospel (even if it calls it "persisting heresy") just turned what should be the clearest of all teachings into its most confusing, and has displaced it with a doctrine it considers more important - that the denomination dogmatically states there are exactly SEVEN Sacraments, and the "evidence" of being correct not Scripture but that the denomination has zero unity, is in full unity with NONE, agreeing only with the one self sees in the mirror (even that only in those areas where self alone currently states that self should agree with self concerning).




.

 

[pinacled]

In

October 31 is not Luther's birthday.



.

The letter is written to Luther. Are you sure you read it?

Luther is the emperor?

 

[Lamb]

In
Luther is the emperor?

Maybe the wiki will help you out more

Exsurge Domine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

" Exsurge Domine (Latin for 'Arise, O Lord') is a papal bull promulgated on 15 June 1520 by Pope Leo X. It was written in response to the teachings of Martin Luther which opposed the views of the Church. It censured forty-one propositions extracted from Luther's Ninety-five Theses and subsequent writings, and threatened him with excommunication unless he recanted within a sixty-day period commencing upon the publication of the bull in Saxony and its neighboring regions. Luther refused to recant and responded instead by composing polemical tracts lashing out at the papacy and by publicly burning a copy of the bull on 10 December 1520. As a result, Luther was excommunicated in 1521. "

 

[pinacled]

The letter is written to Luther. Are you sure you read it?

Yes I read it.
And asked about the supposed emperor addressed in the letter.
There is a specific reason I asked the question that pertains to investigating the relevant history involving Luther's birth

Maximilian I | Holy Roman emperor, Biography & Legacy | Britannica

Maximilian I was the archduke of Austria, German king, and Holy Roman emperor (1493–1519) who made his family, the Habsburgs, dominant in 16th-century Europe. He added vast lands to the traditional Austrian holdings, securing the Netherlands by his own marriage, Hungary and Bohemia by treaty and

www.britannica.com

 

[Lamb]

Yes I read it.
And asked about the supposed emperor addressed in the letter.
There is a specific reason I asked the question that pertains to investigating the relevant history involving Luther's birth

Maximilian I | Holy Roman emperor, Biography & Legacy | Britannica

Maximilian I was the archduke of Austria, German king, and Holy Roman emperor (1493–1519) who made his family, the Habsburgs, dominant in 16th-century Europe. He added vast lands to the traditional Austrian holdings, securing the Netherlands by his own marriage, Hungary and Bohemia by treaty and

www.britannica.com

The emperor is not the topic of this thread. Why are you going off onto tangents?

 

[pinacled]

The emperor is not the topic of this thread. Why are you going off onto tangents?

Tangent or not I'm focusing on the topic of Luther's alleged heresy.
Because history reveals its secrets in uncertainty.
Below in brackets is an excerpt for historical relevance to Luther's protestation of power used to consolidate more power. Ie greed/bribery

[ Charles VIII’s invasion of Italy (1494) upset the European balance of power. Maximilian allied himself with the pope, Spain, Venice, and Milan in the so-called Holy League ]

 

[Josiah]

I'm focusing on the topic of Luther's alleged heresy.

Perhaps you didn't even view the Catholic Answers video that is the topic of this thread. IF you had, you'd note the speaker never identifies ANY "heresy" but DOES indicate that to be correct (and not a heretic) one must define the word "Sacrament" EXACTLY as one (and only one) denomination does (and that only currently) AND identify exactly SEVEN Sacraments (6 makes you a heretic, 8 makes you a heretic). Luther never officially numbered them and never gave any official definition so Catholic Answers can't consider him a heretic for that.


See post #1 and 183.




.

 

[pinacled]

Perhaps you didn't even view the Catholic Answers video that is the topic of this thread. IF you had, you'd note the speaker never identifies ANY "heresy" but DOES indicate that to be correct (and not a heretic) one must define the word "Sacrament" EXACTLY as one (and only one) denomination does (and that only currently) AND identify exactly SEVEN Sacraments (6 makes you a heretic, 8 makes you a heretic). Luther never officially numbered them and never gave any official definition so Catholic Answers can't consider him a heretic for that.


See post #1 and 183.




.

I watched the video and noticed a format as you have.
Whatever the 7 heads/sacraments are is mute.
Thankyou for the topically interesting discussion.

The alleged heresy is what I found to be revealing with a look at historical aspects of the period.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Tangent or not I'm focusing on the topic of Luther's alleged heresy.
Because history reveals its secrets in uncertainty.
Below in brackets is an excerpt for historical relevance to Luther's protestation of power used to consolidate more power. Ie greed/bribery

[ Charles VIII’s invasion of Italy (1494) upset the European balance of power. Maximilian allied himself with the pope, Spain, Venice, and Milan in the so-called Holy League ]

Below in brackets is an excerpt from the papal letter.
Or subtle threat far as I can see.

[ For after the empire had been transferred by the Roman Church from the Greeks to these same Germans, our predecessors and we always took the Church’s advocates and defenders from among them. Indeed it is certain that these Germans, truly germane to the Catholic faith, have always been the bitterest opponents of heresies, as witnessed by those commendable constitutions of the German emperors in behalf of the Church’s independence, freedom, and the expulsion and extermination of all heretics from Germany. ]

 

[pinacled]

The emperor is not the topic of this thread. Why are you going off onto tangents?

The german emperor at the time of Luther's protestation is very much relevant to his birth in spirit.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Perhaps you didn't even view the Catholic Answers video that is the topic of this thread. IF you had, you'd note the speaker never identifies ANY "heresy" but DOES indicate that to be correct (and not a heretic) one must define the word "Sacrament" EXACTLY as one (and only one) denomination does (and that only currently) AND identify exactly SEVEN Sacraments (6 makes you a heretic, 8 makes you a heretic). Luther never officially numbered them and never gave any official definition so Catholic Answers can't consider him a heretic for that.


See post #1 and 183.




.

Essentially heresy is an example of treason by definitive authorities of Rome at the time.
Ie papal authority that sided with germanic conquest of resources amongst the European continent.
Papal authority was also using a form of clout to intimidate any further dissidence against a consolidation of power that was procured via trading routes on water and land.
Ie the old adage of 7 seas

 

[pinacled]

Essentially heresy is an example of treason by definitive authorities of Rome at the time.
Ie papal authority that sided with germanic conquest of resources amongst the European continent.
Papal authority was also using a form of clout to intimidate any further dissidence against a consolidation of power that was procured via trading routes on water and land.
Ie the old adage of 7 seas

But what do I know

 

[pinacled]

Perhaps you didn't even view the Catholic Answers video that is the topic of this thread. IF you had, you'd note the speaker never identifies ANY "heresy" but DOES indicate that to be correct (and not a heretic) one must define the word "Sacrament" EXACTLY as one (and only one) denomination does (and that only currently) AND identify exactly SEVEN Sacraments (6 makes you a heretic, 8 makes you a heretic). Luther never officially numbered them and never gave any official definition so Catholic Answers can't consider him a heretic for that.


See post #1 and 183.




.

Sacramento is code for trade routes.

 

[pinacled]

What complete nonsense. Catholics do not celebrate Luther's birth. Maybe instead of making false claims about history you should study it more?

History:
Luther is likely a figment of an institution that celebrates death.

 

[pinacled]

Tim Staples and the leading RCC apologetic site "Catholic Answers" gives the definitive answer to why Luther's heresy has persisted...

Several observations about this "answer"....

1. There's no mention of what Luther taught that was heresy.... What the RCC condemned was his teaching that Jesus is the Savior (not self, not now or ever, not in full or in part) - and he made it clear that he we speaking of narrow justiication (what in post Vatican II Catholicism is called "initial grace") and the RCC made it clear it understood how Luther meant it. THAT is what Luther said that the RCC was so horrified over that it split itself in the third largest split in Christian history. But (as is nearly always the case with Catholic Answers), it never says what the "heresy" is. IMO, the reason for this very obvious evasion is that the audience they are (in part) trying to reach would be horrified by the RCC's condemnation of that.


2. A huge point is made that sound theology is defined by having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - not 6 or 8 but 7. A denomination MUST define "Sacrament" as the post-Trent RCC does and MUST number such as exactly SEVEN. This is given as the keystone of theology. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Resurrection. Not salvation. Not mercy. Having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and defining the word "Sacrament" exactly as the RCC now does. Hum..... Tim goes on to say THIS is why the RCC is closer to the EOC than to Luther (although Lutherans don't dogmatically number them AT ALL, and the only one of the "seven" Luther personally indicated is not a "Sacrament" is marriage). So, the number SEVEN is the key, the singular most important thing in Christianity, the unifying point. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Savior. Hum.... Sometimes when you read or listen to "Catholic Answers" - THE esteemed Catholic apologetics site - you learn far more than you'd expect.


3. Once again, we get the point perpetually made and very central to all Catholic apologetics, "The singular, individual RCC is in unity with just itself" point - and this PROVES it must be right and the singular denomination of God. This point that the RCC is in unity with ITSELF but no other is a constant at Catholic Answers, the "proof" pretty much for every point. Here Tim specifically rebukes the EOC because "it lacks the unity of the RCC" since there are minor (non - dogmatic) differences between the various national churches (no more than among the various rites in the RCC but never mind...). Because the Episcopal Church in the USA is ONLY in full unity with about 50 other denominations PROVES its wrong and the the RCC which is in full unity with NO OTHER, not ONE other - proves it HAS to be authentic, true, authoritative and correct. It has to be one of the most absurd, most laughable apologetics ever made but a constant at CA.


IMO, Luther's "heresy" that Jesus is the Savior has persisted because it's true and the Holy Spirit has empowered it. The RCC attempts to muddy that up with a lot of semi-Pelagianism and synergism, a lot of mixing of Law and Gospel, a lot of confusing and entangling, a lot of ignoring the Council of Orange, is perhaps the problem. I rejoice that the RCC has not lost the Gospel (even if it calls it "persisting heresy") just turned what should be the clearest of all teachings into its most confusing, and has displaced it with a doctrine it considers more important - that the denomination dogmatically states there are exactly SEVEN Sacraments, and the "evidence" of being correct not Scripture but that the denomination has zero unity, is in full unity with NONE, agreeing only with the one self sees in the mirror (even that only in those areas where self alone currently states that self should agree with self concerning).




.

In consideration of historical records.
Martin Luther's challenge of papal authority brought forth and shed light upon a period of darkness known as a dark age.
After which a servant of brittany issued what is now called the king james version bible.

Before mass production by print and press there were very few who had access to the holy writ. And fewer were literate due to the language differences amongst nations abroad.

History:
Linguistics along with topographical variants reveal much in the spirit.

 

[Josiah]

Martin Luther's challenge of papal authority brought forth and shed light upon a period of darkness known as a dark age.

Absurd.

"The Dark Ages" in the West is generally considered to be roughly 500-1000 AD. Luther wasn't even born for roughly FIVE CENTURIES after that ended; absurd to insist some "challenge" he made caused that.

After which a servant of brittany issued what is now called the king james version bible.

Luther had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the KJV. That was an ENGLISH translation (not the first, probably not the best, but the most popular) which was done LONG after Luther had died. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Luther or the video.

Luther did write a translation of the Bible but it was in GERMAN and long before the KJY.

Before mass production by print and press there were very few who had access to the holy writ.

Both pre-date Luther. Neither has anything to do with the video or heresy or Catholic Answers.




.

 

[pinacled]

Absurd.

"The Dark Ages" in the West is generally considered to be roughly 500-1000 AD. Luther wasn't even born for roughly FIVE CENTURIES after that ended; absurd to insist some "challenge" he made caused that.







Luther had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the KJV. That was an ENGLISH translation (not the first, probably not the best, but the most popular) which was done LONG after Luther had died. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Luther or the video.

Luther did write a translation of the Bible but it was in GERMAN and long before the KJY.






Both pre-date Luther. Neither has anything to do with the video or heresy or Catholic Answers.




.

While I typically avoid wiki.
The material represented is close to what I read decades ago in school and books.

Dark Ages (historiography) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Printing press - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

[ The "Dark Ages" is a historical periodization traditionally referring to the Middle Ages (c. 5th–15th century) that asserts that a demographic, cultural, and economic deterioration occurred in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.]

In the the above brackets is an excerpt from the link.
The 15th century where in which Luther's birth is in yr 1483 during the dark ages before a certain freedom was allowed to liberate iliteracy from a certain demographic.
Which is also the same century that a german designed printing press arrived.


Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Again...

Tim Staples and the leading RCC apologetic site "Catholic Answers" gives the definitive answer to why Luther's heresy has persisted...

Several observations about this "answer"....

1. There's no mention of what Luther taught that was heresy.... What the RCC condemned was his teaching that Jesus is the Savior (not self, not now or ever, not in full or in part) - and he made it clear that he we speaking of narrow justiication (what in post Vatican II Catholicism is called "initial grace") and the RCC made it clear it understood how Luther meant it. THAT is what Luther said that the RCC was so horrified over that it split itself in the third largest split in Christian history. But (as is nearly always the case with Catholic Answers), it never says what the "heresy" is. IMO, the reason for this very obvious evasion is that the audience they are (in part) trying to reach would be horrified by the RCC's condemnation of that.


2. A huge point is made that sound theology is defined by having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - not 6 or 8 but 7. A denomination MUST define "Sacrament" as the post-Trent RCC does and MUST number such as exactly SEVEN or it is heretical. This is given as the keystone of theology. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Resurrection. Not salvation. Not mercy. Having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and defining the word "Sacrament" exactly as the RCC now does. Hum..... Tim goes on to say THIS is why the RCC is closer to the EOC than to Luther (although Lutherans don't dogmatically number them AT ALL, and the only one of the "seven" Luther personally indicated is not a "Sacrament" is marriage). So, the number SEVEN is the key, the singular most important thing in Christianity, the unifying point, the Catholic apologetist insists. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Savior. Hum.... Sometimes when you read or listen to "Catholic Answers" - THE esteemed Catholic apologetics site - you learn far more than you'd expect.


3. Once again, we get the point perpetually made and very central to all Catholic apologetics, "The singular, individual RCC is in unity with just itself" point - and this PROVES it must be right and the singular denomination of God. This point that the RCC is in unity with ITSELF but no other is a constant at Catholic Answers, the "proof" pretty much for every point. Here Tim specifically rebukes the EOC because "it lacks the unity of the RCC" since there are minor (non - dogmatic) differences between the various national churches (no more than among the various rites in the RCC but never mind...). Because the Episcopal Church in the USA is ONLY in full unity with about 50 other denominations PROVES its wrong and the the RCC which is in full unity with NO OTHER, not ONE other - proves it HAS to be authentic, true, authoritative and correct. It has to be one of the most absurd, most laughable apologetics ever made but a constant at Catholic Answers.


IMO, Luther's "heresy" that Jesus is the Savior has persisted because it's true and the Holy Spirit has empowered it. The RCC attempts to muddy that up with a lot of semi-Pelagianism and synergism, a lot of mixing of Law and Gospel, a lot of confusing and entangling, a lot of ignoring the Council of Orange, is perhaps the problem. I rejoice that the RCC has not lost the Gospel (even if it calls it "persisting heresy") just turned what should be the clearest of all teachings into its most confusing, and has displaced it with a doctrine it considers more important - that the denomination dogmatically states there are exactly SEVEN Sacraments, and the "evidence" of being correct not Scripture but that the denomination has zero unity, is in full unity with NONE, agreeing only with the one self sees in the mirror (even that only in those areas where self alone currently states that self should agree with self concerning).




.

What are the 7 sacraments?