RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Doug]

[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Israel or the world?

Verse 18 says they had to believe on his name for eternal life John 20:31
If Israel received Christ he would have established the kingdom on earth and the world would come to God through Israel. Isaiah 60:3

 

[Doug]

That’s 4 references to Jesus as savior of all nations, tribes and tongues (the world), rather than just Israel, in the first 3 chapters. While it might be fun to go through every chapter looking for hints of Jesus Christ as Savior of all people groups, I think that I have made my point that one need not wait for Paul’s Epistles to learn that Jesus is Christ of all people groups and not just one line of biological descent.

That the world would be saved was in prophecy Psalm 98:2-3
That Christ would die for all apart from Israel, by faith in Christ alone and the cross, was a mystery revealed to Paul.

 

[Doug]

You have entirely missed what Jesus is saying in John 10 as well as John 17.

Your last sentence says nothing regarding ransom for all or for some.

My last sentence:
"Let me say, if you believe that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification and imputes his righteousness to us then we are in accord, we are discussing doctrine."
No it has nothing to do with ransom for all, I was saying our discussion was to clarify understanding of the Bible, but what is essential to agree upon is that we are justified by faith in Christ and his blood.

 

[Doug]

Point understood, but IMO there is a difference, a critical one.

IF I accept that Jesus died for all, then I can be 100% certain He died for me. And thus, my faith is grasping something that exists for me. But if Jesus only died for a FEW, a minority (and simple odds are, probably not me) then how can I know (or even guess) that I'M among those for whom atonement has been made? I may have faith in Christ but that's entirely useless if Christ has nothing to offer me.

Universal has that one (IMO critical) advantage: I know Jesus died for ME (since I'm included in EVERYONE). If He only died for some minority of people (and evidently God didn't list who's in that number) then no one can actually know if Jesus did a thing for them, has anything to offer them.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours....


Josiah




.

I just saw this, allow me to say, I think you misunderstood what I was saying so let me reprint my post and highlight my statements:

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Revealed to Paul, was the mystery, that the sacrificial death of Jesus was a ransom for all who would believe, both Jew and Gentile.

This mystery was not made known to the prophets of the old testament scriptures, neither to the twelve disciples. This mystery was hid in God and not made known to any before being revealed to Paul (Ephesians 3:5 Ephesians 3:9).

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

What was made known in Matthew and Mark above, was that Christ gave his life to ransom many, not all. Christ gave his life to ransom Israel alone, the many. Christ redeemed the iniquities of Israel committed under the old testament (Hebrews 9:15).

Only the mystery revealed the ransom was for all, and was only testified in due time, when revealed to Paul.

I was saying that in the four gospels it was revealed that Christ would ransom many, the many being Israel and Gentiles who would believe on Jesus as Messiah through Israel, but to Paul in this dispensation God revealed it was for all without going through Israel.

 

[Particular]

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The existing fold is the believing Israel of God, the little flock. The other sheep are the little flock that has been scattered into other countries. The believing remnant scattered into other countries, will be all gathered together, to form one nation, one fold; Israel and Judah will be one nation. This is not about the church, the body of Christ, it is about the believing remnant of Israel who only believed on the name of Jesus as Christ, Son of God.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The Israel of God, the children of the promise, have always been from every nation, tribe and tongue. Paul tells us this. Therefore, your attempt to split God's work into only Israel is a false dichotomy, which you invent to ignore what Jesus declares regarding all children whom God has given him. I fully reject your false dichotomy.

 

[Doug]

The Israel of God, the children of the promise, have always been from every nation, tribe and tongue. Paul tells us this. Therefore, your attempt to split God's work into only Israel is a false dichotomy, which you invent to ignore what Jesus declares regarding all children whom God has given him. I fully reject your false dichotomy.

God has a purpose for the remnant of Israel and the body of Christ.
Christ redeemed Israel to reconcile the earth....the body of Christ reconciles heavenly places.
They will be gathered together in one in the future.

 

[sunshinemama91]

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The existing fold is the believing Israel of God, the little flock. The other sheep are the little flock that has been scattered into other countries. The believing remnant scattered into other countries, will be all gathered together, to form one nation, one fold; Israel and Judah will be one nation. This is not about the church, the body of Christ, it is about the believing remnant of Israel who only believed on the name of Jesus as Christ, Son of God.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

So does that mean that no one outside of the true Israelites and Judeans are saved? Because if so, I dont think I'm in that category.

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[Doug]

So does that mean that no one outside of the true Israelites and Judeans are saved? Because if so, I dont think I'm in that category.

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No Israel was temporarily set aside.....we are saved in this dispensation by grace, by the cross and faith in Christ. After this dispensation and our gathering unto him, Israel will enter the tribulation and will once again preach the gospel of the kingdom, the remnant of Israel will be saved along with Gentile nations that blessed Israel to enter the kingdom on earth.

 

[Particular]

No Israel was temporarily set aside.....we are saved in this dispensation by grace, by the cross and faith in Christ. After this dispensation and our gathering unto him, Israel will enter the tribulation and will once again preach the gospel of the kingdom, the remnant of Israel will be saved along with Gentile nations that blessed Israel to enter the kingdom on earth.

Dispensationalism is such a compartmentalized system. To make it work you have to force God into many different actions based on times and ages.
Covenant theology is so much more connected with scripture. It's why I left dispensationalism. There were too many irreconcilable pieces.

 

[Doug]

Dispensationalism is such a compartmentalized system. To make it work you have to force God into many different actions based on times and ages.
Covenant theology is so much more connected with scripture. It's why I left dispensationalism. There were too many irreconcilable pieces.

But in covenant theology does it not say Israel and all their promises and covenants have been given to the church, the body of Christ?

 

[Particular]

But in covenant theology does it not say Israel and all their promises and covenants have been given to the church, the body of Christ?

The covenants all relate to the coming of the promised one who will save his people from their sins.
God's people are the people of the promise. From Jacob (Israel) the promised one would come. God would keep Israel's offspring so that the root of David could be revealed. The nation we know as "Israel" today has no connection to the root of David, the promised one. If they did, they wouldn't be so amazingly wicked in their sins.
We pray for the repentance of all people's, knowing that God chooses from every nation, tribe and tongue, but there is nothing special about modern day Israel as a nation. The nation of Israel is not walking with God at all.
There are some who trace their heritage to Jacob, who are redeemed just as there are se from every nation, tribe and tongue.
God has always redeemed whom he chooses by his gracious favor.

 

[Doug]

The covenants all relate to the coming of the promised one who will save his people from their sins.
God's people are the people of the promise. From Jacob (Israel) the promised one would come. God would keep Israel's offspring so that the root of David could be revealed. The nation we know as "Israel" today has no connection to the root of David, the promised one. If they did, they wouldn't be so amazingly wicked in their sins.
We pray for the repentance of all people's, knowing that God chooses from every nation, tribe and tongue, but there is nothing special about modern day Israel as a nation. The nation of Israel is not walking with God at all.
There are some who trace their heritage to Jacob, who are redeemed just as there are se from every nation, tribe and tongue.
God has always redeemed whom he chooses by his gracious favor.

I agree Israel has temporarily been set aside, but it sounds like you are saying we are under covenant as being the people of God.
Will Israel receive the new covenant at the return of Christ?
Are all the passages speaking of Israel spoken of the church, the body of Christ?

 

[Particular]

I agree Israel has temporarily been set aside, but it sounds like you are saying we are under covenant as being the people of God.
Will Israel receive the new covenant at the return of Christ?
Are all the passages speaking of Israel spoken of the church, the body of Christ?

Israel is the Redeemed and Adopted children of the promise. The New Covenant is for us whom God has chosen. It is not for a secular nation called "Israel." That nation is a nation that has no place in the Kingdom of God. However, people who trace their lineage to Israel (Jacob) may be children of the Promise and they will, as we have, be adopted into the Kingdom and redeemed.

Unfortunately, dispensationalism creates a second means of salvation by means of physical lineage, as though genetic connection to Jacob means that human can be redeemed by a different "dispensation" than gentiles. This thinking is not supported in scripture. It is a modern day twist that causes more confusion and promotes a false dichotomy.

 

[Doug]

Unfortunately, dispensationalism creates a second means of salvation by means of physical lineage

I am not sure what you are saying....the Bible says that not all Israel is Israel...the Israel of God are those of faith.

 

[Doug]

That nation is a nation that has no place in the Kingdom of God

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The nation that will be given the kingdom of God is the believing remnant of Israel, it will be taken from Israel.

 

[Doug]

The New Covenant is for us whom God has chosen.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The new covenant according to this verse is for Israel, not the body of Christ, which is a new creature (Galatians 6:15), a new man (Ephesians 2:15).

 

[Particular]

Matthew 11:25-27 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

[Particular]

Matthew 12:18-21 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

 

[Doug]

Matthew 12:18-21 “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

Why did you cite this passage?