RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Doug]

John 10 speaks of who will be saved. We are in agreement here in this thread that not all will be saved.

What we also have to look at is this...there is a verse that God desires all men to be saved. We know that not all will be saved because scriptures tells us that. But it does say that God desires all men to be saved.

So with that in mind we should realize that if the ransom wasn't for all men then God didn't really desire for all men to be saved. It makes God into a liar. But God doesn't lie.

First off, let me say I think it got lost that I said that Jesus did ransom all and I quoted 1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
All I am saying is that that was not revealed to the disciples in the earthly ministry of Christ, it can not be found in Matthew,Mark, Luke or John. Jesus only came to fulfill the promises made to the fathers of Israel and to, by his death, redeem the transgressions of Israel.
John 10 was for Israel.
It was revealed to Paul that his death was for ALL.

 

[atpollard]

John 10 was for Israel.

You should reread John 10 more carefully.
Throughout his ministry, Jesus gave clear hints that he was sent to Israel first, but his message was for all nations.

 

[Particular]

You should reread John 10 more carefully.
Throughout his ministry, Jesus gave clear hints that he was sent to Israel first, but his message was for all nations.

John 17 shows that Jesus is speaking about the entire world, not just Israel.

John 17:10,13-15,20-21,24-26
All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

It is obvious in this prayer that Jesus ransomed those the Father has given him...all of them...and that the Father has given Jesus people from all over the world. Therefore, John 10 is speaking to all whom the Father has given Jesus from all over the world. Every nation, tribe and tongue.

 

[Doug]

You should reread John 10 more carefully.
Throughout his ministry, Jesus gave clear hints that he was sent to Israel first, but his message was for all nations.

Jesus was talking about his sheep Israel in John 10.
Please show me a message for the church, the body of Christ,
The gospel Jesus sent the disciples out to preach to the nations was the gospel of the kingdom, the earthly kingdom in which the Gentiles would come to God through Israel.

 

[Doug]

John 17 shows that Jesus is speaking about the entire world, not just Israel.

John 17:10,13-15,20-21,24-26
All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

It is obvious in this prayer that Jesus ransomed those the Father has given him...all of them...and that the Father has given Jesus people from all over the world. Therefore, John 10 is speaking to all whom the Father has given Jesus from all over the world. Every nation, tribe and tongue.

Jesus is not praying for the world, but for the disciples and the remnant of Israel John 17:9

 

[Particular]

Jesus is not praying for the world, but for the disciples and the remnant of Israel John 17:9

Doug, you have hemmed yourself in with a false assertion. Jesus not only prays for all those who will believe in chapter 17, but we also see him bringing Samaritans to faith and healing Gentiles, such as the woman from Tyre and the healing of the Centurions child. The idea that you can compartmentalize Jesus is one I disagree with.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus was talking about his sheep Israel in John 10.
Please show me a message for the church, the body of Christ,
The gospel Jesus sent the disciples out to preach to the nations was the gospel of the kingdom, the earthly kingdom in which the Gentiles would come to God through Israel.

[John 10:14-16 NASB] 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd.

 

[atpollard]

[John 1:9-13 NASB] 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

From the opening of the Gospel of John, for “Israel” or “the world”?

 

[atpollard]

[John 1:29 NASB] 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Another hint from John the Baptist this time. Israel or the world?

 

[atpollard]

[John 2:13-16 NASB] 13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated [at their tables.] 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove [them] all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."

Another hint hidden in this story. What part of the “Temple” did Jesus drive the merchants from? Who was allowed to worship in THAT part of the temple?

Israel or the world?

 

[atpollard]

[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Israel or the world?

 

[atpollard]

That’s 4 references to Jesus as savior of all nations, tribes and tongues (the world), rather than just Israel, in the first 3 chapters. While it might be fun to go through every chapter looking for hints of Jesus Christ as Savior of all people groups, I think that I have made my point that one need not wait for Paul’s Epistles to learn that Jesus is Christ of all people groups and not just one line of biological descent.

 

[Doug]

Doug, you have hemmed yourself in with a false assertion. Jesus not only prays for all those who will believe in chapter 17, but we also see him bringing Samaritans to faith and healing Gentiles, such as the woman from Tyre and the healing of the Centurions child. The idea that you can compartmentalize Jesus is one I disagree with.

Yes, he would send the disciples to preach the gospel to all the nations in the tribulation period, to bring in the earthly kingdom, in which the remnant of Israel would bless the Gentiles, and bring them to God.
Going back to John 17, in verse 20 he speaks of the believing remnant of Israel.
Let me say, if you believe that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification and imputes his righteousness to us then we are in accord, we are discussing doctrine.

 

[Particular]

Yes, he would send the disciples to preach the gospel to all the nations in the tribulation period, to bring in the earthly kingdom, in which the remnant of Israel would bless the Gentiles, and bring them to God.
Going back to John 17, in verse 20 he speaks of the believing remnant of Israel.
Let me say, if you believe that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification and imputes his righteousness to us then we are in accord, we are discussing doctrine.

You have entirely missed what Jesus is saying in John 10 as well as John 17.

Your last sentence says nothing regarding ransom for all or for some.

 

[sunshinemama91]

Point understood, but IMO there is a difference, a critical one.

IF I accept that Jesus died for all, then I can be 100% certain He died for me. And thus, my faith is grasping something that exists for me. But if Jesus only died for a FEW, a minority (and simple odds are, probably not me) then how can I know (or even guess) that I'M among those for whom atonement has been made? I may have faith in Christ but that's entirely useless if Christ has nothing to offer me.

Universal has that one (IMO critical) advantage: I know Jesus died for ME (since I'm included in EVERYONE). If He only died for some minority of people (and evidently God didn't list who's in that number) then no one can actually know if Jesus did a thing for them, has anything to offer them.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours....


Josiah




.

Ugh THIS one has me on edge all the time. Like I know who God is, but the more I analyze my faith, the more I realize I dont KNOW who God is to me. My Savior, my Lord, my Master etc, but how deep does that go? Am I just a legalist and going through the motions of having changed for faith sake? Or am I a born again child of the One True King? Every once in a while I get a glimpse of who I was before and recognize my undeniable salvation... other times all I see is what a mess I am and start to wonder how God could never forsake or leave me.

Sent from my SM-S506DL using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

Ugh THIS one has me on edge all the time. Like I know who God is, but the more I analyze my faith, the more I realize I dont KNOW who God is to me. My Savior, my Lord, my Master etc, but how deep does that go? Am I just a legalist and going through the motions of having changed for faith sake? Or am I a born again child of the One True King? Every once in a while I get a glimpse of who I was before and recognize my undeniable salvation... other times all I see is what a mess I am and start to wonder how God could never forsake or leave me.

Sent from my SM-S506DL using Tapatalk

That's why we should look objectively to the cross where Jesus died for us and our sins are forgiven instead of looking at us to see how we line up with anything. If we believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose again for us we have salvation. Faith clings to that Gospel message.

 

[Particular]

Ugh THIS one has me on edge all the time. Like I know who God is, but the more I analyze my faith, the more I realize I dont KNOW who God is to me. My Savior, my Lord, my Master etc, but how deep does that go? Am I just a legalist and going through the motions of having changed for faith sake? Or am I a born again child of the One True King? Every once in a while I get a glimpse of who I was before and recognize my undeniable salvation... other times all I see is what a mess I am and start to wonder how God could never forsake or leave me.

Sent from my SM-S506DL using Tapatalk

Huh, kinda sounds like Paul in Romans 7 and 8.

 

[Doug]

[John 10:14-16 NASB] 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The existing fold is the believing Israel of God, the little flock. The other sheep are the little flock that has been scattered into other countries. The believing remnant scattered into other countries, will be all gathered together, to form one nation, one fold; Israel and Judah will be one nation. This is not about the church, the body of Christ, it is about the believing remnant of Israel who only believed on the name of Jesus as Christ, Son of God.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[Doug]

[John 1:9-13 NASB] 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

From the opening of the Gospel of John, for “Israel” or “the world”?

Jew or Gentile could believe on his name. They would be the remnant of Israel, the church of God, but not the body of Christ.

 

[Doug]

[John 1:29 NASB] 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Another hint from John the Baptist this time. Israel or the world?

God always purposed to save the world Psalm 98:2-3
Jesus died to redeem the sins of Israel so that the world could come to God through them. Isaiah 2:1-4
Israel was to be a light to the Gentile nations who will enter into the kingdom on earth. Isaiah 60:3