RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Lamb]

Actually, scripture says no such thing. You are reading it into the verses.
Scripture says Jesus died for ALL OF US (christians).
Scripture says Jesus died for all sins.
Scripture does not say that Jesus died for every person (no exception).


I keep asking for the verse that says what you-all keep claiming it says, but I have shown that each of the verses posted by Josiah do not say what you claim “MANY” verses say.

However, @Particular has made a valid point that that is not what the TITLE of this thread is about. The actual title is about RANSOM and not death. So who has Jesus ransomed?

If Jesus died for all sins as you say above and all people sin then Jesus died for all people who sin. That's everyone.

 

[Particular]

If Jesus died for all sins as you say above and all people sin then Jesus died for all people who sin. That's everyone.

Did Jesus ransom all those sins so that the person is redeemed? This is the issue.
You keep stating that Jesus death potentially redeems all, but not effectively redeems all. Every Christian will agree with the possibility that if every human believed, then every human would be ransomed/redeemed. The question then resides in whether all humans (or any humans) have the capacity to believe and what happens if they don't believe.
When we talk about ransom, we are talking about an effectual payment that does indeed, without any action by the hostage, redeem that person from her/his captor. They are made free by the payment, not potentially, but entirely and really made free.
So...are all humans ransomed by God so that they are entirely and really made free... without exception? If yes, then please share the scripture that declares such. And also, please recognize that in saying yes, you are saying yes to universalism.
If no, then you and I agree. Jesus may have potentially died for all, but he effectively ransomed all who believe, not all humanity irregardless of whether they believe or don't believe.
(Josiah, please don't derail this discussion with a sidetrack or spur down a different rail. Don't cut and paste the same irrelevant gibberish. Provide an original thought please.)

 

[bbas 64]

If Jesus died for all sins as you say above and all people sin then Jesus died for all people who sin. That's everyone.

Good Day, Lamby

You are conflating the two... he died for the sins of the world... but not ransom all the sinners in the world.

Can you understand the distinction?

I do recall Rod Rosenbladt on the white horse Inn helping Lutherans understand this very important distinction while covering the book of Romans years ago... I will try to track it down.

In Him

Bill

 

[Josiah]

@Particular;
@atpollard;
@BBAS 64;
@[USER=11]Lämmchen;[/USER]



Particular -

We agree that Jesus died for all who will believe

.

... and more, you insist that He did NOT die for "all" "everyone" "whole world" as the Bible flat-out, clearly, boldly, verbatim, in black-and-white states, and as Christianity has affirmed for 2000 years. This has been your endless mantra since you came to this site. You condemn and repudiate us when we state what Scripture so often does: Jesus died for all. You insist NO! He ONLY died for the Elect, some, the few.

When we post Jesus died for all, you (and your buds) ridicule, mock, repudidate and condemn that, calling it heresy, insisting that all the places that state "all" and "every" and "whole" either means the exact opposite of that or is applying to non-humans, not to people.


It's absurd you keep saying we have not addressed the issue when we have done so ENDLESSLY, for months. We have over and over and over and over again both stated - as clearly and boldly as can be - Jesus' death on the Cross does not mean all are therefore personally justified because faith is also essential. We disagree with you that if Jesus died for someone, ergo that one is personally justified. We think faith matters - but this you ridicule, accusing us therefore of Universalism because we hold that faith matters while you hold "If Jesus died on the Cross for everyone then everyone is saved" (to quote you so often). We just disagree, but we HAVE stated our positio We HAVE addressed the issue. You reject it in the strongest way possible, but we have stated it Everyone who has read this thread knows this. Your accusation is just absurd.

It's absurd you keep saying we have not addressed the issue when we have done so ENDLESSLY. Sure, we refer to this as subjective or personal justification or salvation, you seem to like the word "ransom," but yes, you condemn our position of John 3:16, you condemn our view that BOTH the Cross AND faith are needed, calling us "universalists" for that. You insist that if Jesus died for all, ERGO all are saved (no mention of faith - thus rejecting our view that faith matters.) So be it. I gave up.



The issue in debate with you two is your condemnation of us for accepting that Jesus died for all, your dogmatic insistence that "all" means "not all, just a few, only the elect, ONLY those who someday would come to faith. That "all" means "not all." THAT'S the point we've been debating. The debate: if Jesus died for all as the Bible says or for ONLY some as you keep saying but can't find a verse that says that. .

Here's the debate with you and atpollard. We are quoting the Bible. Jesus died for all. And you insist this is heresy, something you repudiate and condemn and go on and on and on telling us how wrong we are, how Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for the Elect - He died ONLY for those being your whole point - but you can't find anything in any book any Christian considers canonical that actually says that.




All who can read sees this. Particular, you are OBSESSED with denouncing what the Bible says: Jesus died for all. You are OBSESSED with denouncing anyone who agrees with 2000 years of Christianity and accepts all these Scriptures. Yet you have not one Scripture to counter the verbatim words of Scripture. It's just amazing.

You state that Jesus death potentially redeems all


.

Yes.

And there goes your constant, absurd claim that we never addressed the issue of redemption.

Yes, Jesus died for all, so justification is "there" for all. But as Lamm and I have told you - countless times, over and over and over again, in thread after thread, for months, we disagree with you that the only thing that matters is the Cross; we disagree with you that faith is irrelevant; we disagree if you that if Jesus died for everyone, ergo everyone has personal redemption (a position you repeat endless), we hold that faith is also essential. We hold to what the Bible says and 2000 years of Christianity has accepted, one apprehends what is "there" for all BY FAITH. Without faith, that gift is not received. It doesn't mean the gift is not there, it's means it's not accepted/applied. I have quoted so many Scritpures to you on this - always ignored. I have share several illustrations - always ignored. I've explained the difference between objective and subjective justification, uses Scriptures, given you videos to watch - always ignored. Because we hold that personal justification does NOT happen when there is no faith, you call US "Universalists" and heretics, while you ignore faith in personal justification going on and on insisting that if Jesus died for someone ERGO they are justified (with no mention of faith). I have so often explained our position of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE noting that BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary, but you have repudiated this. For months now. In thread after thread.

And Particular, when we quote the black-and-white words of Scripture, you claim we are violating Sola Scriptura. While you claim to be keeping it but can't find any verse that says He died for only some. This has happened countless times. In thread after thread. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

ALL we have said is exactly, verbatim what the Bible repeatedly, verbatim states. Jesus died for all. And it has angered you and atpollard incredibly, you SO obsessed with arguing against this, debating this, repudiating this, declaring us universalists and heretics for quoting these Scriptures, insisting that "all" means "not all" and "everyone" means "not most" and if we just read the context, we'd know that. This has gone on in thread after thread, since you two came here. Frankly, I'm sick of it. EVERYONE WHO STILL IS CRAZY ENOUGH TO READ YOU GUYS KNOWS THIS.


I'm done.




.

 

[atpollard]

If Jesus died for all sins as you say above and all people sin then Jesus died for all people who sin. That's everyone.

If Jesus died for his sheep and the sinners are goats then Jesus did not die for the goats.

What makes YOUR assumptions based on reading your interpretations right and MY assumptions based on my interpretations wrong?

You have no scripture that actually SAYS what you claim.

However, I have this:
[Jhn 10:11, 14-16, 26, 29 NASB]
11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ...
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. ...
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. ...
29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• The Shepherd is Jesus
• Jesus died for the sheep (His people) ... stated TWICE ( v.11 and v.15)
• Jesus knows “sheep” and “sheep” know Jesus
• Unbelievers do not believe BECAUSE they are NOT sheep.
• Believers (His ‘sheep’) are His BECAUSE the Father gave them to Him.
• Sheep are not Goats and Goats are not Sheep:
  • [Mat 25:31-34, 41, 46 NASB] 31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ... 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[atpollard]

I'm done.

... but still have not provided a single verse that says what you claim MANY verses “clearly“ and “verbatim” say.
(“all of US believers“ is not everyone without exception. “all sin” is not all people without exception.)

 

[Particular]

@Particular;
@atpollard;
@BBAS 64;


Particular -





... and more, you insist that He did NOT die for "all" "everyone" "whole world" as the Bible flat-out, clearly, boldly, verbatim, in black-and-white states, and as Christianity has affirmed for 2000 years. This has been your endless mantra since you came to this site. You condemn and repudiate us when we state what Scripture so often does: Jesus died for all. You insist NO! He ONLY died for the Elect, some, the few.

When we post Jesus died for all, you (and your buds) ridicule, mock, repudidate and condemn that, calling it heresy, insisting that all the places that state "all" and "every" and "whole" either means the exact opposite of that or is applying to non-humans, not to people.


Now, we have over and over and over and over again both stated - as clearly and boldly as can be - this does not mean all are therefore personally justified because we disagree with you that if Jesus died for someone, ergo that one is personally justified regardless of whether they have faith in Christ or Allah or self because all that matters is if Jesus died for you, faith being irrelevant to justification. You accuse US of Universalism because we hold that faith matters while you almost always delete faith entirely.

Here's the debate with you and atpollard. We are just repeating (verbatim) what the Bible so often says. And you insist this is heresy, something you repudiate and condemn and go on and on and on telling us how wrong we are, how Jesus did NOT die for all (as the Bible so often verbatim states) but ONLY for the Elect (but you can't find anything in any book any Christian considers canonical that actually says that).

All who can read sees this. Particular, you are OBSESSED with denouncing what the Bible says: Jesus died for all. You are OBSESSED with denouncing anyone who agrees with 2000 years of Christianity and accepts all these Scriptures. Yet you have not one Scripture to counter the verbatim words of Scripture. It's just amazing.









Yes.

Actually, our position is exactly the words we quote verbatim from Scripture. But yes, Jesus died for all, so justification is "there" for all. But as Lamm and I have told you - countless times, over and over and over again, in thread after thread, for months, we disagree with you that the only thing that matters is the Cross for faith is irrelevant to justification. We disagree, we hold to what the Bible says and 2000 years of Christianity has accepted, one apprehends what is "there" for all BY FAITH. Without faith, that gift is not received. I have quoted so many Scritpures to you on this - always ignored. I have share several illustrations - always ignored. I've explained the difference between objective and subjective justification, uses Scriptures, given you videos to watch - always ignored. Because we hold that personal justification does NOT happen when there is no faith, you call US "Universalists" and heretics, while you ignore faith in personal justification going on and on insisting that if Jesus died for someone ERGO they are justified (with no mention of faith). I have so often explained our position of SOLA GRATIA - SOLUS CHRISTUS - SOLA FIDE noting that BOTH the Cross and faith are necessary, but you have repudiated this. For months now. In thread after thread.

And Particular, when we quote the black-and-white words of Scripture, you claim we are violating Sola Scriptura. While you claim to be keeping it but can't find any verse that says He died for only some. This has happened countless times. In thread after thread. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

ALL we have said is exactly, verbatim what the Bible repeatedly, verbatim states. Jesus died for all. And it has angered you and atpollard incredibly, you SO obsessed with arguing against this, debating this, repudiating this, declaring us universalists and heretics for quoting these Scriptures, insisting that "all" means "not all" and "everyone" means "not most" and if we just read the context, we'd know that. This has gone on in thread after thread, since you two came here. Frankly, I'm sick of it. EVERYONE WHO STILL IS CRAZY ENOUGH TO READ YOU GUYS KNOWS THIS.


I'm done.




.

Josiah, you have an obstacle and stumbling block in your mind. Notice that not once did you address the issue of being ransomed. You are not even addressing the topic of this thread. You are off-topic and therefore railing against something entirely different than the thread. It is very apparent that you cannot wrap your mind around this fact. I cannot give you an epiphany to allow you a paradigm shift. Until you have the capacity to grasp what this thread is discussing, I agree...you need to be done with this conversation. It is clear you are not addressing the topic.

Peace to you

 

[Andrew]

Did Jesus ransom all? Yes or no. This is the topic of this thread.

No.

 

[Doug]

No.

Yes you are right, but when was this revealed, under the four gospels or under Paul?

 

[Josiah]

@Andrew;

No.

See post 204. Also 168.


Did Jesus die for all - although only those with faith thus apprehend, trust and benefit from such? That's the position of Lamm and myself, which has been labeled as heretical, unbiblical, and Universalism. I have documented earlier that our position is that of nearly every denomination and faith community on the planet (almost certainly including yours).


Andrew, consider the following. Do these suggest to you that Jesus died for all OR rather that it is a dogmatic fact that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, exclusively, for SOME?


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Where is the verse that states, "NOT for the whole world but rather for ONLY A FEW."
Where is the verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Where is the verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY A FEW."
Where is the verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus die not die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

There are many, many more that state the same truth as the six examples above.
So far, neither Particular or atpollard have presented the verse that states, "Jesus died for ONLY SOME."

@Andrew;, Lamm and I position that Jesus died for all and those with faith receive the justification that gained. John 3:16
Our two friends have positioned if Jesus died for all then all are saved (no Scripture ever given for this).
What say you?

Again, see post 204. And 168 would help.

but I have this:

[Jhn 10:11, 14-16, 26, 29 NASB]
11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ...

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. ...

26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

... and thus you have nothing.

Lamm and I have fully and completely agreed with EVERY SINGLE WORD you have quoted from Scripture, without exception. You are the one denying verses such as those earlier in this post, insisting they must "mean" the exact opposite of what they state.

You quote Jesus and show He nowhere says "I died for ONLY some.' Sure, He says He died for the sheep - and no one has EVER denied that, I have repeatedly fully and completely AGREED He died for the sheep. No one is disputing the point this verse makes. But YOUR point is entirely missing, He does NOT say what you do, that He died for ONLY the sheep. Again, if I say "I love my son" that does NOT prove that ergo I love no other. The verse by no means says what you do, it's irrelevant to the discussion and the point of Lamm and I. You can post all day long for whom Jesus died, it has NOTHING to do with proving He died for ONLY SOME.






@atpollard;


1. We have given Scriptures that literally state what we do: Jesus died for all. That's our position and it is verbatim confirmed by Scriptures.
You insist this is not so and that Jesus died for ONLY some (ONLY being the position). You've offered nothing that states that.


2. It is claimed we have not addressed the issue of redemption and yet I'm quoted for my position given in this thread for redemption, so either I DID state my position on redemption/ransom/personal justification (and you are knowingly perpetuating a falsehood) or you totally made up my position because I never gave it. Either way....


3. Our wider position is John 3:16. Read the words. That's the position Lamm and I have taken on ransom/redeption/personal justification AND on this issue of for whom He did. Read those black-and-white things (Sola Scriptura). Just like it reads, no spin needed, that's our position. Jesus died for the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2), for all (1 Timothy 2:6).. and those with faith apprehend/trust/rely on such and thus benefit from it (those without faith do not). We have stated it in this thread, in other threads on this topic, and all over this website. This position was posted as my position while claiming I never addressed the issue. Lamm and I hold to SOLA GRATIA -SOLUS CHRISTUS- SOLA FIDE and that personal justifcation necessitates all 3, not just the Cross. For this, we were called "Universalists." We REPEATEDLY addressed the issue of personal ransom/redemption/salvation/personal justification - just with John 3:16 and the view of pretty much every denomination but yours, one that doesn't delete faith, one that accepts what Scripture says. Read John 3:16. Read the words (Sola Scriptura).




John 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

That's exactly the position of Lamm and I on both the issue of for whom Jesus died and who is redeemed/ransomed/personally justified. It is NOT heresy, it is NOT universalism, it is NOT unbiblical and stupid. Nowhere have you shown in Scripture that Jesus ONLY died for "those who would one day believe in him" or "ONLY for some few." And you have NOT shown that redemption/personal justification is attained apart from faith.

ALL the Scriptures you quote affirm OUR position and offer NOTHING to support your "Jesus died for only some" mantra and tradition. Only some BENEFIT from such but that's not because the Cross is missing but because faith is missing.




Read post 204.




.




.

 

[atpollard]

Yes you are right, but when was this revealed, under the four gospels or under Paul?

John 10

 

[atpollard]

Did Jesus die for all

“RANSOM“, not “die for” ... reread the title of the topic.

 

[atpollard]

Only some BENEFIT from such but that's not because the Cross is missing but because faith is missing.

I don’t think you can provide a scripture that says this, either ... if you want to start a new thread and show me where it says this.

 

[Particular]

Yes you are right, but when was this revealed, under the four gospels or under Paul?

Both

 

[Particular]

“RANSOM“, not “die for” ... reread the title of the topic.

It's his stumbling block. Perhaps someday our dear brother will recognize the obstacle.

 

[atpollard]

1. We have given Scriptures that literally state what we do: Jesus died for all. That's our position and it is verbatim confirmed by Scriptures.
You insist this is not so and that Jesus died for ONLY some (ONLY being the position). You've offered nothing that states that.

Here is the “Jesus died for all” verse (and no verse literally and verbatim uses those exact words, so you really should choose your adjectives more carefully) ...

[2 Corinthians 5:1-21 NASB] 1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this [house] we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but [are] giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have [an answer] for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [Him in this way] no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [he is] a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

​

Two simple questions from the context:

1. Who does all of the “we” and “us” and “our” throughout the whole chapter refer to? All people without exception or Christians?
2. What does it mean in verse 21 when it says, verbatim, that God “made Him who knew no sin” ... (that would be JESUS CHRIST) ... to be sin “on our behalf” ... (“our” would be “Christian’s” in this chapter, paragraph and sentence)? This says that Jesus became sin SPECIFICALLY for the saved, and it does not say that Jesus became sin for everyone ... it says “our” (as in “us”).

If you would like another verse that says “Jesus died for ONLY some”, then I offer this pair:

• [John 10:11, 26 NASB] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

 

[Lamb]

“RANSOM“, not “die for” ... reread the title of the topic.

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all— the testimony that was given at just the right time.

 

[Doug]

John 10

What is to be seen in John 10?

 

[Lamb]

What is to be seen in John 10?

John 10 speaks of who will be saved. We are in agreement here in this thread that not all will be saved.

What we also have to look at is this...there is a verse that God desires all men to be saved. We know that not all will be saved because scriptures tells us that. But it does say that God desires all men to be saved.

So with that in mind we should realize that if the ransom wasn't for all men then God didn't really desire for all men to be saved. It makes God into a liar. But God doesn't lie.

 

[atpollard]

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all— the testimony that was given at just the right time.

I cut my Biblical teeth under the Church of God of Anderson Indiana (a Wesleyan Holiness Movement Church), so I know that there are verses that appear to support both Limited and Universal Atonement. It is nice to see you using the verses that support your case even when read in context.