RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Josiah]

Particular,


...continuing post 140.... if you read this and consider it....



"Problems"can result as we read Scripture....

1) Let's say there's a verse that states,"Jesus died at the age of 30" and another that says "Jesus died at the age of 45." Now, Scripture cannot err but we certainly SEEM (to our puny, largely worthless brains) that... well..... they can't both be true, yet are. Now it may be we (all Christians) can resolve it via the Law/Gospel dynamic (often works), or the related justification/sanctification dynamic (also often works) but neither of those help here. We SEEM to have a contradiction and yet cannot have one. What to do? Throw out one and accept the other? "Interpret" one to agree with the other? No, we let God be true - and admit we can't wrap our brain around this. We have examples of that with the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ and a large number of other doctrines you accept - all EMBRACES of verses we CANNOT fit together or explain - but we let them all stand, fully and literally, and declare we have a mystery. MUCH of Christian doctrine falls into that.

2) Let's say there is a verse that says 4000 people were present at an event, and another that says 5000 were. This is no problem at all. 4000 is a subset of 5000. There is no problem at all; no issue to understand, no contradiction. This is similar to a verse that says Jesus died for the elect and Jesus died for all, the elect is a subset of all. No logical problem whatsoever. Now, IF the verse stated, "ONLY 4000 were present" then we'd have a problem (of the nature of #1 above), the same issue we'd have IF you could find a verse that said "Jesus died ONLY for the elect." But without the "only" there is no varience, no conflict, no problem.,nothing that remotely needs understanding or "interpreting."


But here's the undeniable reality: SO many verses that flat-out, verbatim, boldly, clearly, undeniably, black-and-white words on the page (Sola Scriptura) repeatedly state Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all others too, for the whole world. And not one that so much as mentions some "only." So we have no problem. The Bible is right. This horrible, late, denominational tradition you parrot is not in Scripture. What God so often, so clearly, so boldly, verbatim states is true.

Now, you MAY be of the personal opinion that the "all" and "everyone" and "all others too" and "whole world" cannot support the doctrine that Jesus died for all. Okay. I disagree with you (as do every Calvinist known to me, and my wife's side of our family is nothing but Reformed Christians) but that provides nothing to prove that ergo the opposite is the case. You've only attempted to say the nearly universal Christian position... in your individual opinion.... lacks adequate support for the doctrine that Jesus died for all. I'm sure you have far, far greater problems with the Trinity and Two Natures of Christ and pretty much all other doctrines, too. But your opinion that "but I'M not sure "all" actually means "all" is in any sense substnatiation that the verse actually states NOT all. Calvinists are often SO incredibly proud of their logic...and that just amazes me.



Friend, I'm not asking for anything you don't. If someone posted, "The Bible says Jesus was born in Los Angeles" I'm 100% sure you'd asked, "where?" And you likely would note that twice it says He was born in Bethlehem of Judea. Now....I may present questions I have about the Bethlehem reference but that would not ergo dogmatically prove He thus was born in Los Angeles - especially if I cannot find one verse - anywhere - that says He was born in Los Angeles. Here's the simple, undeniable reality: MANY clear, undeniable Scripture STATE in black-and-white words ("Sola Scriptura") that Jesus died for all. And you can't find anything that says "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY some." Christians can (and do) have MANY Scriptures to support their view - in clear, undeniable, bold, verbatim, black-and-white words. You don't. You have nothing. Simple as that. And all your noise can't change that.






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[Particular]

When you provide a verse that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some" then we can discuss whether that verse "trumps" all the verses that literally, verbatim, black-and-white declare the exact opposite.

Until then, you are just endlessly parroting this new horrible denomination tradition and stressing your need to SPIN so many verses 180 degrees because they directly, verbatim contradict what you say.




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I provided all the verses. They say the truth, that Jesus ransomed all the Father has given him. I'm sorry if you struggle with reading comprehension.

 

[Particular]

Particular,


...continuing post 140.... if you read this and consider it....



"Problems"can result as we read Scripture....

1) Let's say there's a verse that states,"Jesus died at the age of 30" and another that says "Jesus died at the age of 45." Now, Scripture cannot err but we certainly SEEM (to our puny, largely worthless brains) that... well..... they can't both be true, yet are. Now it may be we (all Christians) can resolve it via the Law/Gospel dynamic (often works), or the related justification/sanctification dynamic (also often works) but neither of those help here. We SEEM to have a contradiction and yet cannot have one. What to do? Throw out one and accept the other? "Interpret" one to agree with the other? No, we let God be true - and admit we can't wrap our brain around this. We have examples of that with the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ and a large number of other doctrines you accept - all EMBRACES of verses we CANNOT fit together or explain - but we let them all stand, fully and literally, and declare we have a mystery. MUCH of Christian doctrine falls into that.

2) Let's say there is a verse that says 4000 people were present at an event, and another that says 5000 were. This is no problem at all. 4000 is a subset of 5000. There is no problem at all; no issue to understand, no contradiction. This is similar to a verse that says Jesus died for the elect and Jesus died for all, the elect is a subset of all. No logical problem whatsoever. Now, IF the verse stated, "ONLY 4000 were present" then we'd have a problem (of the nature of #1 above), the same issue we'd have IF you could find a verse that said "Jesus died ONLY for the elect." But without the "only" there is no varience, no conflict, no problem.,nothing that remotely needs understanding or "interpreting."


But here's the undeniable reality: SO many verses that flat-out, verbatim, boldly, clearly, undeniably, black-and-white words on the page (Sola Scriptura) repeatedly state Jesus died for all, for everyone, for all others too, for the whole world. And not one that so much as mentions some "only." So we have no problem. The Bible is right. This horrible, late, denominational tradition you parrot is not in Scripture. What God so often, so clearly, so boldly, verbatim states is true.

Now, you MAY be of the personal opinion that the "all" and "everyone" and "all others too" and "whole world" cannot support the doctrine that Jesus died for all. Okay. I disagree with you (as do every Calvinist known to me, and my wife's side of our family is nothing but Reformed Christians) but that provides nothing to prove that ergo the opposite is the case. You've only attempted to say the nearly universal Christian position... in your individual opinion.... lacks adequate support for the doctrine that Jesus died for all. I'm sure you have far, far greater problems with the Trinity and Two Natures of Christ and pretty much all other doctrines, too. But your opinion that "but I'M not sure "all" actually means "all" is in any sense substnatiation that the verse actually states NOT all. Calvinists are often SO incredibly proud of their logic...and that just amazes me.




.

Go through all those supposed verses and exegete the passage. I did so with at least two of your six, showing you that your interpretation is incorrect. Jesus did not ransom (redeem) all humanity when he died.
I provided chapter after chapter in my defense. Sola Scriptura. God is very clear regarding whom he has ransomed. It's not all the entire world. (Unless you are arguing for universalism. Are you?)

 

[Josiah]

I provided all the verses. They say the truth, that Jesus ransomed all the Father has given him.

No one disputes that.

But your whole dogma is entirely, wholly, completely missing. It doesn't say ONLY.

I predicted you'd skip post 141...




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[atpollard]

Your whole dogma rests on one point: ONLY, SOME. Your dogma entirely, wholly, completely rests on that point. It falls without that. YOU are the one always stressing that dogma must have clear words of Scripture to confirm it. So, where is that verse? So far, you've not shared one. I'd accept one, even one that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." Just one would be enough, IMO.

I (and 2000 years of Christianity) have presented a goodly number of verses that state "all" "everyone" "whole world" "all others" etc., etc., etc. I'll repeat just a small sample for you below. I know you don't accept any of them, I realize you spin them so radically that you insist every one of them must "mean" the exact opposite of the literal verbatim words on the page, but the many verses are there - and I quote them all, verbatim (no spin zone, lol). Now, what do you have to the contrary?

What you've offered is mostly this: You can find verses that says Jesus died for the Elect. No one disputes that. What is disputed is that ERGO that verse dogmatically proves He did not die for any others. You've made that point since you came here nearly a year ago. I've simply pointed out it does NOT prove your point. Going round and round with that apologetic isn't helping; it doesn't work.

I don't deny it's POSSIBLE to - perhaps - with very great effort - find something obscure here and there that might suggest or imply some group Jesus did not die for. But I find that incredibly weak....and simply overwhelmed by all the many, many clear, bold, unobscure, statements that state He died for ALL, for EVERYONE, for the WHOLE WORLD, etc. etc., etc., etc. Friend, your entire dogma depends entirely, solely, exclusively on ONE point: the ONLY point, the JUST THESE and NOT THOSE point. And for almost a year, you've not found even one verse that says that. What I've found is this: Jesus wants most to fry in hell, so why would Jesus die for those He wants damned? Interesting question.... founded on a falsehood....but the question proves nothing.




1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.
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Does this mean that you can’t answer the questions that I asked?
Nothing you posted seems like an answer.
So let’s try again ...

Could you quantify the number of verses that qualify as “a very small number” and the number of verses needed to qualify as “many”.
Are 5 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 10 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 20 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 40 verses “a very small number” or “many”?

Where are the approximate dividing lines?

 

[Josiah]

Does this mean that you can’t answer the questions that I asked?

Of course, I did answer it - often. Try reading the posts here.

As I answered, I will GLADLY - with much joy - accept even one verse, just one, no need to "match" all many verses that countradict your tradition, one will do. Just one. "Jesus did not die for all" or "Jesus died for only some."



See post 141.



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[Particular]

No one disputes that.

But your whole dogma is entirely, wholly, completely missing. It doesn't say ONLY.

I predicted you'd skip post 141...




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My whole belief is Sola Scriptura. I shared passages. You, you have 6 sentences out of context.

 

[Particular]

Does this mean that you can’t answer the questions that I asked?
Nothing you posted seems like an answer.
So let’s try again ...

Could you quantify the number of verses that qualify as “a very small number” and the number of verses needed to qualify as “many”.
Are 5 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 10 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 20 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 40 verses “a very small number” or “many”?

Where are the approximate dividing lines?

Josiah cannot answer your question. He can, however, cut and paste 6 sentences.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah cannot answer your question.

I repeatedly answered his question, as everyone who reads knows.

Again, yet again, still another time, I'll repeat again, I'd be glad to accept just one verse from any book that any Christian considers canonical that states your new denomination tradition: Jesus died for ONLY some. Find the verse, quote it, and we're done. Just one verse would be accepted. Just one. That's enough. You don't have to match the number we all have that contradict your tradition, one is enough. My answer has been, is and forever will be ONE. Quote the verse that says what you do: "Jesus died for ONLY some."

Until then, we have many verses that flat out, boldly, clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white state the exact opposite of your horrible tradition. And any who can read knows that.


See post 141.



.

 

[Particular]

I repeatedly answered his question, as everyone who reads knows.

Again, yet again, still another time, I'll repeat again, I'd be glad to accept just one verse from any book that any Christian considers canonical that states your new denomination tradition: Jesus died for ONLY some. Find the verse, quote it, and we're done. Just one verse would be accepted. Just one. That's enough. You don't have to match the number we all have that contradict your tradition, one is enough. My answer has been, is and forever will be ONE. Quote the verse that says what you do: "Jesus died for ONLY some."

Until then, we have many verses that flat out, boldly, clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white state the exact opposite of your horrible tradition. And any who can read knows that.


See post 141.



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Nope, you never answered his question. I look through the entire thread, no answer from you.
No exegesis. Nothing.

 

[atpollard]

As I answered, I will GLADLY - with much joy - accept even one verse, just one, no need to "match" all many verses that countradict your tradition, one will do. Just one. "Jesus did not die for all" or "Jesus died for only some."

That did not answer the question about how many verses were “many” vs “few”, which was based on a complaint of yours that another poster had quoted ”no“ scripture and later “a few” verses while your position was based on “many” verses. I just asked to you quantify how many verses were needed to be “many”, since you brought up the number of verses as an important measure.

Since the issue now seems to revolve around “just one verse”, then could you please provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.” ... which is what you claim “many verses” (whatever number ‘many’ is) teach.

 

[Josiah]

I repeatedly answered his question, as everyone who reads knows.

Again, yet again, still another time, I'll repeat again, I'd be glad to accept just one verse from any book that any Christian considers canonical that states your new denomination tradition: Jesus died for ONLY some. Find the verse, quote it, and we're done. Just one verse would be accepted. Just one. That's enough. You don't have to match the number we all have that contradict your tradition, one is enough. My answer has been, is and forever will be ONE. "Jesus died for ONLY some."

Until then, we have many verses that flat out, boldly, clearly, verbatim, in black-and-white state the exact opposite of your horrible tradition. And any who can read knows that.


See post 141.



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That did not answer the question about how many verses were “many” vs “few”

Sorry, I don't know what the meaning of "few" and "many" has to do with the topic here. But you did ask how many verses you needed. And I have repeatedly answered.

I just asked to you quantify how many verses were needed to be “many”

I repeatedly have said ONE is all that is needed. I'd gladly, willingly, with joy supreme, accept ONE from ANY book that ANY Christian considers canonical that states what you do, "Jesus did not die for all" Or "Jesus died for ONLY some." One is enough. You don't have to match historic Christianity verse-for-verse, no one has ever held you to that.

But we DO have verses that out-right, verbatim, clearly, boldly, undeniably, word-for-word, in black-and-white, STATE Jesus died for all. Everyone who can read KNOWS this. And so far, no radical Calvinist in almost 500 years has found ANY verse that says "Nope, actually Jesus died for ONLY some." ONLY being the point of your denomination tradition. If you find that verse, GOOD! I will rejoice. But so far, all we've gotten is "but the verses you quote all MEAN the exact opposite of what they say, says me!" which is irrelevant to substantiating that Jesus died for ONLY some. And that Jesus died for the Elect (which not a soul on the planet earth debates) but nothing that states, ONLY for the Elect. In other words, you've got not one verse. So far. But be the first Reformed believer in almost 500 years to find it! Go for it! We make history here at CH! We'll get on the map! Lamm will be happy!


See post 141




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[Particular]

I provided passage after passage with verses all expressing that Jesus died for all whom the Father has given him.

Josiah, has God the Father given Jesus every human on the planet that has ever lived and ever will live? Has the universal world, past, present and future, been ransomed and redeemed by Jesus?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[atpollard]

Since the issue now seems to revolve around just one verse, then could you please provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

 

[Josiah]

could you please provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

Sure! I appreciate every opportunity to share God's clear Word! Thank you!

Here are just 6 verses that convey inclusivity.



1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Where is your verse that states, "NOT for the whole world but rather for ONLY A FEW."
Where is the verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141



Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Where is your verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY A FEW."
Where is the verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141



2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus die not die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141



2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141



Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141



1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"
Where is the verse, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY SOME."
See post 141


There are many, many more that state the same truth as the six examples above.


You have presenting NOTHING - not one verse from any book that any Christian considers canonical - that states your new denominational tradition, the 'ONLY some." I know Calvinists have been looking for almost 500 years for some verse that states their new, horrible, denomination tradition but so far no one has found one. Not yet. But give it a try!



See post 141.



Thank you for this opportunity to share God's Word again



Blessings!


Josiah


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[atpollard]

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

That says “sins” not people. Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world and not just the Jewish Nation like the OT sacrifice.
Provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

 

[atpollard]

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

“He might taste death” is not the same as “He died for” ... rather than bold EVERYONE, please exegete the qualifier MIGHT.
Provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

 

[atpollard]

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

It does not say “everyone without exception”. ALL could just as easily mean ALL of US (as in “the love of Christ controls US, because”).
Provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

 

[atpollard]

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Once again, Jesus bearing all the SIN is not the same as Jesus dying as the propitiation for every person without exception. SIN is not PEOPLE.
Provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

 

[atpollard]

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

Where is your verse, "Nope, Jesus did NOT die for all but for ONLY A FEW"

This verse does not say that Jesus DIED at all. Jesus certainly did not ransom every person without exception, unless you preach UNIVERSALISM. So you will need to include some more surrounding verses to prove that this means ...
“Jesus died for every single person without exception.”

Until then ... Provide the one verse that says “Jesus died for every single person without exception.”