RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[Josiah]

Scripture is correct that Jesus died for 100% of His sheep and none of the goats

Would you please quote the verse that states, "Jesus did not die for the goats?" I'll wait for that.


Meanwhile, until you find that verse, we have these...


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.



.

 

[Particular]

Wrong.

He has presented a very small number of verses, none of which state that Jesus did not die for all but for just a few. NONE of them remotely supports his view, as is obvious to any and all. Meanwhile, he has taken the MANY verses that specifically, directly, verbatim, boldly state that Jesus DID die "for all" "for everyone" "for all others" "for the whole world" and tried to spin them 180 degrees, insisting that what Scripture so often, so clearly states actually "means" the exact opposite.

He has shared a few verses. But none of them state what he does. It all seems to pin on his assumption that if Scripture says Jesus died for St. Paul ergo it is a dogmatic fact He died for no one else. It is a silly and absurd hermeneutic but it seems all he has since he can't find any verse that says what he does, while insisting Scripture does (he just can't find where).




.

False. I provided passages that speak to the truth that Jesus ransomed all those whom the Father has given him.
You are merely whining because the Bible is not using your required phrase to say what you demand. However, the Bible clearly declares that Jesus ransomed all the elect, but not all those who are perishing in their trespasses and sins.
You are not being honest, Josiah.

 

[Particular]

Would you please quote the verse that states, "Jesus did not die for the goats?" I'll wait for that.


Meanwhile, until you find that verse, we have these...


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.



.

Please admit you are teaching universalism.

 

[bbas 64]

Would you please quote the verse that states, "Jesus did not die for the goats?" I'll wait for that.


Meanwhile, until you find that verse, we have these...


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.



.

Good Day, Josiah

By the very definition Shepard's do not die for Goats... you are simply committing a fallacy by begging the question

Having sufficiently dealt IMHO with died for the sins in the world, just not all the sinners in the world...

Lets look at this particular Phase in Hebrews 2:9 "tasted death", what does that mean?

I will be using 2 premier NT Greek Scholars DA Carson, and Thomas Schreiner's work on Hebrews to assist in answering that question.

We must keep in the front of our minds as we look at this single verse it comes after a quote of Ps 8, so contexutlly that has to be accounted for. DA Carson's work on NT use of OT passages will be very foundational to the question at hand. There is also a textual variant in this text that may need to be addressed as well:

The evidence in Hebrews 2:9

An academic forum to discuss the Bible's manuscripts and textual history from the perspective of historic evangelical theology.

evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com

Textual variants in the Epistle to the Hebrews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What is the manuscript evidence for the reading "apart from God" in Hebrews 2:9?

What is the manuscript evidence for the variant reading "apart from God" in Hebrews 2:9?

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

So, what does it mean and if you have some Greek Resources to for examination that will be helpful as well.

Here is a link to part of John Owens 11 volumes on Hebrews, just chapter 2:

Hebrews 2 - Owen's Exposition of Hebrews - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Hebrews 2, Owen's Exposition of Hebrews, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary, by John Owen, an English Nonconformist church leader and theologian.

www.studylight.org

So, what does the phase "tasted death" mean?

I will let you go first..

Here is the text:

Heb 2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

In Him

Bill

 

[atpollard]

He has presented a very small number of verses

Could you quantify the number of verses that qualify as “a very small number” and the number of verses needed to qualify as “many”. I am not asking how many verses he shared.
I am asking if 5 verses is “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 10 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 20 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 40 verses “a very small number” or “many”?

Where are the approximate dividing lines?

 

[Josiah]

Could you quantify the number of verses that qualify as “a very small number” and the number of verses needed to qualify as “many”. I am not asking how many verses he shared.
I am asking if 5 verses is “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 10 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 20 verses “a very small number” or “many”?
Are 40 verses “a very small number” or “many”?

Where are the approximate dividing lines?

Your whole dogma rests on one point: ONLY, SOME. Your dogma entirely, wholly, completely rests on that point. It falls without that. YOU are the one always stressing that dogma must have clear words of Scripture to confirm it. So, where is that verse? So far, you've not shared one. I'd accept one, even one that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." Just one would be enough, IMO.

I (and 2000 years of Christianity) have presented a goodly number of verses that state "all" "everyone" "whole world" "all others" etc., etc., etc. I'll repeat just a small sample for you below. I know you don't accept any of them, I realize you spin them so radically that you insist every one of them must "mean" the exact opposite of the literal verbatim words on the page, but the many verses are there - and I quote them all, verbatim (no spin zone, lol). Now, what do you have to the contrary?

What you've offered is mostly this: You can find verses that says Jesus died for the Elect. No one disputes that. What is disputed is that ERGO that verse dogmatically proves He did not die for any others. You've made that point since you came here nearly a year ago. I've simply pointed out it does NOT prove your point. Going round and round with that apologetic isn't helping; it doesn't work.

I don't deny it's POSSIBLE to - perhaps - with very great effort - find something obscure here and there that might suggest or imply some group Jesus did not die for. But I find that incredibly weak....and simply overwhelmed by all the many, many clear, bold, unobscure, statements that state He died for ALL, for EVERYONE, for the WHOLE WORLD, etc. etc., etc., etc. Friend, your entire dogma depends entirely, solely, exclusively on ONE point: the ONLY point, the JUST THESE and NOT THOSE point. And for almost a year, you've not found even one verse that says that. What I've found is this: Jesus wants most to fry in hell, so why would Jesus die for those He wants damned? Interesting question.... founded on a falsehood....but the question proves nothing.




1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.




.

 

[Particular]

So, the answer is...no, you (Josiah) cannot define many. Nor can you exegete the passages of scripture. What can you do, besides copying and pasting?

Anyone who reads this thread can see how you struggle with making a cogent argument for your position. 6 verses is not many. In fact it's quite small. Moreso, none of the verses you use actually make your argument. In the context of the writing, they actually prove you wrong. Good luck with the contradiction you have established.

 

[Josiah]

6 verses is not many.

Many more exist, but I have posted verses that state - verbatim, boldly, clearly, in black-and-white words on the page ("Sola Scriptura") EXACTLY my position. I have no "argument" and need no "spin". The Bible repeatedly, clearly, boldly, verbatim states my position. And there is no "contradiction" since unlike you, my position is NOT contrary to what the words state.

I'll gladly accept even one verse from you that states your new denomination tradition, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." When you find even one, I'll accept it. Just quote it (finally!) and we'll be done. Until then,I'll stick with what God did state.




.

 

[Particular]

Many more exist, but I have posted verses that state - verbatim, boldly, clearly, in black-and-white words on the page ("Sola Scriptura") EXACTLY my position. I have no "argument" and need no "spin". The Bible repeatedly, clearly, boldly, verbatim states my position. And there is no "contradiction" since unlike you, my position is NOT contrary to what the words state.

I'll gladly accept even one verse from you that states your new denomination tradition, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some." When you find even one, I'll accept it. Just quote it (finally!) and we'll be done. Until then,I'll stick with what God did state.
.

Show us how they are black and white. Exegete the passages for us. I already did the first two and showed you your error. So, refute and provide support. (I will be surprised if you ever make the attempt).
You support sola lutherana, not sola scriptura. Martin Luther would be ashamed of you. Moreso, so is God. He's ashamed of what you are doing. If you actually stuck with God, you'd agree with God when God differentiates between those whom the Father gives to Jesus. But, you conveniently ignore passage after passage that shows you are wrong. You cling to a whopping 6 verses out of context. We're so impressed.

 

[Particular]

For Josiah:

John 6:35-40,43-47 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 10:14-18,24-30 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

John 17:24-26 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Sola Scriptura

 

[Particular]

For Josiah:

Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 25:32-46 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Sola Scriptura

 

[Particular]

For Josiah:

Romans 3:9-31 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 9:8-24 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Sola Scriptura

 

[Particular]

For Josiah:

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Sola Scriptura

 

[Particular]

Colossians 1:11-14,21-27 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:4-10 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Timothy 1:16-17 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Titus 1:1-4 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior; To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Sola Scriptura

 

[Particular]

How many verses is that? Is that enough for you Josiah? These verses express that Jesus ransomed those whom the Father gives him, not the entire world.

I have done exactly what you do. Just quote scripture and walk away.

Go ahead and cling to your 6 verses out of context, Josiah.

 

[Josiah]

Particular,


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.


When you have time, post the verse that states, "Not so, Jesus did not die for all but only for some." As I said, I'll gladly accept just ONE verse that states the new denomination tradition of a few radical Calvinists that you parrot. I've agreed I'll accept just one verse, you don't need to match the number that state the exact opposite.

I don't need to spin anything here. I have no need to quote a verse and then go on and on and on and on and on to insist God's words "mean" the exact opposite of what they state. I'm just accepting what God says. I know you can't. But I'll welcome you posting even one verse that says what you do. If you have even just one and after nearly a year finally have the time to post it, do. Otherwise, I'll stick with what God so often, so clearly, verbatim, boldly, repeatedly states. Seems wise.




.

 

[Particular]

Particular,


1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.


and many, many more that state the same truth.


When you have time, post the verse that states, "Not so, Jesus did not die for all but only for some." As I said, I'll gladly accept just ONE verse that states the new denomination tradition of a few radical Calvinists that you parrot. I've agreed I'll accept just one verse, you don't need to match the number that state the exact opposite.

I don't need to spin anything here. I have no need to quote a verse and then go on and on and on and on and on to insist God's words "mean" the exact opposite of what they state. I'm just accepting what God says. I know you can't. But I'll welcome you posting even one verse that says what you do. If you have even just one and after nearly a year finally have the time to post it, do. Otherwise, I'll stick with what God so often, so clearly, verbatim, boldly, repeatedly states. Seems wise.




.

When you have time, exegete the passages from the 6 verses.
I provided a vast amount more than you did. Those passages prove my point and show you are wrong.
I'm waiting for you to show us how Jesus ransomed all humanity and thus redeemed them, yet somehow he failed to secure them from hell's clutches.

You won't touch it, because you know you have no case. Just 6 sentences taken out of context. Martin Luther would cringe at your methods, Josiah.

I'll stick with the vast number of verses I shared. God is clear. You just can't accept what God tells you.

 

[Josiah]

Those passages prove my point.

No.


OBVIOUSLY, my friend, you have clearly and persistently REFUSED to given even one verse that states what you do. Not one. You keep asking how many verses do I require and I keep telling you I'd accept just one. Anything that states, "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some." Your entire dogma rests wholly and completely on that point of ONLY, SOME, FEW. Where is any verse, just one verse, that states that?

Again, I realize (fully) you have this enormous need to radically SPIN all the many, many verses that literally, verbatim, clearly, in black-and-white words on the page ("Sola Scriptura") state the exact opposite of the new denominational tradition you parrot, you have to SPIN them 180 degrees because the words God stated flat out contradict this denominational tradition you parrot. Obviously you realize that need and clearly you try to do that. Understood. I have no such need.

When you find something that says "Jesus die not die for all" or "Jesus died only for a few" then quote it. Until then, all you have is all you give - the parroting of this new denominational tradition, this horrible idea of yours.




.

 

[Particular]

No.


OBVIOUSLY, my friend, you have clearly and persistently REFUSED to given even one verse that states what you do. Not one. You keep asking how many verses do I require and I keep telling you I'd accept just one. Anything that states, "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some." Your entire dogma rests wholly and completely on that point of ONLY, SOME, FEW. Where is any verse, just one verse, that states that?

Again, I realize (fully) you have this enormous need to radically SPIN all the many, many verses that literally, verbatim, clearly, in black-and-white words on the page ("Sola Scriptura") state the exact opposite of the new denominational tradition you parrot, you have to SPIN them 180 degrees because the words God stated flat out contradict this denominational tradition you parrot. Obviously you realize that need and clearly you try to do that. Understood. I have no such need.

When you find something that says "Jesus die not die for all" or "Jesus died only for a few" then quote it. Until then, all you have is all you give - the parroting of this new denominational tradition, this horrible idea of yours.




.

I provided Sola Scriptura. My verses trump your verses. You are wrong, I am right. God's word wins out over your assertions.

 

[Josiah]

My verses trump your verses.

When you provide a verse that states, "Jesus did not die for all but only for some" then we can discuss whether that verse "trumps" all the verses that literally, verbatim, black-and-white declare the exact opposite.

Until then, you are just endlessly parroting this new horrible denomination tradition and stressing your need to SPIN so many verses 180 degrees because they directly, verbatim contradict what you say.




.