Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[Michael]

If you are in Christ and Christ in you, scripture is pretty clear you have to depart from iniquity...

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Amen. One of my favorite verses!

A great lie of the enemy that has a stronghold in the churches today, is that 'as long as we are in the world we have to sin', or something along that line of carnal thinking.

No. God's Elect are commanded to "depart from iniquity."

There is no provision in the Scripture for continued sin in the "believer."

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1John 3:6-7

Some will mock that Truth, or claim it doesn't apply to them, but the Word cannot be changed. Each one WILL stand before God and give an account in that Day. And God will except no excuse for sin from those He had "saved."

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." - 1Cor 5:10-11a

God's mercy and wisdom upon all who call upon His Name.

 

[Josiah]

Oh yes! If you would ever just read what I actually say, and watch the teachings the Lord has given me, you'd know that I firmly believe and preach that we are saved from bondage by what Jesus alone accomplished by His own obedience to God. (And if you quote me here, please use the entire post. For this is what happens often to Paul's writings; where a sentence is plucked out of context and the whole intent is lost.)

Good! Since you insist that WE HAVE SALVATION then no one needs to achieve it. Our obedience has nothing to do with it. Jesus DID it.

We're done. There is nothing more that can be or should be stated in this thread. It would only serve to contradict and destroy what you stated, "we have salvation" entirely because of Christ.

Those verses I shared above from the very mouth of Jesus, ARE Gospel.

Of course not. They have nothing to do with what Jesus did and gives, they have to do with what people are called to do. They are the definition of Law.

This is key to the error of YOUR "teaching," it confuses Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification, Jesus with self.

[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B] We’re talking way past “being saved” here, which is the very first step of our Journey.

Then, AT BEST, you are in the wrong thread. How many times must many tell you that? What the SAVED should or should not do, what the SAVED can or cannot do is a valid discussion, but NOT THIS ONE. I'm amazed this seems incomprehensible to you. Your effort to insist, "BUT you must do what no one does or you aren't saved" only serves to contradict what you CLAIM to teach - that we HAVE salvation, that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR (and thus does the saving - all of it).





Christianity 101


NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one (including you) - although some might APPEAR so to man.
NO ONE is obedient. NO ONE is sinless, EVERYONE "misses the mark" (the definition of sin).
If you say you have no sin, you are a FOOL and a liar the Bible states. And if you sin, you aren't obedient.
SAINT Paul says he is the "chief of sinners" and thus is disobedient.
SAINT Paul says he is NOT perfect/obedient.


The LAW states we are to be as perfect as God is.
The LAW states we are to be as holy as God is.
The LAW states we are to be as loving as Christ as He died for us.
Doing this makes you obedient - and thus in no need of mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation, justification.
NOT doing this makes you disobedient, falling short (sinful).
NOT doing this 24/7 in thought, word and deed means we are in need to being rescued, saved, redeemed....
It means we need mercy (NOT getting what we deserve), we need grace (getting what we do NOT deserve)....



We are saved by grace (a pure GIFT - unearned, undeserved, unmerited by the receivers) because of Christ (who is THE one and only, all sufficient SAVIOR - not you, not me, not now, not ever, not 100%, not 0.000000001%) which we receive via the divine gift of faith (trust, reliance). Faith is not a meaningless chant but is trusting and relying - looking to the Cross rather than to the mirror (as you keep saying we should do).


Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken. You don't need to do it for Him, as if He blew it and now you gotta help Him get it right.


Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.


Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the mirror.


You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually, ultimately, SELF is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. This is not a "new teaching" it's Satan's old teaching; this is not "the full gospel" it's the repudiation of the Gospel.



WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. His fulfillment of the Law. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR steadfastness. YOUR doing stuff. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? It's simple. It's easy. It ain't rocket science. The Devil, the fallen world, our own sinful self will TRY as HARD AS WE CAN to say "self" while trying to sound Christian and fit Jesus in there somewhere, just not as THE SAVIOR. The Devil, the fallen world, our sinful self will try to pat self on the back for doing X,Y,Z - why we are headed for heaven, to make Jesus as small as we can, self as big as we can, to get our eyes off the Cross and on the mirror. The Devil will try as hard as he can to mix law and gospel, to confuse God's grace with self's works, to transform Jesus from SAVIOR to just a divine helper, a teacher/example/inspiration, a possibility-maker/door opener, the divine OFFERER.... ANYTHING that sounds good and pious but strips Jesus of the role of Savior. The Devil is fine with you worshiping and honoring Jesus - as long as that Jesus does not actually SAVE anyone, when people enter those pearly gates, they will pat SELF on the back. The Devil is cleaver, and as at the Temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, he can even quote Scripture, but you can always tell him lies: what he's really saying is YOU are the savior of YOU.... you will enter heaven because of what YOU do (he will settle for "Jesus did 99% of it and I only 1% but that 1% is why I'm going to heaven" - same/same)



.... now, if you want to change the topic to Sanctification, to the Law as it applies to the SAVED, to what the SAVED should and should not do, that's fine (although not in this thread) but truth cannot contradict truth and Sanctification does not contradict Justification. Your effort and your teaching trying to denounce the Gospel by imposing the Law over it is just satan's old ploy and simply destroys Christianity and leads us to every other religion that all depend on self saving self (albeit with divine help).




A blessed Advent to all.



- Josiah




.

 

[Michael]

Good! Since you insist that WE HAVE SALVATION then no one needs to achieve it. Our obedience has nothing to do with it. Jesus DID it.

We're done. There is nothing more that can be or should be stated in this thread. It would only serve to contradict and destroy what you stated, "we have salvation" entirely because of Christ.

Of course not. They have nothing to do with what Jesus did and gives, they have to do with what people are called to do. They are the definition of Law.

Then, AT BEST, you are in the wrong thread. How many times must many tell you that? What the SAVED should or should not do, what the SAVED can or cannot do is a valid discussion, but NOT THIS ONE. I'm amazed this seems incomprehensible to you. Your effort to insist, "BUT you must do what no one does or you aren't saved" only serves to contradict what you CLAIM to teach - that we HAVE salvation, that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR (and thus does the saving - all of it).


Christianity 101

NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one (including you) - although some might APPEAR so to man.
NO ONE is obedient. NO ONE is sinless, EVERYONE "misses the mark" (the definition of sin).
If you say you have no sin, you are a FOOL and a liar the Bible states. And if you sin, you aren't obedient.
SAINT Paul says he is the "chief of sinners" and thus is disobedient.
SAINT Paul says he is NOT perfect/obedient.

The LAW states we are to be as perfect as God is.
The LAW states we are to be as holy as God is.
The LAW states we are to be as loving as Christ as He died for us.
Doing this makes you obedient - and thus in no need of mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation, justification.
NOT doing this makes you disobedient, falling short (sinful).
NOT doing this 24/7 in thought, word and deed means we are in need to being rescued, saved, redeemed....
It means we need mercy (NOT getting what we deserve), we need grace (getting what we do NOT deserve)....


We are saved by grace (a pure GIFT - unearned, undeserved, unmerited by the receivers) because of Christ (who is THE one and only, all sufficient SAVIOR - not you, not me, not now, not ever, not 100%, not 0.000000001%) which we receive via the divine gift of faith (trust, reliance). Faith is not a meaningless chant but is trusting and relying - looking to the Cross rather than to the mirror (as you keep saying we should do).

Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken. You don't need to do it for Him, as if He blew it and now you gotta help Him get it right.

Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.

The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). It's call Monergism - there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the mirror.

You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually, ultimately, SELF is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. This is not a "new teaching" it's Satan's old teaching; this is not "the full gospel" it's the repudiation of the Gospel.



A blessed Advent to all.

- Josiah
.

Man, you know the "Christian Religion" doctrine well. But it's not the doctrine of the Bible.

For one thing, the Scripture never once states that no one was able to keep the Law, so that's why we needed a Savior. The Bible mentions several that "kept the Law blamelessly."
For another thing...Heaven is not the Goal. Jesus did not die to save us from hell and bring us to heaven. Again, not found in the canon of Scripture.

I have been teaching in churches for several years now on what the actual Goal is, and how we can obtain "Eternal salvation", which, as we know from Hebrews specifically, and much of what Jesus taught, requires "obedience."

You can scream religious quotes at me all day long, using the biggest font you can find, and it won't change the Truth of God's Word. It simply cannot.

My encouragement always to the saints is to "search the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things are so." For much, probably at least 80% of what is taught in the man-made denominations is unScriptural.

May we be found among those who choose to "repent and believe", "deny ourselves, pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus", "present our bodies a living sacrifice", "strive against sin to the shedding of our own blood" and "walk worthy" in "repentance" and "obedience" that we might obtain that precious "Eternal salvation."

For indeed, many who began the Journey "saved" by the Blood of the Lamb will find the door shut in their face in that Day because they refused to obey, or even believe that they needed to.

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom and Understanding to all, as we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


.

 

[Lamb]

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You cannot be sinless while in these sinful bodies. Scripture DOES say that right there.

I hope no one believes the liars (scripture above calls you a liar if you say you can be sinless) that claim you have they can be perfectly obedient in order to have eternal life.

 

[Josiah]

Good! Since you insist that WE HAVE SALVATION then no one needs to achieve it. Our obedience has nothing to do with it. Jesus DID it. Consider what you (correctly) stated and stop contradicting it.

We're done. There is nothing more that can be or should be stated in this thread. It would only serve to contradict and destroy what you stated, "we have salvation" entirely because of Christ.

Of course not. They have nothing to do with what Jesus did and gives, they have to do with what people are called to do. They are the definition of Law.

Then, AT BEST, you are in the wrong thread. How many times must many tell you that? What the SAVED should or should not do, what the SAVED can or cannot do is a valid discussion, but NOT THIS ONE. I'm amazed this seems incomprehensible to you. Your effort to insist, "BUT you must do what no one does or you aren't saved" only serves to contradict what you CLAIM to teach - that we HAVE salvation, that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR (and thus does the saving - all of it).




Christianity 101

NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one (including you) - although some might APPEAR so to man.
NO ONE is obedient. NO ONE is sinless, EVERYONE "misses the mark" (the definition of sin).
If you say you have no sin, you are a FOOL and a liar the Bible states.
And if you sin, you are not obedient.
SAINT Paul says he is the "chief of sinners" and thus is disobedient.
SAINT Paul says he is NOT perfect/obedient.

The LAW states we are to be as perfect as God is. Are you?
The LAW states we are to be as holy as God is. Are you?
The LAW states we are to be as loving as Christ as He died for us.
Doing this makes you obedient - and thus in no need of mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation, justification.
NOT doing this makes you disobedient, falling short (sinful).
NOT doing this 24/7 in thought, word and deed means we are in need to being rescued, saved, redeemed....
It means we need mercy (NOT getting what we deserve), we need grace (getting what we do NOT deserve)....


We are saved by grace (a pure GIFT - unearned, undeserved, unmerited by the receivers) because of Christ (who is THE one and only, all sufficient SAVIOR - not you, not me, not now, not ever, not 100%, not 0.000000001%) which we receive via the divine gift of faith (trust, reliance). Faith is not a meaningless chant but is trusting and relying - looking to the Cross rather than to the mirror (as you keep saying we should do).

Jesus is the Savior. Job's taken. You don't need to do it for Him, as if He blew it and now you gotta help Him get it right.

Jesus Himself asked the most important question in the universe, in eternity.... "Who do you say I am?" The central message, the foundation, the keystone, the distinctive mark of the Christian faith is the belief that we are by nature DEAD and we can't do anything about that - "we've fallen and we can't get up", we are sinners. We need to be SAVED, RESCUED.... and that must come from God for ONLY He can do this.... and this has happened, Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does this via His incarnation, life, death and especially resurrection.


The Devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny that. Even in the "old Adam" of the Christian. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). There is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the mirror.

You'll find LOTS of Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually, ultimately, SELF is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. This is not a "new teaching" it's Satan's old teaching; this is not "the full gospel" it's the repudiation of the Gospel.





.

Man, you know the "Christian Religion" doctrine well. But it's not the doctrine of the Bible.

I have been teaching in churches for several years now on what the actual Goal is, and how we can obtain "Eternal salvation", which, as we know from Hebrews specifically, and much of what Jesus taught, requires "obedience."

"Even if an angel from heaven preaches a doctrine different than ours, he must be accursed."

Your teaching that self saves self by being obedient is not only a repudiation of Christianity but is a mockery of Jesus.


Good luck with your new teaching.... I hope you achieve what eluded St. Paul who called himself the chief of sinners... I hope (for your sake) you prove the Bible wrong when it says "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one" "For all have sinned." "If you say you have no sin you fool yourself and are a liar." "No one is good but God alone."


The devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny Jesus is the Savior. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). Michael, there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the mirror.

You'll find Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually, ultimately, SELF is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. This is not a "new teaching" it's Satan's old teaching; this is not "the full gospel" it's the repudiation of the Gospel.







.

 

[Albion]

I have been teaching in churches for several years now on what the actual Goal is, and how we can obtain "Eternal salvation", which, as we know from Hebrews specifically, and much of what Jesus taught, requires "obedience."

Which cult would that be?

(If you don't mind saying. When people call themselves "non-denominational" but then teach the SDA line or some one similar to it, it is rather unfair to the readers not to know where the poster is actually coming from.)






.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]
[MENTION=1145]hobie[/MENTION]


Since you insist people must be OBEDIENT and thus save themselves, since you hold that SELF keeping the LAW is how self saves self, since you hold that obedience is the cause of salvation, let's look at what the Bible says



The LAW:


What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"



What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


Who is obedient?

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT - and still more in the NT. One who is sinless/obedient keeps thus 24/7 in thought,l word and deed - in what is done and left undone. The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The word means "disobedience." The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


Are we saved by our obedience or by Christ?

Galatians 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."

Romans 8:6, "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh."

Romans 3:20, "By works of the law will no human be justified in God's sight."




The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all.

The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed.

We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.

BOTH of these functions continue after justification..... we are STILL called to be absolutely, divinely PERFECT, we are still called to live civilly in society; indeed Christians have unique commands: to love EXACTLY as Christ did, to LIVE exactly as Christ did, to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc. The Law doesn't disappear or get watered down to nothing (as some Christians insist) when we are justified... but it also has nothing to do with our justification just because we are justified.


Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides")

The theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"



John 3:16 is not a lie.





.

 

[Josiah]

WHO IS THE SAVIOR?


There are only two options: Self or Christ.
There are only two places to look: The Cross or the mirror.
There are two options to trust: The grace/mercy of Christ and His obedience OR the wonderfulness, sinlessness and obedience of self.

We cannot embrace both, since if Christ is NOT the Savior then He's not the Savior. He might be the possibility-maker or the helper or the inspiration or the teacher or the model but He doesn't actually SAVE.


The HOLY SPIRIT will always direct you to the Cross, to the SAVIOR Jesus Christ. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The DEVIL will always direct you to the mirror, to SELF. You must do x,y and z - and this is what saves you, your performance and obedience.
You can easily tell who is talking by what they are saying.
When the devil is talking to you, it's best to tell him where to go.


The devil is perfectly happy with considering Jesus to be the possibility maker ("Jesus opened the door to heaven but YOU GOTTA get yourself through it by YOUR doing X, Y, Z." "Jesus makes it POSSIBLE for everyone to save themselves by performing X, Y, Z"). The devil is perfectly happy with considering Jesus to be the divine helper ("Jesus gives you everything you need to save yourself - the will, the power, the enabling"). The devil is fine with you worshiping Jesus and celebrating Jesus as long as Jesus is not the SAVIOR - the one who SAVES us. He is okay with "Jesus is the Savior...." as long as their is a great big "BUT" added that contradicts the statement and points all to the mirror. When you hear the devil talking, tell him where to go.

 

[Michael]

Which cult would that be?

(If you don't mind saying. When people call themselves "non-denominational" but then teach the SDA line or some one similar to it, it is rather unfair to the readers not to know where the poster is actually coming from.)

.

Actually, been teaching in the Foursquare denomination for a while. (Similar to the AOG and Calvary Chapel doctrine.) Thanks for asking! reach: :bible:

Now, I don't agree with everything they adhere to, but there are a few of us who present such as I've presented here in this Forum, and the leaders may not totally understand, but they know what we teach cannot be refuted. And I've been asked time and again to share. Have been blessed to teach/preach many Bible Studies and Services these past 10-12 years.

 

[Michael]

"Even if an angel from heaven preaches a doctrine different than ours, he must be accursed."

Your teaching that self saves self by being obedient is not only a repudiation of Christianity but is a mockery of Jesus.


Good luck with your new teaching.... I hope you achieve what eluded St. Paul who called himself the chief of sinners... I hope (for your sake) you prove the Bible wrong when it says "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one" "For all have sinned." "If you say you have no sin you fool yourself and are a liar." "No one is good but God alone."


The devil and our dead, sinful, unregenerate self ("the old Adam") will work hard, work overtime, to undermine and deny Jesus is the Savior. Trying to make self as BIG as possible ("I ain't that bad, just you are" ) and Christ as LITTLE as possible ("technically, Jesus SAVES no one, He just makes it possible for all to be saved" "Jesus is not the Savior but the divine Helper, Possibility-Maker, Door Opener, Orderer"). Synergism is a fruit of this. Satan is not so stupid to out right deny Jesus but just belittle Him, make Him as impotent and irrelevant as possible.... while making self as well, as good, as capable, as important in the salvation of himself as possible. Make Jesus small.... make self big.

Christianity proclaims that JESUS (not self) IS (really, actually, factually) THE (one and only, all-sufficient) SAVIOR (not just a helper or door opening or possibility-maker). There is no other name under heaven by which salvation can come (including your own). Michael, there is ONE Savior, and it ain't you, it's Jesus. For salvation, Christianity directs us to the Cross, not the mirror.

You'll find Christians who will say "Jesus is my Savior" and then go on and on and on and on contradicting that, denouncing that, INSISTING that actually, ultimately, SELF is the reason self is going to Heaven because SELF did X,Y,Z - ultimately, self doing X,Y,Z is why they will be in heaven (a repudiation of the Gospel, of Christianity, of the central teaching that Jesus is the Savior). They will proclaim (often not realizing it) that they are saying Jesus technically saves no one, He just orders people to be saved and maybe HELPS them in that regard or OPENS THE DOOR to heaven making salvation something we can achieve - anything, anything BUT the Savior. Why? Satan wants all to look away from Christ, to denounce the Gospel (and he likely needs to get us to do this in ways we don't recognize). Satan feeds our ego ("You ain't so bad..... you can do this") and ultimately to credit self and self doing X,Y.Z. and our "old Adam" likes for our ego to be fed and encouraged; we tend to swallow this. It means we abandon Christianity and go to other religions, all of which teach that while people are seriously messed up, it's not something they can't fix with sufficient divine help and time (no need for a SAVIOR but only a HELPER, TEACHER, INSPIRATION, POSSIBILITY-MAKER). In reality, THAT is the soteriology expressed by a lot of Christians (perhaps unexamined). And it's the anti-thesis of Christianity, it's the teaching of Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism. This is not a "new teaching" it's Satan's old teaching; this is not "the full gospel" it's the repudiation of the Gospel.

.

Curious what you do with Heb 5:9, and the literally hundreds of other passages I've presented which speak of the required "obedience" of those who will inherit the promises of God.

Can you accept even Heb 5:9?

May the veil be lifted.

 

[Andrew]

Curious what you do with Heb 5:9, and the literally hundreds of other passages I've presented which speak of the required "obedience" of those who will inherit the promises of God.

Can you accept even Heb 5:9?

May the veil be lifted.

You assume that the good Lord doesn't put obedience in our hearts, the Word teaches us with full authority what is good and what is not good, and although we aren't perfect God allows us grace to mature through conviction of the heart as a Father would. When I feel conviction I know he forgives me but it does not mean that I can simply rid that awful feeling of conviction as if I were still prior to being saved, for example I can't just go back to my atheist ways and enjoy the things that now as a Christian totally convicts me.. It's impossible!
I still have a sinful nature but as a Christian I am reformed, there are a list of things that I no longer enjoy that I used to.. I'm obedient to the Word because I keep the faith and never reject my teacher.. Michael, I appreciate your reiteration of lines from the Gospel but I have the Gospel myself and can read it with for myself, to hear it from a man who claims to be sinless (no offense) is to obey a liar, for if we say we are sinless we are liars.
Please don't assume that we are no better than an unbeliever, please don't assume that the Gospel doesn't preach forgiveness of past, present, and future sin, and please don't assume we haven't turned from our former wicked ways.
You know some wealthy good mannered atheist do better humanly "works" than all of us 'naturally', but Jesus did not come for the righteous but to the damaged, ruined, sick, helpless, and not for the perfect, happy, well groomed and righteous.. the difference between us and them is that our works are Gods blessings and Will and their works are circumstantial but faithless .. BIG difference!
You can't continue to harp on those who have faith but retain imperfections, God is working in us to become perfected! That's grace!
Imperfection is what humbles us in the face of the Lord, his dwelling in us is sufficient as long as we hold the faith!
Admit you are still sinful Michael, no matter how far you have come in faith you aren't raised into perfection until the glorious resurrection, you cannot compete with Christ, you cannot say "I am like Christ", not even the Pope can say that.
Peace, blessings and understanding my friend but Christians as we are -have no competitor, only Gods Word and forgiveness through Christ's atonement.

 

[Michael]

You assume that the good Lord doesn't put obedience in our hearts, the Word teaches us with full authority what is good and what is not good, and although we aren't perfect God allows us grace to mature through conviction of the heart as a Father would. When I feel conviction I know he forgives me but it does not mean that I can simply rid that awful feeling of conviction as if I were still prior to being saved, for example I can't just go back to my atheist ways and enjoy the things that now as a Christian totally convicts me.. It's impossible!
I still have a sinful nature but as a Christian I am reformed, there are a list of things that I no longer enjoy that I used to.. I'm obedient to the Word because I keep the faith and never reject my teacher.. Michael, I appreciate your reiteration of lines from the Gospel but I have the Gospel myself and can read it with for myself, to hear it from a man who claims to be sinless (no offense) is to obey a liar, for if we say we are sinless we are liars.
Please don't assume that we are no better than an unbeliever, please don't assume that the Gospel doesn't preach forgiveness of past, present, and future sin, and please don't assume we haven't turned from our former wicked ways.
You know some wealthy good mannered atheist do better humanly "works" than all of us 'naturally', but Jesus did not come for the righteous but to the damaged, ruined, sick, helpless, and not for the perfect, happy, well groomed and righteous.. the difference between us and them is that our works are Gods blessings and Will and their works are circumstantial but faithless .. BIG difference!
You can't continue to harp on those who have faith but retain imperfections, God is working in us to become perfected! That's grace!
Imperfection is what humbles us in the face of the Lord, his dwelling in us is sufficient as long as we hold the faith!
Admit you are still sinful Michael, no matter how far you have come in faith you aren't raised into perfection until the glorious resurrection, you cannot compete with Christ, you cannot say "I am like Christ", not even the Pope can say that.
Peace, blessings and understanding my friend but Christians as we are -have no competitor, only Gods Word and forgiveness through Christ's atonement.

Oh brother Andrew, bless you. You have a good heart. In fact you had that "good and honest heart" before you ever heard of Jesus. That is why the seed of the Kingdom took root and is bearing fruit in your life.

I believe you've at least skimmed through some of what I present in the Bible Studies and video teachings. And if so, you can see that I never put myself better than anyone, or perfected, or sinless, or my own savior. Never said such.
As many accused Jesus of things, so some accuse me falsely of many things which I never said or implied. Simply quoting Scripture verbatim (which is most of what I share) brings conviction perhaps upon the reader, and they take it out on the messenger, as the religious folk took it out on Jesus, John the Baptist, the Prophets and Apostles.

The New Testament warns us again and again that we must repent and be obedient if we are to inherit the Kingdom and the promises of God to "he who overcomes.". That was Jesus main message to those He had called to follow Him. Again, this is beyond initial salvation from bondage to sin. Forgiveness indeed comes to the one who will "repent, believe, and be baptized" as Jesus taught. But future sins are NOT automatically forgiven when we "accept Christ." I know some preacher-men will lift a verse or two from context in attempt to "prove" there is some sort of "eternal forgiveness" or "state of grace" into which church-goers enter, but literally hundreds of passages, especially the warnings of Paul to those who have been "saved", have to be dismissed to believe such a doctrine.

What we must realize is that there is no verse of the New Testament that can be dismissed, and no single verse cancels out another. John 3:16 cannot cancel out Heb 5:9 for example. Nor can Paul's quotation of Joel 2:32 in Rom 10:13 be received without believing what Jesus, Himself, taught in Matt 13:21 and Mark 13:13. Many will lay hold of the former of these two examples, yet ignore the latter. What we believe and teach is that BOTH the former and latter are True for us. That is a much fuller picture of the Gospel, and leaves out nothing Jesus taught. And there are many more passages I could bring up like these. So often it seems, I will post a teaching using dozens of passages quoted directly from the Scripture, and someone will try to refute me with a verse of two taken out of context, as if somehow a couple verses cancel out a great portion of what Jesus taught and the Holy Spirit revealed through the Apostles.

And, no, I have never "harped" on anyone for not being perfect yet. Indeed the grace of God is what gives us the ability to obey when we actually apply it. I, myself, am far from where the Lord has called me. But He will not, cannot, be obedient for me. That's just not Bible. So, as did the Apostles and Prophets throughout the entire Bible, we join them in laying forth the "whole counsel of God" in our teaching that the saints must "repent" and "obey" if we are to see the promises of God fulfilled in our lives. God has not changed one iota from His demand that we "walk worthy." And that, as the Apostle Paul, is my aim and goal. For we who have been "saved" will only hear "well done good and faithful servant" if indeed we have done more than simply believed, but have actually "done good and been faithful" as we served Him. Amen.

May we gain renewed knowledge this Christmas, and truly walk the Way of the Cross as we strive diligently to enter the "rest of God."

Peace & Blessings.

 

[Andrew]

Oh brother Andrew, bless you. You have a good heart. In fact you had that "good and honest heart" before you ever heard of Jesus. That is why the seed of the Kingdom took root and is bearing fruit in your life.

I believe you've at least skimmed through some of what I present in the Bible Studies and video teachings. And if so, you can see that I never put myself better than anyone, or perfected, or sinless, or my own savior. Never said such.
As many accused Jesus of things, so some accuse me falsely of many things which I never said or implied. Simply quoting Scripture verbatim (which is most of what I share) brings conviction perhaps upon the reader, and they take it out on the messenger, as the religious folk took it out on Jesus, John the Baptist, the Prophets and Apostles.

The New Testament warns us again and again that we must repent and be obedient if we are to inherit the Kingdom and the promises of God to "he who overcomes.". That was Jesus main message to those He had called to follow Him. Again, this is beyond initial salvation from bondage to sin. Forgiveness indeed comes to the one who will "repent, believe, and be baptized" as Jesus taught. But future sins are NOT automatically forgiven when we "accept Christ." I know some preacher-men will lift a verse or two from context in attempt to "prove" there is some sort of "eternal forgiveness" or "state of grace" into which church-goers enter, but literally hundreds of passages, especially the warnings of Paul to those who have been "saved", have to be dismissed to believe such a doctrine.

What we must realize is that there is no verse of the New Testament that can be dismissed, and no single verse cancels out another. John 3:16 cannot cancel out Heb 5:9 for example. Nor can Paul's quotation of Joel 2:32 in Rom 10:13 be received without believing what Jesus, Himself, taught in Matt 13:21 and Mark 13:13. Many will lay hold of the former of these two examples, yet ignore the latter. What we believe and teach is that BOTH the former and latter are True for us. That is a much fuller picture of the Gospel, and leaves out nothing Jesus taught. And there are many more passages I could bring up like these. So often it seems, I will post a teaching using dozens of passages quoted directly from the Scripture, and someone will try to refute me with a verse of two taken out of context, as if somehow a couple verses cancel out a great portion of what Jesus taught and the Holy Spirit revealed through the Apostles.

And, no, I have never "harped" on anyone for not being perfect yet. Indeed the grace of God is what gives us the ability to obey when we actually apply it. I, myself, am far from where the Lord has called me. But He will not, cannot, be obedient for me. That's just not Bible. So, as did the Apostles and Prophets throughout the entire Bible, we join them in laying forth the "whole counsel of God" in our teaching that the saints must "repent" and "obey" if we are to see the promises of God fulfilled in our lives. God has not changed one iota from His demand that we "walk worthy." And that, as the Apostle Paul, is my aim and goal. For we who have been "saved" will only hear "well done good and faithful servant" if indeed we have done more than simply believed, but have actually "done good and been faithful" as we served Him. Amen.

May we gain renewed knowledge this Christmas, and truly walk the Way of the Cross as we strive diligently to enter the "rest of God."

Peace & Blessings.

Brother you assume that we haven't read the bible for ourselves, that we have yet to repent and obey, that we have yet to believe and that we probably won't overcome in the end, because that's the way you preach to us at CH, as if we refuse to repent and hope not to overcome..

I like your videos
You would make a good missionary for those who need to hear the Gospel, but only the Gospel can preach to the Choir, I tried Holiness living according to the Pentecostal church I attended a few years ago.. I found myself a competitor of men but God said in my heart to please no mans eyes but to walk in humbleness, meekness and patience with Him to the end and He will not leave my side.
In this world we expect tribulation, turbulent times will try us, the devil will accuse us and attempt to exploit our sins to judge us, the devil is a liar who wants us to question our belief and our devotion to faith in the Lord, the gates of hell shall not prevail against our Love of Christ.
No sin, nor tribulation, nor flesh can separate us from the Love of God, He forgives us our trespasses as long as we forgive others.
Love God
Love your neighbor

 

[hjhsjnsshdjdh]

Many people know about God, but less actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
Matthew 19:16-17
"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
Matthew 19:20-22
"20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Unsaved people can’t obey. Saved people will obey.

"GOD be merciful to me a sinner." And he went away justified but the Pharisee did not.

 

[Michael]

Brother you assume that we haven't read the bible for ourselves, that we have yet to repent and obey, that we have yet to believe and that we probably won't overcome in the end, because that's the way you preach to us at CH, as if we refuse to repent and hope not to overcome..

I like your videos
You would make a good missionary for those who need to hear the Gospel, but only the Gospel can preach to the Choir, I tried Holiness living according to the Pentecostal church I attended a few years ago.. I found myself a competitor of men but God said in my heart to please no mans eyes but to walk in humbleness, meekness and patience with Him to the end and He will not leave my side.
In this world we expect tribulation, turbulent times will try us, the devil will accuse us and attempt to exploit our sins to judge us, the devil is a liar who wants us to question our belief and our devotion to faith in the Lord, the gates of hell shall not prevail against our Love of Christ.
No sin, nor tribulation, nor flesh can separate us from the Love of God, He forgives us our trespasses as long as we forgive others.
Love God
Love your neighbor

Dear brother, I appreciate you and your input.
Regarding what I teach, and why I share... I can only go by what I see and hear. A great many of the passages I reference seem unknown to many.

And honestly, the message the Lord has given me is not for the "unsaved", but for those who have confessed His Name. As the Prophets throughout the generations, God's greatest promises and warnings are directly to His chosen and saved people. The Apostles Paul, John, Peter. James & Jude wrote all their epistles to "believers" who had been "saved" and "forgiven." The things I share, as did they, are for us, not to those outside the church.

And "sin" absolutely will "separate us from God", as we read in Isaiah 59:2. That is an unchangeable Kingdom Truth. Paul in Romans 8 tells us that nothing external can separate us. Our own sin and iniquity is internal. If we do not "crucify our flesh with its lusts and passions" we will not "inherit the Kingdom."

Jesus did not die on the Cross so we wouldn't have to. He died so we could die.

Telling the Truth is loving my neighbor. :bible:

Peace & Blessings to you, friend, and all who walk with Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

And "sin" absolutely will "separate us from God", as we read in Isaiah 59:2. That is an unchangeable Kingdom Truth. Paul in Romans 8 tells us that nothing external can separate us. Our own sin and iniquity is internal. If we do not "crucify our flesh with its lusts and passions" we will not "inherit the Kingdom."

Jesus did not die on the Cross so we wouldn't have to. He died so we could die.

You aren't preaching the Gospel...the Good News about Jesus!! I think it's absolutely horrible that you are trying to turn Christian believers away from the one who died for our sins because HIS DEATH and Resurrection no longer separates us from God. Your claims show that you don't trust in Jesus at all. You are looking to you alone.

 

[Michael]

You aren't preaching the Gospel...the Good News about Jesus!! I think it's absolutely horrible that you are trying to turn Christian believers away from the one who died for our sins because HIS DEATH and Resurrection no longer separates us from God. Your claims show that you don't trust in Jesus at all. You are looking to you alone.

Oh sister, but "repentance" IS one of the main, vital aspects of the Gospel!! The Truth that we actually can stop sinning is wonderful news indeed! Paul taught this Truth in every one of this epistles. And Jesus, Himself, warns the church, not the world, that we must walk worthy in repentance and obedience if our names are to be found in the Book of Life in that Day. Written to those IN the church, those who had already been "saved" & "forgiven", our Lord and Savior declares this unchanging Kingdom Truth -

“I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” - Rev 3:1b-6

That IS wonderful news!! That only those who have, in reality, not just in word, walked worthy of their calling, the Gospel, the Kingdom, of Christ, and of God, will inherit Creation and be given authority over all the works of Gods hands, having been conformed into the image of the Firstborn Son of God, and are now seated with Him on His Throne, sharing in His Glory.
Truly, this is not only "good news", but the Greatest News ever!! :ange06:

 

[Lamb]

The Truth that we actually can stop sinning is wonderful news indeed!

How are you doing with that? I bet you still sin.

"If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us and we deceive ourselves."

 

[Michael]

How are you doing with that? I bet you still sin.

"If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us and we deceive ourselves."

The question is.. how are all of us doing with what the Lord Jesus has said?

Personally, I am striving to do as well as the Apostles Paul and John and those First Century disciples who received the Word of Jesus as He described how a real "saved" person will behave - “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" (Luke 9:23) and "he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." (Matt 10:38)

Oh yes, the Question God is asking us is... what are we doing with the opportunity given us by Christ? Will we actually believe Him and obey, so that we may receive "eternal salvation"?

 

[Lamb]

The question is.. how are all of us doing with what the Lord Jesus has said?

Personally, I am striving to do as well as the Apostles Paul and John and those First Century disciples who received the Word of Jesus as He described how a real "saved" person will behave - “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" (Luke 9:23) and "he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." (Matt 10:38)

Oh yes, the Question God is asking us is... what are we doing with the opportunity given us by Christ? Will we actually believe Him and obey, so that we may receive "eternal salvation"?

Eternal salvation is dependent upon Jesus and the forgiveness of sins that He atoned for at the cross. You sin. If you say you don't then you lie. The question is do you believe God forgives you so you can have eternal life?