Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[Michael]

How are you doing with that obeying the Commandments...have you even been able to fully obey the first one? If you say you have no sin you deceive yourself.

You cannot fully obey the Commandment as God requires. ONLY JESUS has done that. That's why we trust in His obedience for our salvation. We are clothed in Him in our baptism which means that God sees us the same as He sees His Son, with whom He is well pleased. Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

If you are striving to do something for your salvation then you aren't trusting in the one who can actually do it for you...Jesus the Savior.

You have to remember, friend, that "salvation" is the very first step. Most of what I, and others, share on here is addressing what needs to happen after we get saved and forgiven.
For what we DO with our opportunity granted us by God in Christ Jesus is what will determine our Eternal lot.

 

[Josiah]

He wrote the Commandments with His own finger, so we have what it means to obey. We can see that we by nature are all servants of sin and Satan, and that as soon as we submit to Christ, we become loosed from Satan’s power, free to obey our Master "unto righteousness".

Again, you seem to be unaware of what thread you are posting in..... The issue before us is NOT what the SAVED should and should not therefore do, NOT what the SAVED can and cannot therefore do. Your interjecting a different point is simply confusing things and giving the impression that we are SAVED by our obedience, which of course is a complete repudiation of Christianity. Perhaps that is your intent.


See posts 4 and 10




.

 

[Lamb]

Salvation by man's hand instead of God's is Satan's way of pulling the sheep into his own fold and away from God by enticing them that they can save themselves and God cannot.

 

[Michael]

Salvation by man's hand instead of God's is Satan's way of pulling the sheep into his own fold and away from God by enticing them that they can save themselves and God cannot.

Only God can save us, and set our feet on the path. Amen.

Just as when He saved Israel out of bondage in Egypt, by the Blood of His Son He saves us from bondage to sin. But then we must walk it out if we are to receive what He promised. Amen.

Realizing that God promised the Land to millions of individuals who then didn't attain because of disobedience; we come to know that if God has "saved" us, then we must (as Paul warns throughout his epistles) "walk worthy", and "work out our salvation with fear & trembling" if we are to obtain the promises of God.

To those who are "saved" the Spirit warns, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - 1Cor 10:12

And NO, they did not lose their salvation, they just didn't "work it out", and therefore did not enter the Land.

Indeed, "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation"? (Heb 2:3)

You cannot "neglect" something you never had. Amen.

This is basic Christianity 101. reach: :bible:

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[Lamb]

Only God can save us, and set our feet on the path. Amen.

Just as when He saved Israel out of bondage in Egypt, by the Blood of His Son He saves us from bondage to sin. But then we must walk it out if we are to receive what He promised. Amen.

Realizing that God promised the Land to millions of individuals who then didn't attain because of disobedience; we come to know that if God has "saved" us, then we must (as Paul warns throughout his epistles) "walk worthy", and "work out our salvation with fear & trembling" if we are to obtain the promises of God.

To those who are "saved" the Spirit warns, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - 1Cor 10:12

And NO, they did not lose their salvation, they just didn't "work it out", and therefore did not enter the Land.

Indeed, "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation"? (Heb 2:3)

You cannot "neglect" something you never had. Amen.

This is basic Christianity 101. reach: :bible:

.

It's not "work for" your salvation. Working out means remaining in faith and that means trusting that God has forgiven you of your sins and you are His child, kept in His fold because of Him. If you reject the faith of the forgiveness of sins then you won't have eternal life.

Being obedient is trusting God. (you know, by grace through faith, not by works)

 

[psalms 91]

It's not "work for" your salvation. Working out means remaining in faith and that means trusting that God has forgiven you of your sins and you are His child, kept in His fold because of Him. If you reject the faith of the forgiveness of sins then you won't have eternal life.

Being obedient is trusting God. (you know, by grace through faith, not by works)

Since we all still sin does that mean that noone has faith? I think not

 

[Michael]

It's not "work for" your salvation. Working out means remaining in faith and that means trusting that God has forgiven you of your sins and you are His child, kept in His fold because of Him. If you reject the faith of the forgiveness of sins then you won't have eternal life.

Being obedient is trusting God. (you know, by grace through faith, not by works)

Our obedience is proven only by what we DO, not claim to believe. Indeed, the Lord will never judge or recompense us according to our faith, only our works.

 

[Andrew]

Our obedience is proven only by what we DO, not claim to believe. Indeed, the Lord will never judge or recompense us according to our faith, only our works.

Yes but what about what we don't do?
To me that's repentance and deliverance.
What we should do is preach the word to those who have a false misconception of what accepting Christ is really about.
We will slip up again and again because we are not Christ but we should follow him and hold our faith until the end!
Preaching to the choir is simply that, what everyone needs is a lifestyle change through Jesus Christ and to know that they were forgiven 2000 years ago, but without faith all is vanity.
The scripture preaches well on how to live a Christian life, thus we should preach the gospel and encourage the reading of the word as we also lead by example.
I know that I stand out in my youth because I don't get involved with perverted conversations nor do I enjoy using fowl language or going to their parties, I'm not afraid to say that I'm a Christian and I also don't feel humiliated when I'm mocked for it.. When it's me and another one on one and we have a lengthy discussion about my belief they usually tend to listen and debate and ultimately appreciate the conversation and reconcile, which is a start.

 

[Lamb]

Our obedience is proven only by what we DO, not claim to believe. Indeed, the Lord will never judge or recompense us according to our faith, only our works.

You sin. Right? I mean you aren't perfect since ONLY Jesus is perfect. So everything you do is tainted by sin.

So when God judges you what does He see?

According to YOUR gospel you say you are judged based on what you do and that's it. You do realize you can't be good enough to make it to heaven don't you?

According to the truth of the Christian Gospel, the GOOD NEWS, Jesus paid the price for sin. All sin. ALL SIN needed to be atoned for and Jesus is the propitiation for those sins. So according to the truth, we are clothed in Jesus at our baptism and that means that when judged we won't fail. We have been marked NOT GUILTY because of Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

Since we all still sin does that mean that noone has faith? I think not

I have no idea what you're getting at.

Faith is a gift from God. It doesn't emanate from within us.

 

[Andrew]

You sin. Right? I mean you aren't perfect since ONLY Jesus is perfect. So everything you do is tainted by sin.

So when God judges you what does He see?

According to YOUR gospel you say you are judged based on what you do and that's it. You do realize you can't be good enough to make it to heaven don't you?

According to the truth of the Christian Gospel, the GOOD NEWS, Jesus paid the price for sin. All sin. ALL SIN needed to be atoned for and Jesus is the propitiation for those sins. So according to the truth, we are clothed in Jesus at our baptism and that means that when judged we won't fail. We have been marked NOT GUILTY because of Jesus.

Yep there is nothing more we can do but the charity works of love for another that God puts in us, im thankful God delivered me from my shop lifting habit and disrespect to my parents, those two I call "free ones" that just came with the gift of Gods calling it's no longer in my heart or mind to do again and with this epiphany I know I am His... Love God, Love your neighbors, it is finished

 

[Michael]

Eternal Salvation requires obedience and repentance

Yes but what about what we don't do?
To me that's repentance and deliverance.
What we should do is preach the word to those who have a false misconception of what accepting Christ is really about.
We will slip up again and again because we are not Christ but we should follow him and hold our faith until the end!
Preaching to the choir is simply that, what everyone needs is a lifestyle change through Jesus Christ and to know that they were forgiven 2000 years ago, but without faith all is vanity.
The scripture preaches well on how to live a Christian life, thus we should preach the gospel and encourage the reading of the word as we also lead by example.
I know that I stand out in my youth because I don't get involved with perverted conversations nor do I enjoy using fowl language or going to their parties, I'm not afraid to say that I'm a Christian and I also don't feel humiliated when I'm mocked for it.. When it's me and another one on one and we have a lengthy discussion about my belief they usually tend to listen and debate and ultimately appreciate the conversation and reconcile, which is a start.

Amen.
Indeed we should speak about God's saving grace and what Jesus did to those who yet have no hope, as the Lord leads. I personally do not see "blanket evangelism" in the Scripture. But definitely the Lord will open doors to share our faith with others.
Lord bless you for being a "light" by your "good works." (i.e. Matt 5:16)

And then, as you so accurately stated, "The scripture preaches well on how to live a Christian life." This is where so many get tripped up on, believing that "being saved" is the end and how we live doesn't really matter. Those who oppose me (and the bulk of the NT) here on this site are stuck at the very first step out of bondage. So many seem to have been taught by their pastors or priests that being "saved" is the ultimate goal and end of our faith, when in fact, as Jesus taught, and Paul wrote throughout his epistles, it is only the beginning. Unless Jesus and the Apostles were themselves limited in their understanding, we must absolutely "walk worthy" and "overcome" and "endure til the end" if we are to inherit the promises of God in Revelation 2 & 3.
And Scripturally, to "repent" is to "turn away from sin"; and that is something WE must DO. I've been covering that extensively in the Repentance thread here on CH - https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7848-REPENTANCE. We present far too much Scripture, both OT and NT, that this Truth simply cannot be dismissed. Repentance is only proven by our action, our conduct. A few on this forum struggle greatly with that understanding.

A man who ministered around the world and was Senior Pastor for 46 years in a church I was deeply involved with for many years wrote a wonderful little booklet entitled, "But What If We Don't?" which every church-goer would benefit greatly from reading. In it he points out multitudes of Bible passages that tell us who have been "saved" how we are supposed to behave. So... what will God do if we don't? If we claim to have 'given our life to Jesus' but do not obey the commands of God given through Christ and the Apostles, which is the main thrust of the New Testament, will God still say "well done" even if we haven't done well? Of course not. When the Spirit opens our eyes to see and understand the Parables of Jesus, we find that "outer darkness" is only ever mentioned s the destiny for the "servants" of the Lord; meaning these were definitely "saved" and "forgiven" individuals. There is no explaining this away. Many modern preachers mislead their congregations by declaring that all the warnings in the NT are to the 'unsaved', while all the promises are for those who have 'accepted Jesus and what He did on the Cross.' The prophetic Word of Jer 23:16-22 applies directly to such. God will have a holy priesthood, a Body for the Head, a counterpart for Christ Jesus, who have been perfected by actual, not imputed, righteousness; those who have actually "turned from the evil of their doings." . That is Biblical Repentance. Anything less that us actually "putting to death the deeds of our flesh" is "sorrow" perhaps, but not the repentance and God requires of those who will inherit "eternal salvation."

And let me put this out to all again... no single verse overrides or cancels out another. If we cannot receive Heb 5:9 - and realize that "obey" does not mean 'accept Him', for this is written to people who have already been "saved" - then where are we? We deny the Word.
John 3:16 does not negate what the Holy Spirit declared through the writer of Hebrews. And if Paul, himself, knew that he had to DO much to assure his eternal destiny, how can we claim some special knowledge beyond the Scripture and believe that there is nothing we do (or don't do) that can effect our eternal destiny?

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits." - Heb 6:1-3

If "being saved" wasn't the end for the Apostles, then it isn't our end either. Truly we have a "race to run." May we run it well, and prove our faith to be real.
May we run as did the Apostle of Christ -

"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-con"rol in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." - 1Cor 9:24-27 ESV

Amen.

God's wisdom and understanding to all.

.

 

[Michael]

You sin. Right? I mean you aren't perfect since ONLY Jesus is perfect. So everything you do is tainted by sin.

So when God judges you what does He see?

According to YOUR gospel you say you are judged based on what you do and that's it. You do realize you can't be good enough to make it to heaven don't you?

According to the truth of the Christian Gospel, the GOOD NEWS, Jesus paid the price for sin. All sin. ALL SIN needed to be atoned for and Jesus is the propitiation for those sins. So according to the truth, we are clothed in Jesus at our baptism and that means that when judged we won't fail. We have been marked NOT GUILTY because of Jesus.

Ma'am, again, we are not on the same page. Same Book, just different pages.

You are speaking Truth concerning "being saved", which is the very beginning of our walk with Christ.

What I am presenting, as does most of the New Testament, is what is ahead for those few who will truly "walk worthy" and "overcome" by "repenting" and "obeying", that they might attain the promises of Revelation 2 & 3.

Again, it's okay to learn something new.

Peace & Blessings!

 

[Michael]

I have no idea what you're getting at.

Faith is a gift from God. It doesn't emanate from within us.

"The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you." - Luke 17:5-6 ESV

Faith is something we must exercise. It's something we must DO.

 

[Lamb]

"The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you." - Luke 17:5-6 ESV

Faith is something we must exercise. It's something we must DO.

We have faith because God gives it to us. When we do something because we have faith, that is not what gives us salvation. As Josiah keeps saying you are confusing Justification with how a Christian lives his life. It's not the same thing.

 

[Lamb]

Ma'am, again, we are not on the same page. Same Book, just different pages.

You are speaking Truth concerning "being saved", which is the very beginning of our walk with Christ.

What I am presenting, as does most of the New Testament, is what is ahead for those few who will truly "walk worthy" and "overcome" by "repenting" and "obeying", that they might attain the promises of Revelation 2 & 3.

Again, it's okay to learn something new.

Peace & Blessings!

Salvation is how we have eternal life. WE cannot earn it. Jesus did. That should really be the end of the discussion for a Christian. Christians trust in Christ.

 

[Andrew]

Amen.
Indeed we should speak about God's saving grace and what Jesus did to those who yet have no hope, as the Lord leads. I personally do not see "blanket evangelism" in the Scripture. But definitely the Lord will open doors to share our faith with others.
Lord bless you for being a "light" by your "good works." (i.e. Matt 5:16)

And then, as you so accurately stated, "The scripture preaches well on how to live a Christian life." This is where so many get tripped up on, believing that "being saved" is the end and how we live doesn't really matter. Those who oppose me (and the bulk of the NT) here on this site are stuck at the very first step out of bondage. So many seem to have been taught by their pastors or priests that being "saved" is the ultimate goal and end of our faith, when in fact, as Jesus taught, and Paul wrote throughout his epistles, it is only the beginning. Unless Jesus and the Apostles were themselves limited in their understanding, we must absolutely "walk worthy" and "overcome" and "endure til the end" if we are to inherit the promises of God in Revelation 2 & 3.
And Scripturally, to "repent" is to "turn away from sin"; and that is something WE must DO. I've been covering that extensively in the Repentance thread here on CH - https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7848-REPENTANCE. We present far too much Scripture, both OT and NT, that this Truth simply cannot be dismissed. Repentance is only proven by our action, our conduct. A few on this forum struggle greatly with that understanding.

A man who ministered around the world and was Senior Pastor for 46 years in a church I was deeply involved with for many years wrote a wonderful little booklet entitled, "But What If We Don't?" which every church-goer would benefit greatly from reading. In it he points out multitudes of Bible passages that tell us who have been "saved" how we are supposed to behave. So... what will God do if we don't? If we claim to have 'given our life to Jesus' but do not obey the commands of God given through Christ and the Apostles, which is the main thrust of the New Testament, will God still say "well done" even if we haven't done well? Of course not. When the Spirit opens our eyes to see and understand the Parables of Jesus, we find that "outer darkness" is only ever mentioned s the destiny for the "servants" of the Lord; meaning these were definitely "saved" and "forgiven" individuals. There is no explaining this away. Many modern preachers mislead their congregations by declaring that all the warnings in the NT are to the 'unsaved', while all the promises are for those who have 'accepted Jesus and what He did on the Cross.' The prophetic Word of Jer 23:16-22 applies directly to such. God will have a holy priesthood, a Body for the Head, a counterpart for Christ Jesus, who have been perfected by actual, not imputed, righteousness; those who have actually "turned from the evil of their doings." . That is Biblical Repentance. Anything less that us actually "putting to death the deeds of our flesh" is "sorrow" perhaps, but not the repentance and God requires of those who will inherit "eternal salvation."

And let me put this out to all again... no single verse overrides or cancels out another. If we cannot receive Heb 5:9 - and realize that "obey" does not mean 'accept Him', for this is written to people who have already been "saved" - then where are we? We deny the Word.
John 3:16 does not negate what the Holy Spirit declared through the writer of Hebrews. And if Paul, himself, knew that he had to DO much to assure his eternal destiny, how can we claim some special knowledge beyond the Scripture and believe that there is nothing we do (or don't do) that can effect our eternal destiny?

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits." - Heb 6:1-3

If "being saved" wasn't the end for the Apostles, then it isn't our end either. Truly we have a "race to run." May we run it well, and prove our faith to be real.
May we run as did the Apostle of Christ -

"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-con"rol in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." - 1Cor 9:24-27 ESV

Amen.

God's wisdom and understanding to all.

.

May Gods grace be with us all as we mature in his likeness, but remain humble and don't force effort in hopes that he may bless you for he has already perfected us and blessed us by creating us afresh.
There is always room for learning and correcting... for example Paul preaches to the Corinthians on how it is unacceptable that while holding the love feast to leave one starving and another full and drunken as a banquet of gluttons without order or consideration.. (The love feast was the sharing of food with the poorer and less fortunate believers among the Christians)

"Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not" - 1 Corinthians 11:17-22

According to Terttulian the church heard and corrected itself accordingly to Pauls letter, for according to him they began in prayer, and as one sang hymns, preached or prophesied, the others ate and one by one all were fed equally and order was established, they ended the feast closing in prayer..

Did Paul denounce them completely because they were disorderly? No he didn't, but because they read his epistle they felt conviction, thus the scripture is our guide and every Christian knows this.. It's Gods words that settle in the Christian hearts, not because Paul told them so but because God put it in Pauls heart to tell them so, and in them through God did they do these things, it's all God and through His word, not of ourselves or we would still be gluttons at church gatherings, probably why the priests today still equally portion the wine and bread to all members who attend.

The word alone is our teacher and Christ is our redeemer, but as individuals we are each to be hearers of the word and doers of what God calls us to do, usually it has something to do with "not doing" more than "do this" and any works is by means of Gods charity and loving one another.. It has absolutely nothing to do with being perfect for others to see and admire, God could care less about competition or self expression of righteousness.. We are a team, a body, with no other job than to Love with the new heart God gives you.. Charity defines the Christian but it cannot be measured individually by anyone but God, to say you don't have sin makes you a liar and to say that you repent and therefore will never sin again makes you a liar..
Christian churches today are filled with Love and Charity and even if you have no denomination you are still in His Church as long as you keep on believing, that's what it means to endure to the end... btw many early Christians denounced Christ to escape persecution, they did not endure to the end :/

 

[hobie]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The key here is "should not perish" and yet many who say they are Christian will perish, as even the demons believe and yet they know what is coming for them.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Andrew]

The key here is "should not perish" and yet many who say they are Christian will perish, as even the demons believe and yet they know what is coming for them.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Humans aren't demons nor can they become demons, what you are suggesting is that faith alone may be demonic, if you truly mean "belief" then you know that to a Christian it means "Faith"... a faithless/unbelieving christian is no Christian, nor is a believing demon a Christian because demons know the Lord is judge, they possessed pigs and jumped off a cliff in fear of His judgment

 

[Lamb]

The key here is "should not perish" and yet many who say they are Christian will perish, as even the demons believe and yet they know what is coming for them.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Hebrew 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.




As you see, those who believe will have eternal life...the last verse shows that it's because we have an intercessor.

On Judgment Day when you stand before God, are you going to try to intercede for yourself or will you trust that Jesus is your intercessor?

ALL sin needs forgiveness on Judgment Day. Can you provide your own forgiveness? It can only come by blood and that was the sacrifice on the cross. Believe it.