Is the Pope as he claims “God on Earth”.

Albion

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Maybe you should try posting this on a forum where there are more Catholics and see what kind of response you get? i don't see many of this site that are Catholic or are experts on the Catholic faith

...and Catholics aren't going to agree to hobie's translation/interpretation anyway.
 

hobie

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...and Catholics aren't going to agree to hobie's translation/interpretation anyway.

Well, they can go to the Vatican at Rome and see if the 'saints' are of wood and stone, and then explain how they are not 'idols', and we can go from there...

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
 

Albion

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Well, they can go to Rome and see if the 'saints' are of wood and stone, and then explain how they are not 'idols', and we can go from there...

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Of course a statue is not necessarily an idol. For anything to be an idol, it must be used as an idol.

But this isn't the topic of your thread here, is it?
 

hobie

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But the real issue that is being set aside is why the believers/churches of the Reformation still are following the changes it claims it had the authority to make, that is at the heart of the matter. If you look in scripture, you see the apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the apostasy which would come into the church. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in.

Little by little, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of believers, paganism and idol worship came into the church. The customs of heathenism began to find their way into the early Christian church and compromise and conformity to paganism was held back for a time by the fierce persecutions by the Roman Emperors. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted and entered the courts and palaces of the Emperors and Kings, the true church laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ for the pomp and pride of priests and pagan leaders and in place of the truth from God, it substituted human theories, rites and traditions.

It started slowly, a change here a compromise there, but the then with acceptance the floodgates to apostasy were fully opened by Emperor Constantine, who tried to politically not to leave out or alienate those who practiced paganism after he claim to convert to Christianity. He declared the bishop of Rome as the enforcer of truth and forced the merger of paganism into the church, and the heathen religion now cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished by the church, became the conqueror. Pagan doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy who clearly we see opposing and exalting himself above God. So we see the changes, against what God has set, made by the "man of sin" and we just go along with it?
 

Albion

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But the real issue that is being set aside is why the believers/churches of the Reformation still are following the changes it claims it had the authority to make, that is at the heart of the matter. If you look in scripture, you see the apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the apostasy which would come into the church. ve God. So we see the changes, against what God has set, made by the "man of sin" and we just go along with it?
Yes--The standard SDA claim about itself.

The "real issue" here is supposed to be one Pope's alleged claim to being "God on Earth."
 

Josiah

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So what happened to the other Christian centers and leadership.......


Most denominations have some internal authority. It may be conventions or councils or some board, but there's some body or person who determines "this is permitted, this is not" in that denomination. The reality that the RCC also has this has never prevented any other denomination to have their own form or authority.


It would seem you don't like the approach taken by the RCC. Well, you aren't a member of the RCC so ..... And we don't have any active Catholics to represent their approach.
 

hobie

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Most denominations have some internal authority. It may be conventions or councils or some board, but there's some body or person who determines "this is permitted, this is not" in that denomination. The reality that the RCC also has this has never prevented any other denomination to have their own form or authority.


It would seem you don't like the approach taken by the RCC. Well, you aren't a member of the RCC so ..... And we don't have any active Catholics to represent their approach.

Let me disagree with your statement "never prevented any other denomination to have their own form or authority." You are very mistaken, look up the history of the Waldenseans, the St Thomas Christians, even Martin Luther, or just look up the Inquistition, it was destruction and persecution not just of the leaders, but the group of believers themselves...
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
Most denominations have some internal authority. It may be conventions or councils or some board, but there's some body or person who determines "this is permitted, this is not" in that denomination. The reality that the RCC
also has this has never prevented any other denomination to have their own form or authority.


It would seem you don't like the approach taken by the RCC . Well, you aren't a member of the RCC so ..... And we don't have any active Catholics to represent their approach.

Let me disagree with your statement "never prevented any other denomination to have their own form or authority." You are very mistaken, look up the history of the Waldenseans, the St Thomas Christians, even Martin Luther, or just look up the Inquistition, it was destruction and persecution not just of the leaders, but the group of believers themselves...


Wrong. None of those situation eliminated any denomination's ability to have some form of internal authority.... Yes, Luther was excommunicated but all 300+ Lutheran denominations have some form of internal authority; that excommunication did not prevent that.


It would seem you don't like the RCC's system....and since you aren't a member of the RCC, I can't image why you care.


And the RCC does not say that the Pope is "GOD ON EARTH." Take a look at that denomination's Catechism; the ONLY ONE who has that designation in the RCC is Jesus.




.
 

tango

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But the real issue that is being set aside is why the believers/churches of the Reformation still are following the changes it claims it had the authority to make, that is at the heart of the matter. If you look in scripture, you see the apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the apostasy which would come into the church. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in.

Little by little, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of believers, paganism and idol worship came into the church. The customs of heathenism began to find their way into the early Christian church and compromise and conformity to paganism was held back for a time by the fierce persecutions by the Roman Emperors. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted and entered the courts and palaces of the Emperors and Kings, the true church laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ for the pomp and pride of priests and pagan leaders and in place of the truth from God, it substituted human theories, rites and traditions.

You really seem to be struggling to make much of a coherent point here. You started out asking if the Pope was God, then got sidetracked into why we worship collectively on Sunday rather than Saturday (without explaining why it's important, given we're under the new covenant now and not the endless rules of Leviticus etc), and now you're talking in generic terms in ways that's little more than having a moan about traditions.

Scripture tells us clearly that we must do some things (e.g. love God). It tells us clearly that we must not do some things (e.g. commit adultery). In between there are endless matters on which Scripture is silent and, absent a personal leading from God, we can do more or less what we want where those are concerned. So if we want to drink a beer, or eat a burger with a side of curly fries, or wear blue pants with a green shirt on Thursday, we are free to use our own discretion.

For what it's worth I have a friend who attends church on a Thursday. He's an older guy, and a bunch of the old folks get together for their own service mid week. A lot of them struggle with getting to church on the Sunday, so they have their own service that includes a shuttle bus that gathers up everybody who can't get there under their own steam. Then they have lunch together, and everybody is dropped off at home. Maybe you should write to them and tell them how they are doing it all wrong because they should be gathering on a Sunday. Or maybe you could just leave them to it because they are praising God in their own way.

It started slowly, a change here a compromise there, but the then with acceptance the floodgates to apostasy were fully opened by Emperor Constantine, who tried to politically not to leave out or alienate those who practiced paganism after he claim to convert to Christianity. He declared the bishop of Rome as the enforcer of truth and forced the merger of paganism into the church, and the heathen religion now cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished by the church, became the conqueror. Pagan doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy who clearly we see opposing and exalting himself above God. So we see the changes, against what God has set, made by the "man of sin" and we just go along with it?

Ah, so this is really about whether the Pope is the antichrist? You wouldn't be the first to make that claim, and you probably won't be the last.
 

Albion

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Understanding Seventh-day Adventism is really rather easy.

Aside from the specific origins of the denomination--a teenage female "prophet" whose regurgitations of some history books she'd read somewhere--it is all about this:

Everything that is wrong, and everything they oppose, is the fault of the Roman Catholic Church that perverted the original faith with pagan beliefs and practices. And what any other church does (but not SDA) is a hold-over from Roman Catholicism and, therefore, similarly wrong.

That's essentially it.
 

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Wrong. None of those situation eliminated any denomination's ability to have some form of internal authority.... Yes, Luther was excommunicated but all 300+ Lutheran denominations have some form of internal authority; that excommunication did not prevent that.


It would seem you don't like the RCC's system....and since you aren't a member of the RCC, I can't image why you care.


And the RCC does not say that the Pope is "GOD ON EARTH." Take a look at that denomination's Catechism; the ONLY ONE who has that designation in the RCC is Jesus.




.

Well, I think the Waldensians would like to have a say in that, but they were wiped out, and the Huguenots in France, and Jews in Spain, etc........and Martin Luther had to disguise himself and be on the run and get kidnapped, and England had a whole armada sent against it. I guess they were just minor inconvenience's.....


History shows the numerous repressions and persecutions carried out by the Roman Catholic Church to force its doctrines on others, here are from some of my notes...

The St. Thomas Christians of India were forced to accept the Roman Catholic doctrines against their will and rebelled.

They were Sabbath-keepers, as were those who broke off communion with Rome after the Council of Chalcedon, namely the Abyssinian, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians and the Kurds, who kept the food laws and denied confession and purgatory (Schaff-Herzog The New Encyclopædia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians and Nestorianer above).


The Abyssinian Church remained Sabbath-keeping and in Ethiopia the Jesuits tried to get the Abyssinians to accept Roman Catholicism. The Abyssinian legate at the court of Lisbon denied they kept Sabbath in imitation of the Jews, but rather in obedience to Christ and the Apostles (Geddes Church History of Ethiopia, pp. 87-88). The Jesuits influenced king Zadenghel to propose to submit to the Papacy in 1604, and prohibiting Sabbath worship under severe penalty (Geddes, ibid., p. 311 and also Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Ch. 47).

The Abyssinian Church remained Sabbath-keeping and in Ethiopia the Jesuits tried to get the Abyssinians to accept Roman Catholicism. The Abyssinian legate at the court of Lisbon denied they kept Sabbath in imitation of the Jews, but rather in obedience to Christ and the Apostles (Geddes Church History of Ethiopia, pp. 87-88). The Jesuits influenced king Zadenghel to propose to submit to the Papacy in 1604, and prohibiting Sabbath worship under severe penalty (Geddes, ibid., p. 311 and also Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Ch. 47).

The Waldensians or Waldenses

Lentolo is the author of the earliest history of the Waldensians and the chief authority for that of the persecution of his own times. This history was virtually unknown till in 1897 Comba called attention to a copy of it in the Berne Library (W. F. Adeney, art. Waldenses, ERE, Vol 12, p. 669).

Benedict in his history of the Baptists says of the Waldenses: 'We have already observed from Claudius Seyessel, the popish archbishop, that one Leo was charged with originating the Waldensian heresy in the valleys, in the days of Constantine the Great. When those severe measures were emanated from the Emperor Honorius against rebaptizers [Anabaptists], they left the seat of opulence and power, and sought retreats in the country, and in the valleys of Piedmont (Italy) which last place in particular, became their retreat against imperial oppression.'

Persecution in Bohemia and Southern Italy nearly exterminated the Churches of the Waldensians in those parts, leaving only Piedmont and the Italian valleys of the Cottian Alps, termed the Vaudois country, as the only important habitat (Adeney, p. 669) although many were scattered among the Swiss and German Protestants.

Here is something on the Inquistion..."There was a gallows permanently in the square of every town and city and village. Railways, meetings of more than three people, and all newspapers were forbidden. All books were censored. A special tribunal sat permanently in each place to try, condemn and execute the accused. All trials were conducted in Latin. Ninety-nine percent of the accused did not understand the accusations against them. Every pope tore up the stream of petitions that came constantly asking for justice, for the franchise, for reform of the police and the prison system (see Malachi Martin The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church, Secker and Warburg, London, 1981, p. 254).
 
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Albion

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Well, I think the Waldensians would like to have a say in that, but they were wiped out,
Well then, why not drop them a line and ask? After an independent existence spanning the better part of a millennium, the Waldensians in 1975 merged with the Methodist church in Italy. That, of course, says nothing about their congregations in North and South America.
 

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Well then, why not drop them a line and ask? After an independent existence spanning the better part of a millennium, the Waldensians in 1975 merged with the Methodist church in Italy. That, of course, says nothing about their congregations in North and South America.

Scattered few congregations that remained after the persecution....
 

tango

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So do you believe we are part way through the millennial reign, or that the mysterious beast who persecuted God's people decided to take a few hundred years off and let us buy and sell after all? The current pope even talks above loving others. Maybe it's just a decoy.
 

Josiah

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Well, I think the Waldensians would like to have a say in that, but they were wiped out, and the Huguenots in France, and Jews in Spain, etc........and Martin Luther had to disguise himself and be on the run and get kidnapped, and England had a whole armada sent against it. I guess they were just minor inconvenience's.....


NONE of that REMOTELY indicates that no denomination can have some system of authority for itself.

Yes, for a while, Luther disguised himself. But every one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations has some system of authority for itself.

You obviously don't like the one the RC Denomination has.... and since you aren't a member of that denomination, I can't for the life of me image why you care.

And NO, the Pope does not claim to be God. On Earth or the Mars or anywhere.





.








.
 
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Andrew

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Some help for hobie.. I've watched this fascinating lecture many times over the past 5 years.. By a SDA I believe


https://youtu.be/mH5KeTb_NIk
 

hobie

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NONE of that REMOTELY indicates that no denomination can have some system of authority for itself.

Yes, for a while, Luther disguised himself. But every one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations has some system of authority for itself.

You obviously don't like the one the RC Denomination has.... and since you aren't a member of that denomination, I can't for the life of me image why you care.

And NO, the Pope does not claim to be God. On Earth or the Mars or anywhere.





.








.


https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13praec.htm

If you check the around the fifth paragraph down it says "But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"

And I am coming across many others.....

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.”

Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is “very God and very man.” Decretales Domini Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205
 
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