Communion of the Body of Christ

[Particular]

Which church would that be? The Evangelical Free church? The Presbyterian church? The Non-denominational church? The Lutheran church? I've held and defended both positions as a Christian. The symbolic position and the real presence position. So, I actually am very well versed on this topic, so your little brush off above, doesn't stand up to reality.

What church is it presently? You seem to be a wanderer.

 

[Particular]

So Jesus can be present anywhere except where He says He is because it just doesn't make sense to you?

He is present everywhere. He is not magically turning bread into human flesh or wine into human blood in order to convey a special dispensation of grace upon a person.
The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Lutheran Church are turning a simple and beautiful remembrance into a magical means of dispensing an extra grace that God actually dispensed when he chose to redeem us of our sins.
We remember. We don't make it a magic show.

 

[Particular]

If Jesus is really present always, why can't His body and blood be present in His supper that He instituted?

Why would Jesus want you to be a cannibal?

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

What church is it presently? You seem to be a wanderer.

You tell me, since you constantly say I'm leaning on what my church taught me. Out of all those churches, which one fits with what I believe?

 

[Particular]

You tell me, since you constantly say I'm leaning on what my church taught me. Out of all those churches, which one fits with what I believe?

You tell me since you seem to be tossed by the waves of emotion.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Why would Jesus want you to be a cannibal?

It's not cannibalism. That's just what your Baptist church has taught you. Read what Jesus says in John 6 about those who eat His flesh and drink His blood.

48I am the bread of life.*49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.*50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die.*51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53So Jesus said to them,*“Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you.*54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.*55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.
56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.*57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me.*58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

Many Disciples Turn Back
(Matthew 8:18-22;*Luke 9:57-62;*Luke 14:25-33)
59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.*60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them,*“Does this offend you?*62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.*64However, there are some of you who do not believe.”*(For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)
65Then Jesus said,*“This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

You tell me since you seem to be tossed by the waves of emotion.

Yeah, I've only been a member of one of those churches for 13 years. But it's obvious you can't bother to read my profile and be informed. Such a simple task.

 

[Particular]

It's not cannibalism. That's just what your Baptist church has taught you. Read what Jesus says in John 6 about those who eat His flesh and drink His blood.

48I am the bread of life.*49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.*50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die.*51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53So Jesus said to them,*“Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you.*54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.*55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.
56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.*57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me.*58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

Many Disciples Turn Back
(Matthew 8:18-22;*Luke 9:57-62;*Luke 14:25-33)
59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.*60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them,*“Does this offend you?*62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.*64However, there are some of you who do not believe.”*(For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)
65Then Jesus said,*“This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

Sure it's cannibalism. You eat human flesh and drink human blood. You are, by all definition, a cannibal.
Since God had strict regulations on drinking blood, we can be sure God didn't change his mind.

 

[Particular]

Yeah, I've only been a member of one of those churches for 13 years. But it's obvious you can't bother to read my profile and be informed. Such a simple task.

Yet, you refuse to share your church affiliation. Your choice to not disclose.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Sure it's cannibalism. You eat human flesh and drink human blood. You are, by all definition, a cannibal.
Since God had strict regulations on drinking blood, we can be sure God didn't change his mind.

Then explain Jesus's words in John 6 where He specifically says he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Yet, you refuse to share your church affiliation. Your choice to not disclose.

If you can't figure it out from my posts and won't click on my profile... that's not my problem. My religious affiliation wasn't the point of that post. The point was to show you that I've been on both sides of this issue. But of course, the personal information is what you pick up on, and want to pester me about. That says it all, really.

 

[Josiah]

Yet, you refuse to share your church affiliation. Your choice to not disclose.

Actually, you don't disclose YOURS.

Zecryphon_nomdiv has a Lutheran icon on EVERY POST. When someone chooses to identify their faith community, the appropriate icon is posted. His is the Lutheran Rose. You'll find in on every one of his over 500 posts, right next to his marital status (which he also chose to reveal but you have not). If you don't recognize the icon, all you needed to do is put your curser over it and bingo, it tells you.




.

 

[Josiah]

Why would Jesus want you to be a cannibal?

Yes, you PARROT the accusation of PAGAN HATERS of Christ.... like them, revealing your complete ignorance of the subject. And when those PAGAN, UNBELIEVING, HATERS of Christ accused Christians of that, did believing Christians say, "Well, OBVIOUSLY Jesus didn't mean what He said and Paul shouldn't have penned what He did, it's just a METAPHOR and the only thing present is Welch's Grape Juice and little cut up little pieces of tasteless bread (and that's why it can cause sickness and death and divine judgement if not received correctly)? Nope. They AFFIRMED Real Presence and simply noted that just because you RECEIVE something doesn't mean you CONSUME it.


AGAIN, yet again, still one more time, now often is it possible for you to ignore this, but again.... NO CHRISTIAN on the planet for 2000 years has EVER claimed or believed that they consume Jesus. Nor is this thread about consuming Jesus. It is about whether Jesus and Paul were correct in saying IS.... BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD....WINE....FORGIVENESS or whether Zwingli (who never studied physics in his life) was correct in that what Jesus and Paul said here violates physics and thus cannot be true, and thus Zwingli appointed Zwingli to correct Jesus and Paul.




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[Particular]

Then explain Jesus's words in John 6 where He specifically says he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood will live.

Well, if you are taking Jesus literally, then you must do so for the entire passage.
Note that the dialogue is after he's fed to 5000 with a few loaves of bread and some fish.

Since in the entire passage Jesus is using a metaphor to connect to the manna provided for the chosen people during the wandering in the wilderness, it is important that we understand Jesus is not referring to his actual flesh being eaten.
However, if you want to be extremely literal, you must do so with the entire passage, not just a couple verses.

On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the breadthe fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
~ John 6:22-59

 

[Particular]

Actually, you don't disclose YOURS.

Zecryphon_nomdiv has a Lutheran icon on EVERY POST. When someone chooses to identify their faith community, the appropriate icon is posted. His is the Lutheran Rose. You'll find in on every one of his over 500 posts, right next to his marital status (which he also chose to reveal but you have not). If you don't recognize the icon, all you needed to do is put your curser over it and bingo, it tells you.




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North American Baptist

 

[Particular]

Yes, you PARROT the accusation of PAGAN HATERS of Christ.... like them, revealing your complete ignorance of the subject. And when those PAGAN, UNBELIEVING, HATERS of Christ accused Christians of that, did believing Christians say, "Well, OBVIOUSLY Jesus didn't mean what He said and Paul shouldn't have penned what He did, it's just a METAPHOR and the only thing present is Welch's Grape Juice and little cut up little pieces of tasteless bread (and that's why it can cause sickness and death and divine judgement if not received correctly)? Nope. They AFFIRMED Real Presence and simply noted that just because you RECEIVE something doesn't mean you CONSUME it.


AGAIN, yet again, still one more time, now often is it possible for you to ignore this, but again.... NO CHRISTIAN on the planet for 2000 years has EVER claimed or believed that they consume Jesus. Nor is this thread about consuming Jesus. It is about whether Jesus and Paul were correct in saying IS.... BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD....WINE....FORGIVENESS or whether Zwingli (who never studied physics in his life) was correct in that what Jesus and Paul said here violates physics and thus cannot be true, and thus Zwingli appointed Zwingli to correct Jesus and Paul.




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You seem to struggle with what is real and what is not real if you deny the bread and wine really change into body and blood.
Perhaps really means not really, but symbolically.

 

[Josiah]

Let's very carefully look at the Eucharistic texts, noting carefully the words - what Jesus said and Paul penned, and equally what they did not. What are the words THERE and the ones NOT there?


Matthew 26:26-29

26. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27. Then he took the cup (wine), gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
29. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine (wine) from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."


First Corinthians 11:23-29

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24. and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25. In the same way, after supper he took the cup (wine), saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
29. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.


Underline each of the following words, count how often each occurs and whether each occurs after we read the word "is", after the consecration:

IS
BODY
BLOOD
BREAD
WINE/CUP/FRUIT OF THE VINE
CHANGE
BECOME
WAS
SYMBOLIZE
SEEMS
APPEARS
NOT
ACCIDENT
ARISTOTLE
ALCHEMY
TRANSUBSTANTIATION
CONSUME
DIGEST



There are three basic "takes" on this in modern Western Christianity..... Let's look at the earliest one:



REAL PRESENCE:


Real Presence IS:

1. Real Presence accepts the words of Jesus and Paul. Nothing added, nothing deleted, nothing modified. Just accepting and believing what Jesus said and Paul by inspiration penned. Nothing more, nothing less.

2. Real Presence accepts that the meaning of is is is. This means that we receive Christ's body and blood. What follows the "is" is. Really. Present. It's called "Real Presence."


Real Presence is NOT..

1. Real Presence is not a dogmatic denial of the words "bread" and "wine" AFTER the consecration as if we must take a "half real/half symbolic" interpretation of the text. It simply regards such as irrelevant. The point of Real Presence is the presence of CHRIST. It's not called, "The Denial of What Paul Wrote" because that's not what it is, it is the AFFIRMATION of what he penned and what Christ said: the body is, the blood is, CHRIST is present.


2. Real Presence is not a theory about anything or explanation regarding anything. It simply embraces what Jesus said and Paul penned. What they say is is. The HOW and the physics are left entirely alone (without comment, without theory), as "mystery."


3. Real Presence doesn't teach or deny any "change." The word "change" never appears in any Eucharistic text and thus Real Presence has nothing whatsoever to do with that. Rather, it embraces what it IS - because that does appear in the texts and seems significant. "IS" means is - it has to do be BEING, EXISTENCE, PRESENCE.


4. Unbelieving, pagan, haters of Christ tried to twist this into cannablism. But notice the word "consume" never appears in the text OR in this position; we RECEIVE Christ but not consume Him (in some physical, digestive way). But when Christians were falsely accused of this by ignorant haters of Christ, they did NOT reply "Oh, Jesus didn't mean what He said and Paul wrote wrongly, it's just Weber's White Bread and Welch's Grape Juice symbolizing some stuff." Nope. They said Real Presence.


Now, without a doubt, the faith and conviction raises some questions. But Real Presence has always regarded all this to be MYSTERY. How it happens, Why it happens - it doesn't matter. It is believed because Jesus said and Paul so penned by inspiration.



.

You seem to struggle with what is real and what is not real if you deny the bread and wine really change into body and blood.

You seem to struggle a lot with accepting what Jesus said and Paul penned.

Read the top quote here. Try READING the words there (all of them) and please do not read any words not there. Jesus said NOTHING about "change." He said "is." Again, get out your dictionary, any dictionary, even a Baptist one. Look up the word "is" QUOTE for me the definition, "CHANGED from one reality to an entirely different one." See if you can find that meaning.

Try noticing what Jesus said and Paul penned.... actually look at THE WORDS THERE (pay no attention to any word not there). Count for me the number of times you see these words: IS.... BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD.... WINE..... FORGIVENESS. Can you do that (you won't need more than the fingers on your two hands). THEN notice how many times these words appear AFTER the "is" (the Consecration): BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD.... WINE..... FORGIVENESS. Then do the same for: CHANGED, WAS, NOW, SEEMS, NOT, SYMBOL. Give it a try! NOTHING in the text says ANYTHING about ANYTHING changing or symbolizing. Jesus said IS. Paul wrote IS. What comes after the IS? Body, blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.



.

 

[Particular]

You seem to struggle a lot with accepting what Jesus said and Paul penned.

Read the top quote here. Try READING the words there (all of them) and please do not read any words not there. Jesus said NOTHING about "change." He said "is." Again, get out your dictionary, any dictionary, even a Baptist one. Look up the word "is" QUOTE for me the definition, "CHANGED from one reality to an entirely different one." See if you can find that meaning.

Try noticing what Jesus said and Paul penned.... actually look at THE WORDS THERE (pay no attention to any word not there). Count for me the number of times you see these words: IS.... BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD.... WINE..... FORGIVENESS. Can you do that (you won't need more than the fingers on your two hands). THEN notice how many times these words appear AFTER the "is" (the Consecration): BODY.... BLOOD.... BREAD.... WINE..... FORGIVENESS. Then do the same for: CHANGED, WAS, NOW, SEEMS, NOT, SYMBOL. Give it a try! NOTHING in the text says ANYTHING about ANYTHING changing or symbolizing. Jesus said IS. Paul wrote IS. What comes after the IS? Body, blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.



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I don't struggle with what has been penned in scripture.
First, eucharist is the wrong term to use for communion since it's been co-opted as a sacrament in the Roman Catholic Church. Since grace is not given out based upon partaking of communion or upon being baptized, the term sacrament is wrong and thus eucharist is a faulty term as well. In communion we remember the sacrificial atonement of Christ for the sins of the redeemed
Scripture is clear. You simply struggle with context and figurative language used by Jesus and the Apostles. Your struggle is not my struggle.

 

[Lamb]

I don't struggle with what has been penned in scripture.
First, eucharist is the wrong term to use for communion since it's been co-opted as a sacrament in the Roman Catholic Church. Since grace is not given out based upon partaking of communion or upon being baptized, the term sacrament is wrong and thus eucharist is a faulty term as well. In communion we remember the sacrificial atonement of Christ for the sins of the redeemed
Scripture is clear. You simply struggle with context and figurative language used by Jesus and the Apostles. Your struggle is not my struggle.

You should study Greek perhaps...
Take this, and divide it among yourselves … And he took bread, and when he had given thanks [εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas] he broke it and gave it to them (Luke 22:18-19).

 

[Particular]

You should study Greek perhaps...
Take this, and divide it among yourselves … And he took bread, and when he had given thanks [εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas] he broke it and gave it to them (Luke 22:18-19).

Right. All it means is thanks or thanksgiving. It has nothing to do with a sacrament where there is an alleged giving of grace because of an action by a human.
Therefore, it is an term that we should forego because it has been misapplied by the Roman Catholic Church.