Communion of the Body of Christ

[Albion]

It's your claim.

Yes, but here's the difference. I know what I am talking about.

 

[Particular]

Yes, but here's the difference. I know what I am talking about.

Do you? I'll let you think you do. In any case, your denomination is younger than mine.

 

[Lamb]

It's your claim.
I claim the Apostles teach my position.
The Anglican Church is the Church of England. It's young. You have no substantive argument. Your church is 500 years old.
On a side note, off-topic, every denomination that was once propped up by governments making them the State Church are all diminishing and getting smaller. Meanwhile God is growing Baptist churches (always promoters of separation of church and state) all around the world. Perhaps Baptists have been blessed by God because they are striving to follow the scriptural model of communion, baptism and evangelism.

Which early church Father was Baptist?

 

[Particular]

Which early church Father was Baptist?

All the Apostles baptized by immersion.
Baptist's follow the Apostles example. Paul taught us to remember Christ in communion, which Baptists do. We remember and we recognize that the Spirit of God is present as we partake of the bread and the juice. But, we realize that the bread and juice don't change their elements upon receiving them, which the Apostles also understood when they ate with Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

All the Apostles baptized by immersion.
Baptist's follow the Apostles example. Paul taught us to remember Christ in communion, which Baptists do. We remember and we recognize that the Spirit of God is present as we partake of the bread and the juice. But, we realize that the bread and juice don't change their elements upon receiving them, which the Apostles also understood when they ate with Jesus.

That's not accurate.

Which early church Fathers declared that communion was symbolic only which is what Baptists believe? If the apostles believed as you do then there should be writings from the church fathers backing up your claim. Alas, there isn't. Real presence is there though and not just in one denomination since both Catholics and the East believe in the Real Presence.

 

[Particular]

That's not accurate.

Which early church Fathers declared that communion was symbolic only which is what Baptists believe? If the apostles believed as you do then there should be writings from the church fathers backing up your claim. Alas, there isn't. Real presence is there though and not just in one denomination since both Catholics and the East believe in the Real Presence.

Lammchen, why would a Baptist go to others outside the Bible to form their theology? I choose not to be distracted by your attempt to look outside the Bible when we discuss communion. Also, since the writings are centuries after Jesus and are few in number, that leaves many opportunities for error to come in. For example, upon reading Origen's work, you should likely conclude that he wasn't actually a Christian, but held heretical views about Christ.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Which early church Father was Baptist?

John the Baptist!

 

[Josiah]

I

I find that extremely unlikely - given the confusion, amazing misrepresentations, and pagan accusations you give. You appear to have ZERO understanding of Real Presence (in spite of several explaining it well - like 20 times now) and very little understanding of the modern Catholic view of Transubstantiation, and NO understanding of the difference between them.


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You want your quasi version to be valid. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing.

1. Validity and arguing have nothing to do with anything and aren't my interest. Advancing mutual understanding is my sole and only interest here (as is the case with several others at CH). Several of us have tried to convey Real Presence to you but you never revealed that you even read our posts but proved you did not understand a word of them - nor wanted to. Instead, you turned what we posted inside out and upside down, ignoring what was said, insert all sorts of silly, absurd things no one said, then mocked your silly subsubstitutions that no one beleives. And every time you were asked a question or asked to do something, you just ignored it. Are you like this on all issues or just this one? I guess we'll find out.


2. Advancing UNDERSTANDING is my sole, only, exclusive interest. Your opinion, my opinion - I could not care less (no one here does). With you, all here have entirely failed to advance understanding (in spite of our OBVIOUS desire and effort to do so), you continue to show ZERO understanding of either Real Presence or Transubstantiation and zero interest in understanding them. You have not even offered ANY apologetic for Zwingli's view (suggesting you don't care if it's true or not and have no understanding of it, either). You parrot Zwingli's invention (without showing any understanding of it and offering no apologetic for it) and you (ODDLY) promote the accusation of pagan haters of Christ but reveal a complete lack of understanding of the subject and zero interest in understanding it. Yes, I find that frustrating but it's your "right" as you keep insisting.


3. Maybe OTHERS have benefited from what several of us have posted, those interested in understanding and conversing, those who hold that truth matters more than opinions. And maybe not. Certainly, not you. But we certainly TRIED, because we cared and and wanted to help you, but you just aren't at all interested. Only in mocking things no one has said, revealing your lack of understanding of the subject (even the view you seem to hold) and in promoting the accusations of pagan haters of Christ.





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[Lamb]

Lammchen, why would a Baptist go to others outside the Bible to form their theology? I choose not to be distracted by your attempt to look outside the Bible when we discuss communion. Also, since the writings are centuries after Jesus and are few in number, that leaves many opportunities for error to come in. For example, upon reading Origen's work, you should likely conclude that he wasn't actually a Christian, but held heretical views about Christ.

So you have no proof besides your opinion against Jesus saying This is my body...this is my blood? You see, most people can back up what they believe with hundreds of years of how things were done since the apostles time to show that that was not a new belief system....such as symbolic only for baptism and Communion. Those are newer beliefs as writings show.

 

[Particular]

So you have no proof besides your opinion against Jesus saying This is my body...this is my blood? You see, most people can back up what they believe with hundreds of years of how things were done since the apostles time to show that that was not a new belief system....such as symbolic only for baptism and Communion. Those are newer beliefs as writings show.

I have the Bible. This is what I stand upon. If you call that no proof, then you call it no proof.

 

[Lamb]

I have the Bible. This is what I stand upon. If you call that no proof, then you call it no proof.

I have the bible too and in every version it says This is my body...this is my blood. Nowhere does it say this symbolizes.

 

[Josiah]

I have the bible too and in every version it says This is my body...this is my blood. Nowhere does it say this symbolizes.

My Bible is like yours.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I have the Bible. This is what I stand upon. If you call that no proof, then you call it no proof.

Try opening the Bible and reading it, instead of standing on it. You'll probably do much better in these discussions.

 

[Particular]

I have the bible too and in every version it says This is my body...this is my blood. Nowhere does it say this symbolizes.

My Bible is like yours.

If you cannot follow the context of the last supper, I will not be able to dissuade you from a literalist interpretation that makes no common sense.

 

[Lamb]

If you cannot follow the context of the last supper, I will not be able to dissuade you from a literalist interpretation that makes no common sense.

You've just proven to the world that you use reasoning instead of what scripture says for your doctrine.

 

[Particular]

You've just proven to the world that you use reasoning instead of what scripture says for your doctrine.

You take it that way because recognizing Jesus use of metaphor in connection with the Passover meal means your church tradition is wrong. Can you handle it if your church is wrong?

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

You take it that way because recognizing Jesus use of metaphor in connection with the Passover meal means your church tradition is wrong. Can you handle it if your church is wrong?

Can you? Figurative language and metaphors are not found in the text of the Last Supper. So yours is the position that has no Biblical support, not ours.

 

[Particular]

Can you? Figurative language and metaphors are not found in the text of the Last Supper. So yours is the position that has no Biblical support, not ours.

Sure it's found in the Last Supper. You must reject the position that the last supper is the Passover Seder meal.
When you recognize the Seder, you see the amazing imagery Jesus is using.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Sure it's found in the Last Supper. You must reject the position that the last supper is the Passover Seder meal.
When you recognize the Seder, you see the amazing imagery Jesus is using.

The only things I reject are all the things you say. I, unlike you, am willing to learn. So show me this great imagery in the Last Supper. Every majestic "metaphor" and beautiful "symbol". Since they're so obvious, this should be no problem for you to do.

 

[Particular]

The only things I reject are all the things you say. I, unlike you, am willing to learn. So show me this great imagery in the Last Supper. Every majestic "metaphor" and beautiful "symbol". Since they're so obvious, this should be no problem for you to do.

https://www.jewishvoice.org/read/article/did-yeshua-eat-seder-meal

Passover – Pesach in Hebrew – has always been seen by Jewish people as the ultimate act of God’s redemption and an affirmation of their status as His chosen people. That’s why, throughout the Hebrew Bible, God’s people are frequently reminded of the events surrounding Passover. Of how God “. . . brought you up from the land of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of bondage . . .” (Micah 6:4).

Yeshua celebrated the traditional Passover with His disciples in the upper room before His death, adding additional meaning to the Seder meal as the story of spiritual exodus out of sin and death.

This event that is now called the “Last Supper” was a true Seder meal, commanded in Scripture, according to the context of the time when Yeshua lived. I believe Yeshua chose to celebrate this with His disciples a day early, since He was to become a sacrifice the next day – not coincidentally, at the same time and same hour as all the other Passover lambs.

If we call it “the Last Supper,” this separates it from what it was – the sacred biblical event that Yeshua was celebrating as well as the sacred foreshadowing of what was to come.

Passover is the watershed event in all Jewish history. And Yeshua celebrated His Last Passover the night before becoming our sacrificial Passover Lamb. As followers of Yeshua ( Jesus), we now know that the great delivery of the Exodus was a foreshadowing of God’s ultimate plan of redemption. And this redemption was the greatest event in the history of the world.

It is essential that, within the Seder meal, we tell the great story of the Exodus:

God’s chosen people lived in great favor in Goshen for many years. A successive pharaoh, however, did not remember Joseph and the story of how he saved Egypt from a great famine. This new Pharaoh was a very cruel dictator, a kind of anti-Christ, who was afraid of the Jewish people because of their growing numbers. So he enslaved them. They remained slaves for 400-450 years, in what became one of the most bitter moments in Jewish history.

This tyrant additionally demanded that all male Jewish babies be put to death. But Moses was hidden when he was a baby, and he was miraculously rescued by Pharaoh’s daughter and raised in privilege in that very Pharaoh’s house.

Seeing Yeshua in the Passover Seder

In Exodus 12, we see that on the 10th day of the first month of the year, each man is to take a lamb for his household. It is to be a one-year-old lamb without defect. The lamb is cared for in the home until the 15th day.

This is the story of the Messiah – an incredible foreshadow of what Yeshua would do for us – detailed by God more than 1,000 years before Jesus is born.

It specifies that:

The blood must be applied to the doorpost

The lamb must be without defect and within the prime of life

Every household needs a lamb

Without the blood of the lamb, there is no relief from the Angel of Death. Blood is the only thing that saves. God told the Israelites that the Angel of Death would pass over “when I see the blood….” It wasn’t about being Jewish or Egyptian – or part of any specific group.

This is the Gospel message, my friend. And now it is the Angel of Eternal Death who sees the blood of Yeshua on the doorpost of our hearts. And that enables us to know safety, peace and rest – while havoc is all around us.

How the Passover Seder has Evolved

In Yeshua’s day, it was a very simple celebration. The traditional meal included only three foods and four cups of wine. The three foods were:

Matzah – unleavened bread, baked without yeast because they left in haste

Bitter Herbs – so they would never forget that they were slaves in Egypt

Roasted Lamb – because roasting represents judgment. They were to eat all of it and leave nothing until morning

On today’s Seder Plate, the Matzah is still included but is unlikely to be home baked. The Bitter Herbs are generally ground horseradish or romaine lettuce (sometimes endive). But you’ll see additional items that have been added to the Seder Plate, including:

A roasted egg – a reminder of the destroyed Temple and that sacrifices have ceased

Parsley – a symbol of new life

A mixture of apples, pears, nuts and wine – a sweet dish, but it represents the mortar and brick made by the Jewish people when they toiled for Pharaoh

A lamb shank – representing the sacrificed lamb (it appears on the Seder plate, although today, chicken is more commonly served as the meat portion of the meal)

The purpose of Passover is to retell the Exodus story – and it also tells the story of Yeshua. It is a joyous celebration. It includes the four cups of wine, each with its own meaning.

The most important is the third cup – the cup of redemption. This is the cup that Yeshua raised when he said, “This is the cup that now is my blood…” It was a foreshadow of the blood He shed a few hours later for our redemption.