Communion of the Body of Christ

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Does is mean is, Josiah?
Or do we have the ability to discern when is isn't literally is, but is actually symbolic or metaphorical?

Perhaps you want the right to be the final dictator of what is means in each situation in the Bible. You will be disappointed to know that you don't own that role.

I understand you have made up your mind about what is means in regard to communion. Please respect others who also have made up their mind that is has a symbolic meaning in regard to communion.
Also, please don't be condescending by claiming "Zwingli" as a bad person for believing is was symbolic. The context of scripture confirms the symbolic nature of is as it relates to communion.
You will, of course, disagree. I'm fine with you disagreeing on this matter.
Can you show some examples of the word "is" being used metaphorically or symbolically in Scripture?
 

Josiah

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Does is mean is, Josiah?


What it does.

Get out your dictionary.
ANY dictionary.


See if you can find a definition of "is" of "changed from one reality to an entirely different one via the precise physics mechanism of an alchemic transubstantiation leaving behind an unknowable mixture of reality and Aristotelian accidents" (What the RCC dogmatically insists the word "is" means)
OR
"not" (what Zwingli and most modern American "Evangelicals" dogmatically insist the word means.)
Look up the word in your dictionary, because you seem to be having a really hard time with the word (reminds me of Bill Clinton).


What follows "is" in the texts? Body, Blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.
What is mentioned AFTER the "is?" Body, blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.
Therefore, what "is?" Body, blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.
Ain't rocket science.
No one had the difficulty you are having for over 1500 years.
No one in my First Communion Class (all Second Graders) had the problem you do on understanding this.
They ain't hard words to understand: Body, blood, bread, wine, forgiveness.
All are pretty simple words, easy to understand.
No explanation or hermeneutics or "nuance" needed.
The "IS" refers to what IS ..... really...... present......
It's called "Real Presence."


Simple.
Except for those who insist that what Jesus and Paul said can't be true and so appoint self to correct them.



Please respect others who also have made up their mind that is has a symbolic meaning in regard to communion.


Not yet has anyone (including you or I) asked anyone to agree with them on anything. Everyone has the "right" to hold what they choose to hold, even if it's wrong. No one in this thread has challenged that. There is no disrespect that I can see, anywhere in this thread. But realize, not everyone here is an extreme relativist who hold that truth is a phantom and ALL there is is opinion. Most here hold that truth exists and that it matters. Opinions (while respected and welcomed) don't necessarily equal truth, some here hold.


But IMO, if you are going to join with a small minority (existing for less than 500 years) that REJECTS the universal, historic view - you need something more than Zwingli's "what Jesus said can't be true so it must be metaphor." What I see in the Zwinglian repudiation is a whole dogma based ENTIRELY on words completely missing in any eucharistic text... while ignoring EVERY actual word in the text except two: bread and wine. And the whole "This can't be true so it's not; I appoint me to correct Jesus" seems to me to be a bad way to do theology. Anyone may take that approach if they so choose, but I think it's a bad approach (doesn't make THEM bad, just the approach; no one in this thread has called ANYONE bad.).


You have been given AMBLE opportunity to show why "is" means "not" and why most of what follows "is" isn't. I think you have practically been BEGGED to do that, but you have not. Others have.... most here are WELL aware of the whole Zwinglian argument of "it cannot be true so it's not, I'll appoint me to tell you what Jesus SHOULD have said so that it can be true". We've heard it MANY times. They end up gutting the whole thing, of all the words (except bread and wine) and then can't tell you why it's SO important, why participating wrong brings judgement, etc..... nor why not one Christian in over 1500 years ever had such an idea. But you have been given LOTS of opportunity to present your case, evidence that the only words in any eucharistic text that mean what they mean is "bread" and "wine." Now only saying, "I'm entitled to my OPINION" (a point no one has ever challenge) well..... it's entirely unrelated to your opinion being true .




.
 

Particular

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Is either means is, for all uses, or is becomes interpreted based upon context and language used.

Christ is not the literal head while we make up literal body parts. We know Paul was using a metaphor.
So, the bread and the wine are not literally the flesh and blood of Jesus. We know this because Jesus was using figurative language.
 

Albion

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Is either means is, for all uses, or is becomes interpreted based upon context and language used.
All that's being said here is that you prefer to interpret the wording in the way that suits you best...and you prefer also to switch back and forth between the possible interpretations, as we have seen in this thread.

I am not going to deny you that right, even if the Christian churches have, with few exceptions, interpreted it one way from the first century until the twenty-first.

Is there anything more to be said???
 

Particular

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All that's being said here is that you prefer to interpret the wording in the way that suits you best...and you prefer also to switch back and forth between the possible interpretations, as we have seen in this thread.

I am not going to deny you that right, even if the Christian churches have, with few exceptions, interpreted it one way from the first century until the twenty-first.

Is there anything more to be said???
State run churches have interpreted it the way you do because they teach a false teaching about sacraments. They teach that the sacraments cause God to give grace to the person performing the sacrament. It is a works based theology that ignores the biblical truth that God chooses to extend grace to an individual, not by their meritorious works, but solely by God's good pleasure, regardless of works (which by the way, are never good).
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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State run churches have interpreted it the way you do because they teach a false teaching about sacraments. They teach that the sacraments cause God to give grace to the person performing the sacrament. It is a works based theology that ignores the biblical truth that God chooses to extend grace to an individual, not by their meritorious works, but solely by God's good pleasure, regardless of works (which by the way, are never good).
If true, that's a false teaching about how Sacraments work. Sacraments are one way God freely delivers forgiveness of sins to the sinner receiving it. When correctly taught and understood, it's not works-righteous at all.
 

Josiah

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State run churches have interpreted it the way you do because they teach a false teaching about sacraments. They teach that the sacraments cause God to give grace to the person performing the sacrament.


That has nothing to do with most of the words Jesus said and Paul wrote not meaning what they do.

I know of no "State run" church that teaches what you claim. And it certainly has NOTHING to do with Real Presence.




It is a works based theology that ignores the biblical truth that God chooses to extend grace to an individual, not by their meritorious works, but solely by God's good pleasure, regardless of works (which by the way, are never good).


Again, entirely off topic. This has NOTHING to do with whether Jesus and Paul meant what they said. I know of NONE on the planet who hold that anyone receiving or distributing any Sacrament does a "meritorious work". Are you attempting to change the subject?

Perhaps you need to QUOTE from some official statement (ie The Thirty Nine Articles for the Anglican Church, the Catechism of the RCC or of Lutheranism or for Reformed for those communities). QUOTE something about "meritorious works" or that our works are the reason grace is extended. Frankly, I have no clue what you could be referring to, so you need to QUOTE where these statements are made. But I suggest doing so in another thread since such is hijacking to this thread, because that has NOTHING remotely to do with Real Presence or Zwingli's "the words of the texts can't be true" repudiation of it.





.
 
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Albion

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State run churches have interpreted it the way you do because they teach a false teaching about sacraments.
and what about the non-state run churches which see it in the way the Apostles did? What's the handy-dandy excuse for dismissing them in favor of some seat-of-one's-pants interpretation?
 

Particular

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and what about the non-state run churches which see it in the way the Apostles did? What's the handy-dandy excuse for dismissing them in favor of some seat-of-one's-pants interpretation?
The Apostles didn't see it the way you see it. Though you will no doubt make more unsubstantiated claims about the Apostles from church stories you have been taught.
 

Josiah

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The Apostles didn't see it the way you see it.


Please quote any of the Apostles stating that Jesus and Paul didn't mean what they said about Communion but only meant some metaphor.

And if so, why did not one Christian ever see the quote from one or more of the Apostles stating that? Indeed, why didn't one Christian before 1500 view it as a metaphor at all when one or more of the Apostles said it was that?
 

Particular

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Please quote any of the Apostles stating that Jesus and Paul didn't mean what they said about Communion but only meant some metaphor.

And if so, why did not one Christian ever see the quote from one or more of the Apostles stating that? Indeed, why didn't one Christian before 1500 view it as a metaphor at all when one or more of the Apostles said it was that?
Please quote Jesus or the Apostles saying "is means is "
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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What else could "is" mean? In your opinion which one of Jesus' apostles share your opinion or view? Names and proof please.
 

Particular

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What else could "is" mean? In your opinion which one of Jesus' apostles share your opinion or view? Names and proof please.
Your first question has already been answered in this thread.
Your second question is answered as: All of them.
Proof: The Apostles were not cannibals.
 

Arsenios

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Is either means is, for all uses, or is becomes interpreted
based upon context and language used.

Where does the Bible say this?

Christ is not the literal head while we make up literal body parts.

Christ is the Head - We are members of His Body...

We know Paul was using a metaphor.

Where does the Bible say THAT??

So, the bread and the wine are not literally the flesh and blood of Jesus.

Tell it to Jesus...

I believe Him and not you...

We know this because Jesus was using figurative language.

Where does the Bible say He was using figurative language...??


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Please quote Jesus or the Apostles saying "is means is "

You are right - "IS" means "NOT IS"...

What could I have been thinking??

Now I can read the Bible with YOUR clarity!!

A. :)
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Your first question has already been answered in this thread.
Your second question is answered as: All of them.
Proof: The Apostles were not cannibals.
That's an unsupported assertion. I asked for proof and names and you have neither in your response. Here's a question for you, if the apostles shared your view that they would be cannibals if they ate and drank what Jesus offered to them, then why did every single apostle at the table eat and drink what Jesus told them to eat and drink? Why did not one single apostle object? Or do you believe that while under divine inspiration from the Holy Spirit to write the Scriptures, their objections were omitted?

"26*While they were eating, Jesus took*some*bread, and*after a blessing, He broke*it*and gave*it*to the disciples, and said,*“Take, eat; this is My body.”*27*And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave*it*to them, saying,*“Drink from it, all of you;*28*for*this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for*many for forgiveness of sins.

-Matthew 26:26-28 (New American Standard Bible)
 

Particular

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If true, that's a false teaching about how Sacraments work. Sacraments are one way God freely delivers forgiveness of sins to the sinner receiving it. When correctly taught and understood, it's not works-righteous at all.
Picking apples may be the place or activity in which God graciously saves a person. Fighting to keep from drowning in a storm may be a place or activity in which God graciously saves a person. On the other hand, it may not be in either of those activities.
If a person receives communion, but isn't saved, that person will receive judgment, not grace. If a person is baptized, but not saved, that person will receive judgment, not grace. In both cases they are blaspheming the King by remaining rebels while posing as saints.
 

Particular

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Where does the Bible say this?



Christ is the Head - We are members of His Body...



Where does the Bible say THAT??



Tell it to Jesus...

I believe Him and not you...



Where does the Bible say He was using figurative language...??


Arsenios
Be honest please. You believe your church. You don't believe Jesus is literally a giant head and everyone in the church is literally a body part.
You believe your church. You don't literally believe you are consuming a human piece of meat and human blood. Is doesn't really mean is.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Picking apples may be the place or activity in which God graciously saves a person. Fighting to keep from drowning in a storm may be a place or activity in which God graciously saves a person. On the other hand, it may not be in either of those activities.
If a person receives communion, but isn't saved, that person will receive judgment, not grace. If a person is baptized, but not saved, that person will receive judgment, not grace. In both cases they are blaspheming the King by remaining rebels while posing as saints.
God delivers forgiveness of sins and the gift of faith where He has promised to deliver forgiveness of sins and the gift of faith and it's not when one is picking apples or in trouble at sea. It is through His Word and Sacraments of Holy Baptism and The Lord's Supper. He comes to us through physical means and we who have faith and trust in what He says, receive these gifts in faith. We do not change what He has said to make ourselves feel better about what He is giving us.
 

Particular

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God delivers forgiveness of sins and the gift of faith where He has promised to deliver forgiveness of sins and the gift of faith and it's not when one is picking apples or in trouble at sea. It is through His Word and Sacraments of Holy Baptism and The Lord's Supper. He comes to us through physical means and we who have faith and trust in what He says, receive these gifts in faith. We do not change what He has said to make ourselves feel better about what He is giving us.
Do you see the legalism and lack of grace in your statement?
 
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