Communion of the Body of Christ

[RichWh1]

"Take... Eat... This is My Body... Broken for you..."

Remember, Rich - He did this the night BEFORE His Body had been broken on the Cross...

Christ Himself broke His Own Body for us...

We only do what He commands us to do...

Which He Himself did before He Suffered...

An ontological Prophesy of His Suffering...

And the Bread IS His Body...


Arsenios

Then what you are saying is that the apostles were cannibals eating flesh and drinking blood!
Is that what Jesus taught?? I doubt it very much!!
Eating flesh is against the Mosaic Law so why would Jesus tell His disciples to break the Law? Does not make sense.

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
1 Corinthians 11:23-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 11:23-26&version=NASB

If you notice Paul said we proclaim His death; we do not re-enact it!
When you turn bread and wine into body and blood of Jesus you are breaking the body of Jesus every time you have communion.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1 Peter 3:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 3:18&version=NASB

One time for all people. No more sacrifice for sin. Mass is a sacrifice. Unbiblical

 

[Particular]

Let's look at the words here...

Matthew 26:26-29

26. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Literal options:
The bread, made with whatever ingredients, is what Jesus body is composed of. The literal "is."

27. Then he took the cup (wine), gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Literal options:
Jesus blood is actually wine.

29. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine (wine) from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

First Corinthians 11:23-29

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24. and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Literal:
Jesus body has the composition of bread.

25. In the same way, after supper he took the cup (wine), saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

Literal:
The cup, not what is in it, is the new covenant. The wine is the physical composition of Jesus blood.

26. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Literal: Eating bread and drinking a solid cup (how exactly do you drink a solid) proclaims Jesus death until Jesus comes back.

27. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

Literal: When we eat bread and drink a solid cup and we are not worthy, we sin against the body (which is literally bread) and blood (which is literally wine) of Jesus.

28. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
29. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Literal: A medical examination should be performed by the person eating Jesus bread body and wine blood before that person eats and drinks.
If a person doesn't recognize Jesus body is bread and Jesus blood is wine then they drink judgment on themself.

That is the most literal interpretation you can take.

Does "is" mean "is?"

 

[Albion]

Literal options:
The bread, made with whatever ingredients, is what Jesus body is composed of. The literal "is."

Not when Christ himself said that the elements are something else (his body and his blood).

Does "is" mean "is?"

Can we at least agree that it doesn't mean "stands for something other than what it "is?"







.

 

[Josiah]

Literal options:
The bread, made with whatever ingredients, is what Jesus body is composed of. The literal "is."

Literal options:
Jesus blood is actually wine.


Literal:
Jesus body has the composition of bread.

Literal:
The cup, not what is in it, is the new covenant. The wine is the physical composition of Jesus blood.

Literal: Eating bread and drinking a solid cup (how exactly do you drink a solid) proclaims Jesus death until Jesus comes back.

Literal: When we eat bread and drink a solid cup and we are not worthy, we sin against the body (which is literally bread) and blood (which is literally wine) of Jesus.

Literal: A medical examination should be performed by the person eating Jesus bread body and wine blood before that person eats and drinks.
If a person doesn't recognize Jesus body is bread and Jesus blood is wine then they drink judgment on themself.

That is the most literal interpretation you can take.

Does "is" mean "is?"

Not if "literal" means the words used. Nowhere did Jesus or Paul say anything about change or about how anything isn't or that His blood is wine or medical anything or solid anything. Try reading the words. And accepting THEM. As they appear. No substitutions or changes in order. No weird additions like "medical" or "solid" or "composition." The words THERE. It's all the changes and additions and substitutions (all quite absurd, IMO) that keep you from noting the obvious (if mysterious).

Again, get out any dictionary. Try looking up the meanings for the word "is". You won't find any of the odd thoughts you are imposing here. Open the Bible and read the texts, underline every time the following words appear: composed, solid, medical, change, was, now, not, seems, transformed, ingredence.

Try the exercise I twice suggested. It might help you.

 

[Particular]

Not if "literal" means the words used. Nowhere did Jesus or Paul say anything about change or about how anything isn't or that His blood is wine or medical anything or solid anything. Try reading the words. And accepting THEM. As they appear. No substitutions or changes in order. No weird additions like "medical" or "solid" or "composition." The words THERE. It's all the changes and additions and substitutions (all quite absurd, IMO) that keep you from noting the obvious (if mysterious).

Again, get out any dictionary. Try looking up the meanings for the word "is". You won't find any of the odd thoughts you are imposing here. Open the Bible and read the texts, underline every time the following words appear: composed, solid, medical, change, was, now, not, seems, transformed, ingredence.

Try the exercise I twice suggested. It might help you.

Is means is.
I shared the literal meaning of the passages when is means is.
Our discussion is circular now that you are attempting to redefine what is is.

 

[Josiah]

Is means is.

Correct. REAL, PRESENT.

I shared the literal meaning of the passages when is means is.

No. You ignored the words in the texts and inserted all kinds of words and thoughts entirely absent and reversed much of it. You inserted all kinds of invisible words such as "medical" and "solid" just to name 2. And you reverses it so that Jesus says that bread is His body - which of course HE never said.

I'm suggesting that is means is (BEING, PRESENT, REAL, EXISTS) and all that follows the is, is: Body, Blood, bread, wine. It's not rocket science. No hermanuetics needed. No "nuance" whatsoever. When I took First Communion in the second grade, I understood this. Ain't difficult.

I'm just not buying that is means symbolizes or strands for or represents or not or changed or converted or transformed via an alchemic transubstantiation.
I'm just not buying that bread means bread HALF the time but means something else (unstated) half of the time.
I'm just not buying that wine/cup/fruit of the vine (they are are the same thing, obviously means that SOMETIMES but not usually.
I'm just not buying that Jesus SHOULD have said things such as "changed" "converted" "transformed" "no longer" "was" "now" "seems like" "symbol" but was sloppy.



.

 

[Arsenios]

If we take the word of God literally, regarding communion,
either the bread becomes human flesh
or
Jesus body was bread, not human flesh.
And the wine becomes human blood
or Jesus blood was wine.

Scripture says neither...

That is the literal interpretation of "is."

That is YOUR interpretation...

It needs no interpretation...

It is a Mystery, as is Christ within you...

And "We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a purified Conscience..."

Anything else cannot be a literal interpretation of the passages on communion.

Not in your young mind...

Think "Mystery" and you may get a little closer...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Then what you are saying is that the apostles were cannibals eating flesh and drinking blood!

That is what unbelievers thought in the first years of this Faith...

Why are you joining them?

The Bread so Consecrated by God is fleshless, and is the Body of Christ...

The Wine so Consecrated by God is His Blood, and is bloodless...

You cannot enquire into this as "Western so-called Theologians" have been doing for centuries...

It is a Mystery received by Faith...

Without Faith you will not receive it...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Does "is" mean "is?"

The Bread so consecrated IS His Body...
The Wine so consecrated IS His Blood...

He did not have bread for his Flesh...
He did not have wine for his Blood...

You cannot reduce this Mystery to fallen human mental tinker-toys...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Can we at least agree that it doesn't mean "stands for something other than what it "is?"
.

Nice try, but this is a children's spat...

btw - Your lowered period/dot is showing...


Arsenios

 

[Particular]

Correct. REAL, PRESENT.



No. You ignored the words in the texts and inserted all kinds of words and thoughts entirely absent and reversed much of it. You inserted all kinds of invisible words such as "medical" and "solid" just to name 2. And you reverses it so that Jesus says that bread is His body - which of course HE never said.

I'm suggesting that is means is (BEING, PRESENT, REAL, EXISTS) and all that follows the is, is: Body, Blood, bread, wine. It's not rocket science. No hermanuetics needed. No "nuance" whatsoever. When I took First Communion in the second grade, I understood this. Ain't difficult.

I'm just not buying that is means symbolizes or strands for or represents or not or changed or converted or transformed via an alchemic transubstantiation.
I'm just not buying that bread means bread HALF the time but means something else (unstated) half of the time.
I'm just not buying that wine/cup/fruit of the vine (they are are the same thing, obviously means that SOMETIMES but not usually.
I'm just not buying that Jesus SHOULD have said things such as "changed" "converted" "transformed" "no longer" "was" "now" "seems like" "symbol" but was sloppy.



.

I didn't ignore the words at all. I went verse by verse through the words, showing what is is.

 

[Particular]

Correct. REAL, PRESENT.



No. You ignored the words in the texts and inserted all kinds of words and thoughts entirely absent and reversed much of it. You inserted all kinds of invisible words such as "medical" and "solid" just to name 2. And you reverses it so that Jesus says that bread is His body - which of course HE never said.

I'm suggesting that is means is (BEING, PRESENT, REAL, EXISTS) and all that follows the is, is: Body, Blood, bread, wine. It's not rocket science. No hermanuetics needed. No "nuance" whatsoever. When I took First Communion in the second grade, I understood this. Ain't difficult.

I'm just not buying that is means symbolizes or strands for or represents or not or changed or converted or transformed via an alchemic transubstantiation.
I'm just not buying that bread means bread HALF the time but means something else (unstated) half of the time.
I'm just not buying that wine/cup/fruit of the vine (they are are the same thing, obviously means that SOMETIMES but not usually.
I'm just not buying that Jesus SHOULD have said things such as "changed" "converted" "transformed" "no longer" "was" "now" "seems like" "symbol" but was sloppy.



.

You are using eisegesis, not exegisis to come to your conclusion.
Taking the verse literally, one will conclude that Jesus body was composed of bread and his veins were filled with wine. Is means is, as you have declared.

 

[Particular]

Scripture says neither...



That is YOUR interpretation...

It needs no interpretation...

It is a Mystery, as is Christ within you...

And "We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a purified Conscience..."



Not in your young mind...

Think "Mystery" and you may get a little closer...


Arsenios

I suspect that people will fall on the empty argument of "mystery" in order to not concede the argument of literal interpretation falls apart.
Because the literal approach falls apart, I hold to the symbolic interpretation of bread and wine. For me, it fits the context of the passages much better than a literal interpretation.

 

[Particular]

The Bread so consecrated IS His Body...
The Wine so consecrated IS His Blood...

He did not have bread for his Flesh...
He did not have wine for his Blood...

You cannot reduce this Mystery to fallen human mental tinker-toys...


Arsenios

That's not what the text says, however. You clearly believe your position is correct. I'm stating the text does not say what you are saying.

 

[Albion]

That's not what the text says, however. You clearly believe your position is correct. I'm stating the text does not say what you are saying.

Well, then let's settle this by looking at the text.

Show us anywhere in any Gospel or other Bible book where Jesus says either "This is my loaf of bread which is given for you" or "This symbolizes my body."

 

[Particular]

Well, then let's settle this by looking at the text.

Show us anywhere in any Gospel or other Bible book where Jesus says either "This is my loaf of bread which is given for you" or "This symbolizes my body."

I already went through the text and stayed with the literal interpretation. I showed what the literal text says. I stuck with is meaning is. Now it seems you don't want is to be is.

 

[RichWh1]

That is what unbelievers thought in the first years of this Faith...

Why are you joining them?

The Bread so Consecrated by God is fleshless, and is the Body of Christ...

The Wine so Consecrated by God is His Blood, and is bloodless...

You cannot enquire into this as "Western so-called Theologians" have been doing for centuries...

It is a Mystery received by Faith...

Without Faith you will not receive it...


Arsenios

Where in Scripture do we read that the bread and wine are consecrated by God?


I am not joining unbelievers of the 1st Century. I am trying to understand why Jesus would command His disciples to break the Law of Moses.
Can you please tell me why?

Are you now accusing me of not having faith? Your words seem to indicate that.

 

[Arsenios]

That's not what the text says, however. You clearly believe your position is correct. I'm stating the text does not say what you are saying.

Christ said "This IS My Body..." of the bread which he had Taken, Given thanks, and Broken...

I take Him at His Word...

Do you?

But here is an easy one for you:

Is John the Baptist the Prophet Elijah?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Where in Scripture do we read that the bread and wine are consecrated by God?

Mat 26:26
And as they were eating,
Jesus took bread,
and blessed it,
and brake it,
and gave it to the disciples,
and said,
Take, eat; this is my body.

I am not joining unbelievers of the 1st Century. I am trying to understand why Jesus would command His disciples to break the Law of Moses.
Can you please tell me why?

Because He is the Bread of Life...

Are you now accusing me of not having faith? Your words seem to indicate that.

It is a Mystery that can only be apprehended by the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...

The Apostolic Faith of Christ...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Mat 26:26
And as they were eating,
Jesus took bread,
and blessed it,
and brake it,
and gave it to the disciples,
and said,
Take, eat; this is my body.



Because He is the Bread of Life...



It is a Mystery that can only be apprehended by the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...

The Apostolic Faith of Christ...


Arsenios

Jesus asked His disciples to break the Law of Moses because He is the Bread of Life?
Makes no sense.