The False Doctrine of 'Once Saved, Always Saved'.

[hobie]

So, does the dead enemy of God CHOOSE (out of some 'freewlll') to give dead self spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - saving faith (Justification) and thus one has that? OR does the Holy Spirit come and give such? What you posted seems confusing, you have the Holy Spirit "drawing" but also you have the dead enemy "choosing." Which is it? You might want to read this thread: https://christianityhaven.com/showt...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31)

Yes, if the dead one "rejects" God (which is all the dead one will do, all the dead CAN do according to the Bible), then that's a bad thing (seldom do the dead do anything good) - I think we'd all agree to that. Dead "choosing" to stay dead (because the dead can't choose anything) will mean they stay dead; no dead one gives self life.



But this thread is not about how/why those who are spiritually dead come to life. It's about whether one is saved apart from faith (because they ONCE had faith but no longer).




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I am a sailor, so I like to use a sailing metaphor. You take your sailboat off the beach unto the ocean of life, and the power of the Holy Spirit is there, to fill your sails and guide you on the path to God. But some get fearful and go back to the beach and put away their sailboat or never leave the beach, stranded forever.

 

[Lamb]

I am a sailor, so I like to use a sailing metaphor. You take your sailboat off the beach unto the ocean of life, and the power of the Holy Spirit is there, to fill your sails and guide you on the path to God. But some get fearful and go back to the beach and put away their sailboat or never leave the beach, stranded forever.

So you agree that they can't fill their own sails to be on the path...that's God's doing but they can reject and turn away.

 

[Andrew]

So you agree that they can't fill their own sails to be on the path...that's God's doing but they can reject and turn away.

Turning away seems like a conversion from Christianity to Atheism, I've seen so many cases of that but personally I don't think they ever believed to begin with.. How can one taste the good fruit and fall away? Those who fall weren't really believers because of they once believed and became unbelievers and then were saved again they would be crucifying the Lord afresh, meaning that this second "saved again" was really their first and only, before they were just unbelievers and their faith was not grounded before.
I do believe in perseverance of the Saints, if we "fall away" after we truly believed you will repent just as the 7 churches in Revelation were called to repentance or the Lord will blow out their candle, it doesn't say that they will go to hell it just says to repent.
Now some disciples do walk away from the faith but if they were his sheep they wouldn't have, those goats will say "lord lord" and Jesus will separate them from his sheep because the Lord knows that they were dead in sin and slaves to sin thus were not his.. (God will not lose any of his sheep)

 

[Lamb]

Turning away seems like a conversion from Christianity to Atheism, I've seen so many cases of that but personally I don't think they ever believed to begin with.. How can one taste the good fruit and fall away? Those who fall weren't really believers because of they once believed and became unbelievers and then were saved again they would be crucifying the Lord afresh, meaning that this second "saved again" was really their first and only, before they were just unbelievers and their faith was not grounded before.
I do believe in perseverance of the Saints, if we "fall away" after we truly believed you will repent just as the 7 churches in Revelation were called to repentance or the Lord will blow out their candle, it doesn't say that they will go to hell it just says to repent.
Now some disciples do walk away from the faith but if they were his sheep they wouldn't have, those goats will say "lord lord" and Jesus will separate them from his sheep because the Lord knows that they were dead in sin and slaves to sin thus were not his.. (God will not lose any of his sheep)

Unfortunately my niece who was a strong Christian turned away and became Atheist after her years in college but also after the death of her beloved grandmother. There are people who turn away from God after experiencing hardships or grief.

 

[Andrew]

Unfortunately my niece who was a strong Christian turned away and became Atheist after her years in college but also after the death of her beloved grandmother. There are people who turn away from God after experiencing hardships or grief.

I just don't see that it's possible, she will wither repent or become a believer for the first time. One could say that Job was fallen away by reading the text.. he really gets angry at God and many can relate to Job at moments in their lives, it doesn't mean that it will last, he wanted answers and luckily for him God answered back.. In her case God will either call for her because she has not yet ( He calls to unbelievers even on their death beds) OR if she IS saved she will repent for God is her Lord and has not left her.
Also many atheist will claim they are atheist but who knows their hearts but God alone? We know by the fruits of proclaimed Christians but we aren't to judge those outside the Church, if they can't profess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord and has come in the flesh, even if they uttered before "Lord Lord", then they are either not chosen or God has not yet called them.. we however do not know the hearts of men or what God has destined for anyone in particular, thus we disciple and witness and leave the rest to God.
Peter denied Christ three times, did he first believe in the Lord after Jesus forgave him? No, he "fell" just like he fell in the water because his faith was weak and he would have drowned on his own but Christ pulled him back to him.. likewise Peter denied Christ over and over and over again in fear of physically death but his fear of spiritual death convicted him, Jesus still forgave him.. So even though a God fearing person says he or she denies Jesus Christ, it doesn't mean that they are being honest with us because we really don't know their hearts. The person might not be under threat of persecution but might feel betrayed by God (thus still believing) even denying Christ, they may not even fear God out of anger and rage, but either way we just don't know for certain but by their fruits if and when they do come around... If I met Peter when he was denying Christ I would have thought "this man was his disciple, now he denies him as his teacher" and I would say to myself "this man has left the faith, he has completely fallen away and rejected The Lord he once knew"...
Judas however exploited Christ for monetary gain, he repented of himself, feeling sorry he did it, even tried to return the money, but he SOLD Christ and if money is the root of all evil then Judas committed an unforgivable sin, knowing that Jesus was the Holy Son of God he conspired with His enemies to capture Him and crucify Him unjustly.. He thus was NOT forgiven according to scripture for he purchased his own lot.
Those who claim to be Christian (wolves in sheeps clothing) who exploit Christianity for riches are the ones we need to watch out for.. as for your niece, continue to pray and communicate with her, pray God sends his saints her way but just don't assume that she is immune to Gods grace and His Will be done.

 

[hobie]

So you agree that they can't fill their own sails to be on the path...that's God's doing but they can reject and turn away.

I dont think this issue of freewill is so complicate, man makes it so. God and the devil are fighting over each and everyone of us, and God knows the past and the future, yet still out of love tries to save us, so none perish.

 

[Josiah]

I just don't see that it's possible, she will wither repent or become a believer for the first time. One could say that Job was fallen away by reading the text.. he really gets angry at God and many can relate to Job at moments in their lives, it doesn't mean that it will last, he wanted answers and luckily for him God answered back.. In her case God will either call for her because she has not yet ( He calls to unbelievers even on their death beds) OR if she IS saved she will repent for God is her Lord and has not left her.
Also many atheist will claim they are atheist but who knows their hearts but God alone? We know by the fruits of proclaimed Christians but we aren't to judge those outside the Church, if they can't profess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord and has come in the flesh, even if they uttered before "Lord Lord", then they are either not chosen or God has not yet called them.. we however do not know the hearts of men or what God has destined for anyone in particular, thus we disciple and witness and leave the rest to God.
Peter denied Christ three times, did he first believe in the Lord after Jesus forgave him? No, he "fell" just like he fell in the water because his faith was weak and he would have drowned on his own but Christ pulled him back to him.. likewise Peter denied Christ over and over and over again in fear of physically death but his fear of spiritual death convicted him, Jesus still forgave him.. So even though a God fearing person says he or she denies Jesus Christ, it doesn't mean that they are being honest with us because we really don't know their hearts. The person might not be under threat of persecution but might feel betrayed by God (thus still believing) even denying Christ, they may not even fear God out of anger and rage, but either way we just don't know for certain but by their fruits if and when they do come around... If I met Peter when he was denying Christ I would have thought "this man was his disciple, now he denies him as his teacher" and I would say to myself "this man has left the faith, he has completely fallen away and rejected The Lord he once knew"...
Judas however exploited Christ for monetary gain, he repented of himself, feeling sorry he did it, even tried to return the money, but he SOLD Christ and if money is the root of all evil then Judas committed an unforgivable sin, knowing that Jesus was the Holy Son of God he conspired with His enemies to capture Him and crucify Him unjustly.. He thus was NOT forgiven according to scripture for he purchased his own lot.
Those who claim to be Christian (wolves in sheeps clothing) who exploit Christianity for riches are the ones we need to watch out for.. as for your niece, continue to pray and communicate with her, pray God sends his saints her way but just don't assume that she is immune to Gods grace and His Will be done.

All the Law statements in Scripture are misleading at best if they all address a situation that cannot exist. HOW it can exist is a question I'd leave alone, but THAT it can seems clear.



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."




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[hobie]

Unfortunately my niece who was a strong Christian turned away and became Atheist after her years in college but also after the death of her beloved grandmother. There are people who turn away from God after experiencing hardships or grief.

Judas is a good example to look at of those who turned away, as Christ accepted him into the inner circle of the twelve, with no judgment on his character.
Lets go over what scripture shows us.

He was learned man, a scribe who said he would follow Christ unconditionally:

Matthew 8:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Jesus gave Judas the same as the other twelve, He didn't exclude him:

Matthew 10:1 King James Version (KJV)
10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Jesus knew what Judas was bringing to the table:
John 6:70 King James Version (KJV)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

He had a flaw which opened the door for the corrupting influence of sin, as he had been holding the funds, but was not honest in it:
John 12:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas was greedy, conniving, selfish, covetous, corrupt, and trying to manipulate and yet Jesus allowed him to continue as one of the twelve, basically to the end, when Satan took control:

John 13:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

 

[Albion]

Judas was greedy, conniving, selfish, covetous, corrupt, and trying to manipulate and yet Jesus allowed him to continue as one of the twelve, basically to the end, when Satan took control:

and Jesus knew all this because Judas was intended, from all eternity, to be the one to deliver Jesus over for execution so that the divine plan of redemption could play out. It is NOT the case that Judas was one of the Elect but then lost his Faith, conveniently in time to be able to play the role that he did.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...sciple-if-he-knew-he-was-going-to-betray-him/

 

[hobie]

and Jesus knew all this because Judas was intended, from all eternity, to be the one to deliver Jesus over for execution so that the divine plan of redemption could play out. It is NOT the case that Judas was one of the Elect but then lost his Faith, conveniently in time to be able to play the role that he did.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...sciple-if-he-knew-he-was-going-to-betray-him/

Nineveh was in the same boat (no pun intended) and yet they turned from their sins, so God allows for us to come to Him or go away, just because He knows the future doesn't mean He 'forces' us into sin.

 

[Albion]

Nineveh was in the same boat (no pun intended) and yet they turned from their sins, so God allows for us to come to Him or go away, just because He knows the future doesn't mean He 'forces' us into sin.

If true, that doesn't change a thing as regards Judas, does it?

 

[Josiah]

131 MILLION people are born every year.... that REALITY does not mandate that ergo everyone of them had the free will to be born and simply chose to come to life.

It's illogical and absurd to argue that just because something happens that ergo it must be the result of "free will" and simple choice.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says the dead choose life and thus give it to themselves (physical OR spiritual). Indeed, the Bible supports the opposite. Now, can one in essence "commit suicide?" Yup - certainly physically and maybe spiritually. But because we can terminate life doesn't mean ERGO we can create life by our free will.