The False Doctrine of 'Once Saved, Always Saved'.

hobie

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Many people or ministers try to tell people that once they become Christians they are guarranteed salvation, but is this doctrine of 'Once Saved, Always Saved' what the Bible teaches, lets see. If you look in the Bible, salvation or to be saved, can be described as both past, present, and future, because it can be speaking of different aspects. If it is not understood, there can be confusion.

But the Bible clearly tells us that even those who are Christians can fall away from salvation...

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 3:5-7
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

So those who teach or preach 'Once Saved, Always Saved' really are saying, "I can do whatever I want, as long as I claim to have accepted Jesus."

If we continue in sin, after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Saviour, are we really in a saved relationship, are we converted? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

There are other text that these teachers of 'Once Saved ,Always Saved' miss....
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:19-23.

One is not saved just by becoming a Christian, this false doctrine has deceived many, and opened the door to those who want cheap grace and a guick cover for their sins and living in iniquity, and on the path to depart from the faith of Jesus and lose salvation...
 

Particular

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Many people or ministers try to tell people that once they become Christians they are guarranteed salvation, but is this doctrine of 'Once Saved, Always Saved' what the Bible teaches, lets see. If you look in the Bible, salvation or to be saved, can be described as both past, present, and future, because it can be speaking of different aspects. If it is not understood, there can be confusion.

But the Bible clearly tells us that even those who are Christians can fall away from salvation...

1 Corinthians 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 3:5-7
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

So those who teach or preach 'Once Saved, Always Saved' really are saying, "I can do whatever I want, as long as I claim to have accepted Jesus."

If we continue in sin, after we have asked Jesus to be our personal Saviour, are we really in a saved relationship, are we converted? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

There are other text that these teachers of 'Once Saved ,Always Saved' miss....
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Romans 2:13.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:19-23.

One is not saved just by becoming a Christian, this false doctrine has deceived many, and opened the door to those who want cheap grace and a guick cover for their sins and living in iniquity, and on the path to depart from the faith of Jesus and lose salvation...
This issue is purely an issue for synergists who teach free-will salvation.
The assumption that humans instigate and cause their reaction to God's call results in a position that humans are responsible for salvation.
One group declares that humans chose to receive salvation and thus they can also toss salvation away.
Another group declares that humans choose to receive salvation, but once God puts the stamp of approval on that choice, that specific human can no longer toss their salvation away.
The latter group has a massive contradiction in their view. You are right to point it out. Your position is much more consistent with the logic of, if you can choose to accept you can choose to reject.

Since I believe no human can choose God, but God can and does choose whom He will save, I have no dog in this fight. I will leave it to the Arminians and "traditionalists" to argue their nuanced position.
 

Josiah

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I, too, reject Once Saved, Always Saved.


Here's what I accept instead....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thessalonians 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."



Seems to me some "evangelicals" essentially deny the Gospel and some radical, latter-day Calvinists deny the Law. IMO, both are correct.


As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." There is Law and Gospel. To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic and to essentially deny one of them. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it. CONTEXT matters.... the Gospel verses are all there to comfort, insure, strengthen Christians perhaps struggling with doubt and sin; the Law verses are there to warn those who think little of their sin and too much of their own worthiness, works, etc.

OSAS also is flawed because it simply eliminates the third aspect of Justification, faith. It advances "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus" and deletes faith. This is a flaw in radical later-day Calvinism and why this eventually morphed into universalism. Faith matters. Where there is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, there IS Justification. Where there is only Sola Gratia - Solus Chrsitus, there is not. Kinda simple. Now, I wouldn't press this TOO far - faith is never complete, doubts do annoy ("Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief") and lapsed can even occur.... but one who clearly and persistently denies Christ does not have faith and so the Sola Fide part is missing. The idea that we are saved WITHOUT faith is simply unbiblical (and unchristian).



- Josiah




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Albion

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Wow. I have been one who thinks he sees some sense in both sides of this argument, but as I read your careful explanation, Josiah, it looks to me like the verses support Eternal Security (OSAS, so called) but the conclusion conflicts with them as well as the answer I've received from every member of a Reformed church I have ever spoken with.

So...:unsure:
 

Lämmchen

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We're secure in knowing God will not toss us aside...but not so secure in that man can turn from faith and reject the Savior and forgiveness of sins.
 

Andrew

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The good shepherd's flock of sheep are always accounted for because they hear and follow instinctively to their masters voice, if one shall wander astray He will hold his flock behind and find the lost sheep and walk it back to the flock by his side, wolves however will try to sneak into the herd to devour just one but the sheep are protected and enclosed near their master, goats have a 'free will' instinct thus cannot be told on command to follow the master, the master can grab them by the horns and tug and the goat will resist and pull back and once the master lets go, the goat will wander off on it's own.. interesting fact, meat packers use goats to lead sheep to slaughter known as the "Judas", because a flock of sheep will blindly follow a stray goat.
Goats also like to squeeze themselves through gates and tight areas, they are very unpredictable compared to sheep who are obedient to their master.. the crook that the shepherd holds is to hook a lost sheep and grab him, the master then will clinch the sheep between his thighs and clean the sheep of any thorns, ticks and fleas that may spread throughout the herd before releasing him back into the flock.

The good shepherd will not lose even ONE of his flock!

"Once Saved Always Saved" is not something we should just utter into the air nonsensically as it benefits no one not even the church but it's always good to trust God and hear what He tells you in the Spirit, Angels will rejoice with you in knowing that Jesus Christ has delivered you and the congregation will rejoice in gladness as one but always remember that the good shepherd never loses even one of his sheep so just preach the gospel and try not to preach only to the choir but join them in celebration and worship.
 
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psalms 91

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Sheep obey and all through the New testament we are admonished to ffollow and obey and there are a few scriptures that talk about those who dont.
 

Lämmchen

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Sheep obey and all through the New testament we are admonished to ffollow and obey and there are a few scriptures that talk about those who dont.
Yes, scripture talks about those who don't obey... the shepherd leaves the flock to go after the sheep who wanders. :D

But I know what you mean otherwise because the Law does warn us that if we turn from God we won't be saved.
 

Josiah

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Wow. I have been one who thinks he sees some sense in both sides of this argument, but as I read your careful explanation, Josiah, it looks to me like the verses support Eternal Security (OSAS, so called) but the conclusion conflicts with them as well as the answer I've received from every member of a Reformed church I have ever spoken with.

So...:unsure:

It seems to me every one of the following Scriptures contradicts OSAS.


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."



Additionally...

The Gospel is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Yes, faith is a part of this whole, but it is the OBJECT of that faith that matters, not the quantity or quality of it. There is only ONE appropriate question: "In WHOM do I rely?" "To WHOM is my faith directed?" CHRIST is the Savior (not my faith), so the issue is the sufficiency of CHRIST, not faith.

IMO, what these later-day "Calvinists" that invented OSAS did was change the Gospel, and like Catholics, changed the focus from Christ to self (although BOTH stress that what is in us comes solely from God). For Catholics, it became the quantity and QUALITY of our lives, for these latter-day Calvinists, the quantity and QUALITY of our faith. Both create a "terror to the conscience" since there is no way to know if I'm good enough, if my faith is "true" or sufficient in quality and quantity.


An illustration:

Let's say Bob grows up in a Dutch Reformed Church, the child of a Deacon and the church organist and Sunday School Superintendent. He professes Christ - and this certainly seems sincere. "I believe it all!" Bob goes to Dartmouth College and rooms with an agnostic, who converts him. Bob now holds that Christianity, while it CAN have a good role, is simply false; Christ, if he ever lived at all, was in no sense whatever God or Savior. "I reject all that"

Let's evaluate from an OSAS position: There are three possibilities:

1. Bob NEVER believed. He totally, sincerely, absolutely thought he did, he said he did, everyone else totally believed he did. But he lied and they misunderstood. IF he REALLY believed, with TRUE faith, SUFFICIENT in quality and quantity, then he COULD NOT have "fallen away." Bob is going to hell - what he thought and said for 18 years was a lie.

2. Bob still believes. He totally, absolutely, completely rejects everything Christian but he still believes it all. Bob is lying to himself and everyone else and it is stupid for others to take what he professes and renounces with ANY seriousness: people lie, people misunderstand themselves. Bob is going to heaven.

3. Bob does NOT believe now but he is going to heaven anyway because for 18 years, he DID believe. The proper formula is: "Salvation is by faith in Christ AT ANY POINT IN ONE"S LIFE" so that a Buddhist monk, a passionate atheist is still going to heaven if - for a microsecond - the HAD faith. Of course, there's no way to know if one ever did. And Scripture is wrong to say we must CONTINUE in faith since continuing or enduring has nothing to do with anything.

So, can Bob or anyone have any veiw as to whether Bob is (or ever was) a Christian? Nope.


Now, Bob graduates with a Ph.D. in philosphy and has written books on the glories and correctness of being an agnostic. But Calvinists don't know if he's a Christian or not, saved or not, going to heaven or not; if he EVER had TRUE faith or even if he does now. In time, Bob marries Sally, a good Reformed Baptist. Bob begins going to church with Sally and eventually with the kids. While it takes 10 years, Bob states that he now believes it all. He is now a Christian. Bob and Sally become leaders of the High School Youth Group and lead a Bible study group for seekers. Bob writes a book on Christian Apologetics.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position: There are 3 possibilities -

1. Bob ALWAYS believed. It's just for 20 years, he lied (albeit entirely sincerely; he genuinely and completely THOUGH he rejected Christianity and was an agnostic). Because he believe as a kid, he HAD to believe during those 20 years and HAS to believe now. Bob is a Christian, saved, going to heaven, HE ALWAYS WAS because once you believe - you cannot do otherwise. His return to the faith only confirms this. When people SAY they reject Christ, they lie. Don't consider what people sincerely and genuinely say they believe.

2. Bob does NOT believe! If his faith had been true and real, he never would have fallen, he never would have FOR TWENTY YEARS condemned Christianity, one with TRUE faith - sufficient in quality and quantity - could not and would not do it. His "return" is disgusting and hypocritical. You just can't believe what people SAY they believe - however genuine or sincere - because people unknowingly, unintentionally LIE all the time. Bob is a pagan and is hell bound. His pastor should remove him from his positions and excommunicate him.

3. Bob was saved when he was a kid and professed faith, Bob was saved for those 20 years when he boldly denied Christ and all of Christianity without faith, Bob is saved now because he has faith. Faith has nothing to do with anything. It's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. There is no faith that matters, which is why it doesn't matter if Bob had or has faith.


Sally is killed in a horrible accident as she serves as a volunteer crossing guard at the kid's Baptist school. Bob concludes that all this God stuff is a hoax and condemns God. He returns to his agnosticism - only now as atheism. He writes a best selling book about how Christianity is the most cruel hoax there is. Bob dies in this position.

Let's evaluate from the OSAS position:

1. Bob always believed. He is again lying to himself and everyone else - as people OFTEN do. Bob sincerely, genuinely, passionately THINKS he rejects Christ but this is not a possibility. Bob believed as a kid - with REAL and TRUE and SUFFICIENT faith, ergo he is a Christian and saved. You can't believe what people say and do and proclaim because they lie all the time, they simply have NO WAY TO KNOW if they are trusting in Christ or not. Bob does and died a Christian. His funeral was at a Dutch Reformed Church, arranged by his brother. The pastor proclaimed that this atheist, famous for his anti-Christian books, is now in heaven and is a Christian which is why he is conducting this Christian funeral for him.

2. Bob NEVER believed. He NEVER had TRUE or REAL or GENUINE or SUFFICIENT faith. He never did. He lied. For over 30 years, he LIED. He never believed. He THOUGHT he did - sincerely, genuinely, passionately - and everyone else thought that, too! But it was all a lie. People LIE all the time about this stuff - although nearly always unintentionally because they GENUINELY and sincerely and passionately THINK they are trusting in Christ. But they aren't. You just can't believe what people profess. The Dutch Reformed pastor refuses to do the funeral, proclaiming that Bob is in hell - and God is glorified by the burning flames in which Bob is suffering; God gets off on this.

3. Bob is in heaven in spite of not having faith, because faith doesn't matter. All that matters is that God is getting His way. Whether Bob had faith - ever - is irrelevant. All that matters is what God gets off on: seeing Bob in heaven or watching Bob burn. It's Sola Soverignty, not Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.


Bottom line: OSAS meas there is NO WAY for Bob or anyone to know if Bob is or ever was a Christian, saved or heaven-bound. Not when he was a kid, not when he was writing all those anti-Christian books, not now. Because it's IMPOSSIBLE to know if faith is ever genuine, of sufficient quality. Bob must wait until he dies and sees beauty or flames. And even then, only Bob will know.




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Albion

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It seems to me every one of the following Scriptures contradicts OSAS.
I have a hard time seeing them that way. Most of them, anyhow. The "problem" is, I think, that people read these and conclude that they are warnings or that they tell why people are lost. But if viewed just as they stand, they are more like object lessons, describing what DOES happen more than WHY it happens.

Here's one that I choose at random--

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Does this say that IF we stand firm until the end, we will be saved BECAUSE of standing firm? Or does it say that those who do are the ones who will be saved? It's a characteristic of such people to stand firm, but the standing doesn't earn merit.

This is similar to the message of the Epistle of James that is so often misunderstood. People say he is describing how we are saved through performing works and not by faith alone, but his focus is people who CLAIM to have faith, but really do not.








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Particular

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I have a hard time seeing them that way. Most of them, anyhow. The "problem" is, I think, that people read these and conclude that they are warnings or that they tell why people are lost. But if viewed just as they stand, they are more like object lessons, describing what DOES happen more than WHY it happens.

Here's one that I choose at random--

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Does this say that IF we stand firm until the end, we will be saved BECAUSE of standing firm? Or does it say that those who do are the ones who will be saved? It's a characteristic of such people to stand firm, but the standing doesn't earn merit.

This is similar to the message of the Epistle of James that is so often misunderstood. People say he is describing how we are saved through performing works and not by faith alone, but his focus is people who CLAIM to have faith, but really do not.








.
Here is a perfect example of why quoting a verse and claiming a theology from it is dangerous and faulty.

"If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luke 4:7

Now look at the context.

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’” And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
Luke 4:1-13
 

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Context is EVERYTHING.
 

hobie

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This issue is purely an issue for synergists who teach free-will salvation.
The assumption that humans instigate and cause their reaction to God's call results in a position that humans are responsible for salvation.
One group declares that humans chose to receive salvation and thus they can also toss salvation away.
Another group declares that humans choose to receive salvation, but once God puts the stamp of approval on that choice, that specific human can no longer toss their salvation away.
The latter group has a massive contradiction in their view. You are right to point it out. Your position is much more consistent with the logic of, if you can choose to accept you can choose to reject.

Since I believe no human can choose God, but God can and does choose whom He will save, I have no dog in this fight. I will leave it to the Arminians and "traditionalists" to argue their nuanced position.
The Holy Spirit which is as Christ said, like the wind, beats against each and every one of us, calling us to what is from God. Now we can accept its guidance or reject it, that is our freewill, and there as you say this 'causes' a reaction.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

I, too, reject Once Saved, Always Saved.


Here's what I accept instead....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thessalonians 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."



Seems to me some "evangelicals" essentially deny the Gospel and some radical, latter-day Calvinists deny the Law. IMO, both are correct.


As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." There is Law and Gospel. To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic and to essentially deny one of them. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it. CONTEXT matters.... the Gospel verses are all there to comfort, insure, strengthen Christians perhaps struggling with doubt and sin; the Law verses are there to warn those who think little of their sin and too much of their own worthiness, works, etc.

OSAS
also is flawed because it simply eliminates the third aspect of Justification, faith. It advances "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus" and deletes faith. This is a flaw in radical later-day Calvinism and why this eventually morphed into universalism. Faith matters. Where there is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, there IS Justification. Where there is only Sola Gratia - Solus Chrsitus, there is not. Kinda simple. Now, I wouldn't press this TOO far - faith is never complete, doubts do annoy ("Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief") and lapsed can even occur.... but one who clearly and persistently denies Christ does not have faith and so the Sola Fide part is missing. The idea that we are saved WITHOUT faith is simply unbiblical (and unchristian).



- Josiah



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Here is a perfect example of why quoting a verse and claiming a theology from it is dangerous and faulty.

"If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luke 4:7

Now look at the context.

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’” And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
Luke 4:1-13

I don't think anyone has suggested Luke 4:1-13 applies to the issue here, the issue of whether there is salvation apart from faith and whether all the warnings in Scripture are irrelevant.
 

Albion

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The Holy Spirit which is as Christ said, like the wind, beats against each and every one of us, calling us to what is from God. Now we can accept its guidance or reject it, that is our freewill, and there as you say this 'causes' a reaction.
The HS may be compared, in his actions, to the wind or something else, but Holy Scripture uses the personal pronoun for him. The Holy Spirit is not, therefore, a mere force, object, another word for the Father, or anything else like that.
 

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The HS may be compared, in his actions, to the wind or something else, but Holy Scripture uses the personal pronoun for him. The Holy Spirit is not, therefore, a mere force, object, another word for the Father, or anything else like that.
Of course not, but it is there and if we from our freewill allow it to do its work then we are drawn to God, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we put ourselves on dangerous ground.
 

Josiah

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Of course not, but it is there and if we from our freewill allow it to do its work then we are drawn to God, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we put ourselves on dangerous ground.
So, does the dead enemy of God CHOOSE (out of some 'freewlll') to give dead self spiritual life - the Holy Spirit - saving faith (Justification) and thus one has that? OR does the Holy Spirit come and give such? What you posted seems confusing, you have the Holy Spirit "drawing" but also you have the dead enemy "choosing." Which is it? You might want to read this thread: https://christianityhaven.com/showt...eran-Reformation-(Celebrated-Each-October-31)

Yes, if the dead one "rejects" God (which is all the dead one will do, all the dead CAN do according to the Bible), then that's a bad thing (seldom do the dead do anything good) - I think we'd all agree to that. Dead "choosing" to stay dead (because the dead can't choose anything) will mean they stay dead; no dead one gives self life.



But this thread is not about how/why those who are spiritually dead come to life. It's about whether one is saved apart from faith (because they ONCE had faith but no longer).





.
 

Albion

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Of course not, but it is there and if we from our freewill allow it to do its work then we are drawn to God, if we reject the Holy Spirit, we put ourselves on dangerous ground.
And yet you continue to refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it."
 

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And yet you continue to refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it."
I myself don't consider "HS" to be proper, so lets just say "Holy Spirit", is that preferable?
 

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I myself don't consider "HS" to be proper, so lets just say "Holy Spirit", is that preferable?
HS/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/the Comforter. It doesn't matter which of those is used here.

What I was pointing out was that you continued to refer to the Holy Spirit as "it," despite your claim to the opposite.

"It" is a pronoun used for inanimate objects, not persons. And that's in conflict with the language used in the Bible when referring to the Holy Spirit.
 
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