WORTHY

[Lamb]

Did you say it like a a danger to the soul the look inwardly at self!?

It is a danger not to.

This man is in no way denying the Christ or His blood, or His resurrection. He most certainly isn't saying his works apart from Christ are worth any value in the kingdom of GOD. In fact he seems to continually be expounding on exactly what is given freely and how that the lazy hypocritical servant will have even that which they received taken from them if they do not put it to use (work)

To deny that faith is effectual is to deny the Truth.

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The LAW tells us to look at our self...the Law always accuses us of our sins.

The GOSPEL tells us to look to Jesus, His death on the cross and the forgiveness of sins. This always brings us comfort and never accuses us. Only the Gospel can bring us to eternal life since none of us can be perfect enough (except Jesus) to fulfill what the Law requires.

This is why it's so important to distinguish properly between Law and Gospel. If you cling to the Law you miss the absolute sweetness that the Gospel brings...that God saves your soul from eternal damnation.

 

[Lamb]

And what of those who say they believe but who's works do not reflect said belief?

If one believes something; then they carry out their life according to that belief. Faith is effectual.

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The Holy Spirit will guide believers into doing the works He has planned for you. Don't you believe that? If we rely on our works to get eternal life then we will because ONLY Jesus can perfectly fulfill what the Law requires of perfection. Your works are always tainted by sin because you still live in a sinful body.

I'm not saying to don't do good works because we should as our neighbors need them. God does not.

 

[Lamb]

When you read what he has written, thread after thread, he does in fact say that he must overcome and do many works to inherit eternal life. Lambie is not wrong. He also believes that he can't be wrong and anyone who says he is wrong and shows him from Scripture how he is wrong, is just a child who is not on his level, he even used such language in a recent response to her. Talking with someone with that mindset is a waste of time, because the conversation can't go anywhere.

You're right. When someone continuously has to puff himself up instead of boasting in Jesus, the cross and forgiveness of sins you have to suspect that something is very wrong in his doctrine. I really look forward to that moment of "AHa!" when he realizes that objectively he has been forgiven by Jesus for all his sins and he'll feel that joy and peace that the truth of the Gospel brings to his soul for eternal life.

 

[Lamb]

Indeed, our "faith" is only proven by what we do. An abstract faith is not faith at all.

"I will show you my faith by my works." - James 2:18

“Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” - 2Tim 2:19

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - Phil 2:12

"I know your works..." - Jesus to every church in Rev 2 & 3


“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes..." - Jesus to every church in Rev 2 & 3




.

God is the one who gives faith. He doesn't need you to prove that you have it. Only HE can see the heart of man.

We do works because our neighbors need them, God doesn't need them. Faith WILL produce works...a bird flies, a fish swims, a believer does good works...he can do no other. Believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and we KNOW that God's will be done, so that good works WILL be produced by us. We might fight the Holy Spirit from time to time but in the end, God wins doesn't he? Look at Jonah.

 

[popsthebuilder]

OH but we HAVE. Anyone who inherits something because of someone's death doesn't have to earn it. So right there your works righteousness theology fails the test.

How do you not get that it isn't obtaining the inheritance that is being discussed, but what one does with what they received?

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[popsthebuilder]

The LAW tells us to look at our self...the Law always accuses us of our sins.

The GOSPEL tells us to look to Jesus, His death on the cross and the forgiveness of sins. This always brings us comfort and never accuses us. Only the Gospel can bring us to eternal life since none of us can be perfect enough (except Jesus) to fulfill what the Law requires.

This is why it's so important to distinguish properly between Law and Gospel. If you cling to the Law you miss the absolute sweetness that the Gospel brings...that God saves your soul from eternal damnation.

I'm pretty sure the Lord chastines those He loves.

Having a seared or skewed conscience isn't the same as abiding by the law of the Spirit.

Do you think we aren't to emulate Jesus? That we are to disregard His teachings and work He did for our sake?

Are we not to reflect the Light of GOD if we are part of His body?

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[popsthebuilder]

The Holy Spirit will guide believers into doing the works He has planned for you. Don't you believe that? If we rely on our works to get eternal life then we will because ONLY Jesus can perfectly fulfill what the Law requires of perfection. Your works are always tainted by sin because you still live in a sinful body.

I'm not saying to don't do good works because we should as our neighbors need them. God does not.

You say the Spirit of GOD will guide into doing good works, but that doing good works isn't needed.

You don't see a problem with that?

GOD does nothing in vain or idle fancy. If you are given something priceless do you cherish it or disregard it?

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[popsthebuilder]

God is the one who gives faith. He doesn't need you to prove that you have it. Only HE can see the heart of man.

We do works because our neighbors need them, God doesn't need them. Faith WILL produce works...a bird flies, a fish swims, a believer does good works...he can do no other. Believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and we KNOW that God's will be done, so that good works WILL be produced by us. We might fight the Holy Spirit from time to time but in the end, God wins doesn't he? Look at Jonah.

Pretty sure it is repeatedly said we are judged by the content of our heart.

Also pretty sure that the contents of the heart is reflected in word and deed.

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[zecryphon_nomdiv]

You say the Spirit of GOD will guide into doing good works, but that doing good works isn't needed.

You don't see a problem with that?

GOD does nothing in vain or idle fancy. If you are given something priceless do you cherish it or disregard it?

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There isn't a problem with what Lamm is saying because she's not putting forth the teaching that our good works merit us a reward from God. Let me try saying this a different way, good works are a result of faith in Christ, not something we do to receive a reward from God when we die. I don't know you very well, but I think you would agree with that statement.

From post # 4 of Michael's thread entitled The GOAL.

"Let as many as are mature, realize that there is a GOAL which we must strive after and walk worthy of if we are to attain it; lest we become comfortable and lazy believing that Jesus did it all."

Michael clearly teaches that we must do in order to receive. He can't, for whatever reason rest in the promises of Christ. Also, no one is saying: "don't do good works. Be lazy. Do nothing with the gifts God has given you." But he thinks that is what people like Lamm and I believe and teach. Christianity for him is a quid pro quo arrangement and THAT is not taught in Scripture. Everything we have, has been given to us. We have earned nothing, and we don't deserve anything except death and hell.

He teaches otherwise, but in all his threads he never says which works we must do and how many we need to do to attain eternal life with God on the new earth. Don't you find that strange? Especially since we have to earn our way there, at least according to his understanding of Scripture.

 

[Michael]

OH but we HAVE. Anyone who inherits something because of someone's death doesn't have to earn it. So right there your works righteousness theology fails the test.

Oh, friend... the Truth is you HAVEN'T yet inherited these promises. Nor have I. That's the point of the bulk of the New Testament letters... we have to attain to these. We have to be proven worthy, just as the Man Jesus, (not the Logos, but the physical Man), had to prove Himself worthy to God through obedience to "become the Author of Eternal Salvation to those who obey Him." (Heb 5:9) Plus, Jesus is ALIVE, not dead, so that human understanding of "inheritance" is inaccurate.

Time & space do not permit here, but I've done a bit of teaching on the Biblical understanding of "inheritance", which is not the same as our modern English. First off, Jesus "inherited the nations", not because God died, but because Jesus proved faithful. That is clear Bible. I have shared some on this understanding in the Romans 8 Study in the Bible Study section on this site, probably at least a dozen printed pages or so.

Again, as Paul the Apostle confessed -

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind." - Phil 3:12-16

Remember, as well, that our "salvation" is not yet complete. Besides having to "obey" Christ to receive that "Eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9), the Scripture declares that Jesus is "bringing salvation to those who are waiting for Him." (Heb 9:28) This is speaking to those who have been "saved", not to the heathen, so we can see that "we have not yet attained." As Israel in the wilderness, whom God had "saved" from bondage, most failed to obtain their promised inheritance because they failed to obey and walk worthy. And Paul says in several places that the same is True for us. We "will not inherit the Kingdom" if we allow sin to remain in our lives (1Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:5, and Gal 5:21 are written directly to "Christians", not the world.) If we fail to "overcome" we will not receive the promises of Rev 2 & 3. And THAT is Bible!

Let us "be mature" and realize that we are in this together. Let us lay aside petty carnal attitudes and understanding, and "let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works'" (Heb 10:24)

I must admit, all this debating has really served to strengthen my understanding of the Word, and to see clearer God's great plan and purpose for His Church and all Creation. I could wish our discussions could be a little more civil, but...

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom and Understanding to all,
Michael
:ange06:


.

 

[Lamb]

God has promised that I will inherit eternal life by believing in His Son.

God does not lie.

Titus 1:2 This truth gives them confidence that they have eternal life, which God—who does not lie—promised them before the world began.

Titus 3:7 having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.


John 3:16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life…

2 Timothy 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

 

[Andrew]

I believe the Lords prayer speaks on this matter.
We must ask for forgiveness of our sins, we must ask for deliverance from the evil one, this is not just a one time prayer, we are always in need of repentance no matter how hard you convince yourself that all of your works are perfect in Gods eye.. and their is no personal savior, Jesus tells us to pray to "Our" Father..
What I'm getting at is that we cannot prove our faith to anyone but to God, we can't even prove to ourselves that our works is what gives us faith or maintains our faith with such certainty (we shouldn't expect a good feeling when we do something good, but we should expect conviction when we do something bad).. I believe that if we say we are without sin we lie.. and lying is also a sin
Let not your right hand know what the left is doing, let God be the instructor of His works in you and not of your self reliant awareness lest any man boast for we may even entertain angels so there is no showmanship but only Gods workmanship.. repent daily in fear and trembling with prayer and conviction of the heart, you know it when your heart aches because of something you did or said.. Even Paul was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble

 

[popsthebuilder]

There isn't a problem with what Lamm is saying because she's not putting forth the teaching that our good works merit us a reward from God. Let me try saying this a different way, good works are a result of faith in Christ, not something we do to receive a reward from God when we die. I don't know you very well, but I think you would agree with that statement.

From post # 4 of Michael's thread entitled The GOAL.

"Let as many as are mature, realize that there is a GOAL which we must strive after and walk worthy of if we are to attain it; lest we become comfortable and lazy believing that Jesus did it all."

Michael clearly teaches that we must do in order to receive. He can't, for whatever reason rest in the promises of Christ. Also, no one is saying: "don't do good works. Be lazy. Do nothing with the gifts God has given you." But he thinks that is what people like Lamm and I believe and teach. Christianity for him is a quid pro quo arrangement and THAT is not taught in Scripture. Everything we have, has been given to us. We have earned nothing, and we don't deserve anything except death and hell.

He teaches otherwise, but in all his threads he never says which works we must do and how many we need to do to attain eternal life with God on the new earth. Don't you find that strange? Especially since we have to earn our way there, at least according to his understanding of Scripture.

Being mature in faith is not the same as not having yet received faith.

He is not speaking about what you think.

Your first statement I do agree with. That is that faith is effectual.

peace friend

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[popsthebuilder]

There isn't a problem with what Lamm is saying because she's not putting forth the teaching that our good works merit us a reward from God. Let me try saying this a different way, good works are a result of faith in Christ, not something we do to receive a reward from God when we die. I don't know you very well, but I think you would agree with that statement.

From post # 4 of Michael's thread entitled The GOAL.

"Let as many as are mature, realize that there is a GOAL which we must strive after and walk worthy of if we are to attain it; lest we become comfortable and lazy believing that Jesus did it all."

Michael clearly teaches that we must do in order to receive. He can't, for whatever reason rest in the promises of Christ. Also, no one is saying: "don't do good works. Be lazy. Do nothing with the gifts God has given you." But he thinks that is what people like Lamm and I believe and teach. Christianity for him is a quid pro quo arrangement and THAT is not taught in Scripture. Everything we have, has been given to us. We have earned nothing, and we don't deserve anything except death and hell.

He teaches otherwise, but in all his threads he never says which works we must do and how many we need to do to attain eternal life with God on the new earth. Don't you find that strange? Especially since we have to earn our way there, at least according to his understanding of Scripture.

He also repeatedly has implied that what is for him is not for each; and that he is speaking about the very elect

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[popsthebuilder]

Oh, friend... the Truth is you HAVEN'T yet inherited these promises. Nor have I. That's the point of the bulk of the New Testament letters... we have to attain to these. We have to be proven worthy, just as the Man Jesus, (not the Logos, but the physical Man), had to prove Himself worthy to God through obedience to "become the Author of Eternal Salvation to those who obey Him." (Heb 5:9) Plus, Jesus is ALIVE, not dead, so that human understanding of "inheritance" is inaccurate.

Time & space do not permit here, but I've done a bit of teaching on the Biblical understanding of "inheritance", which is not the same as our modern English. First off, Jesus "inherited the nations", not because God died, but because Jesus proved faithful. That is clear Bible. I have shared some on this understanding in the Romans 8 Study in the Bible Study section on this site, probably at least a dozen printed pages or so.

Again, as Paul the Apostle confessed -

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind." - Phil 3:12-16

Remember, as well, that our "salvation" is not yet complete. Besides having to "obey" Christ to receive that "Eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9), the Scripture declares that Jesus is "bringing salvation to those who are waiting for Him." (Heb 9:28) This is speaking to those who have been "saved", not to the heathen, so we can see that "we have not yet attained." As Israel in the wilderness, whom God had "saved" from bondage, most failed to obtain their promised inheritance because they failed to obey and walk worthy. And Paul says in several places that the same is True for us. We "will not inherit the Kingdom" if we allow sin to remain in our lives (1Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:5, and Gal 5:21 are written directly to "Christians", not the world.) If we fail to "overcome" we will not receive the promises of Rev 2 & 3. And THAT is Bible!

Let us "be mature" and realize that we are in this together. Let us lay aside petty carnal attitudes and understanding, and "let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works'" (Heb 10:24)

I must admit, all this debating has really served to strengthen my understanding of the Word, and to see clearer God's great plan and purpose for His Church and all Creation. I could wish our discussions could be a little more civil, but...

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom and Understanding to all,
Michael
:ange06:


.

You seem to be speaking about sanctification. Is that accurate friend?

Debating is a great way to check the soundness of one's own doctrine in my opinion. Civility is key to actually being heard; and can be difficult at times.


peace

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[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Being mature in faith is not the same as not having yet received faith.

He is not speaking about what you think.

Your first statement I do agree with. That is that faith is effectual.

peace friend

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Of course being mature in the faith and not having received faith, are not the same thing. I never said they were.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Of course being mature in the faith and not having received faith, are not the same thing. I never said they were.

If mature in faith then one will, via adoration of and empowerment by the very Holy Spirit of GOD, witness the working of the will of GOD reflected through "their" vessel and heart.

He is speaking of sanctification it seems; just wording it differently as to not nullify it's significance seemingly.

I'm glad you agree that if one is "saved" then they will reflect the Light of GOD in their doings.

We agree that such a thing is ultimately between the individual and their Lord.

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[zecryphon_nomdiv]

What it really comes down to, for me, is why a person does good works. With Michael, it seems he advocates doing them to gain something from God, namely eternal life on the new earth. For myself, good works are a fruit of my faith in Christ and what my neighbor needs. I don't do good works expecting a reward or to be rewarded for doing them.

 

[Andrew]

What it really comes down to, for me, is why a person does good works. With Michael, it seems he advocates doing them to gain something from God, namely eternal life on the new earth. For myself, good works are a fruit of my faith in Christ and what my neighbor needs. I don't do good works expecting a reward or to be rewarded for doing them.

Amen to that, I would like to say that Michael is misunderstood but I would be wrong.. maybe he sees the wickedness as something lacking from Gods people but the scripture tells us that Christ did not come to bring peace to the world.. Godly works are indeed good but it's an act from Faith not for it

 

[popsthebuilder]

What it really comes down to, for me, is why a person does good works. With Michael, it seems he advocates doing them to gain something from God, namely eternal life on the new earth. For myself, good works are a fruit of my faith in Christ and what my neighbor needs. I don't do good works expecting a reward or to be rewarded for doing them.

I'm hoping that if asked then he would not say we do for eternal reward; though that is the same reason the general Christian professes a name anyway.

Do you really think he desires to expound on the things of GOD outwardly for his own reward? And an earthly reward such as power over men, or high placement among the "church"....these things are bad. But you will be hard pressed to find scripture telling us not to look forward to recompense for our doings here in this life. We are told that run the race.

To claim works aren't pertinent to "salvation" is to inadvertently proclaim that all sorts of sin and atrocity is looked over by GOD who is just. Such is not logical.

Some seem to want the act as he is preaching righteousness apart from Christ. I'm certain he will again attest to the fact that none is righteous in any part apart from, or separate to the Christ and Word and Spirit of GOD working in their heart and filling the thoughts of their mind.

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