- Joined
- Jun 12, 2015
- Messages
- 13,927
- Gender
- Male
- Religious Affiliation
- Lutheran
- Political Affiliation
- Conservative
- Marital Status
- Married
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
- Yes
Josiah said:
1. If what Jesus so deliberately said.... and Paul by inspiration penned..... is but metaphor, that it is "OBVIOUSLY" symbolic according to the words. ... then why did not ONE Christian, not even one... in over 1500 years .... EVER notice or even theorize or speculate or even suggest such a thing? Not one. Not for over 1500 years. If it's just "OBVIOUS" by the WORDS ON THE PAGE.... "obvious"..... then why did it entirely, completely, wholly allude every single Christian who ever lived for over 1500 years? Did God or Satan universally and completely BLIND everyone to what is "OBVIOUS?" How can that be explained if it's "just obvious by the words?"
2. And why the stern warnings and the effects associated with this? See 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 Read that. Consider that. IF there's no body to discern here because it's not there, then why the warning about not discerning it in the "cup and bread?" My point is not the content of the warning in 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, it's the absurdity of the warning if we're dealing only with a metaphor. Well, maybe God was just kidding or being metaphoric there, too (hey, maybe John 3:16 is just metaphor). Why this punishment for not discerning something that isn't there? Now foot washing was a metaphor, a symbol.... but there's NO warning associated with it, NOTHING remotely of the nature of 1 Corinthians 11:27-30. The Passover Meal was symbolic, but there is never any warning associated with it or consequences associated with it, NOTHING remotely of the nature of 1 Corinthians 11:27-30. 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 seems absurd, even evil and wrong, if Jesus didn't mean what He said, if it's "obvious by the words" that this is only a metaphor.
3. And, perhaps BECAUSE foot washing was universally, always seen as symbolic, it wasn't practiced much by the early church (it's just metaphor) but Communion was critical, a part of every worship service, often seen as the highlight of Christian worship, the Sacrament seen as very important (unlike anything regarded as metaphor or symbol). I'm curious..... if the words mean it's "clearly OBVIOUS" this is just metaphor, only a symbol (like foot washing), then why was/is it seen SO important unlike EVERY case of ANYTHING always seen as symbolic?
Oh, well..... just curious. I'm standing with what Jesus said and Paul penned.... what 100% of Christians for over 15 Centuries universally believed and treasured. I'm just not buying the whole apologetic of "It can't be true - so it's not." IMO, it's likely not one Christian for over 1500 years saw this as obviously metaphoric because it's not. And every Christian held this is very important and a treasured blessing because it is. The biblical warning makes sense because it's not a symbol, we are to discern something because there is something to discern, not nothing. If it was the equal of foot washing, then it would be universally and ALWAYS embraced as such.... not regarded as terribly important.... no warnings about it. Obviously, some have bought into Zwingli's doubts and reinvention and disagree.
Prove it.
Easy. Took me less than two seconds.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
The Didache
St. Clement of Rome
St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Justin Martyr
St. Irenaeus of Lyons
St. Clement of Alexandria
St. Cyprian of Carthage
Aphraates the Persian Sage
St. Serapion of Antioch
St. Ephrem of Syria
St. Athanasius of Alexandria
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
St. Hilary of Poiters
St. Basil the Great
St. Epiphanius of Salamis
St. Gregory of Nazianzen
St. Gregory of Nyssa
St. John Chrysostom
St. Ambrose of Milan
Egeria
Aurelius Prudentius Clemens
St. Jerome
Apostolic Constitutions
St. Cyril of Alexandria
St. Augustine of Hippo
Marcarius the Magnesian
St. Leo the Great
St. Caesarius of Arles
St. Fulgentius of Ruspe
Just a short list of those accepting what Jesus said and Paul penned, verbatim accepting Real Presence. Just in the first 400 years. There are many, many, many more.
Now, present your long list of Christians who insisted that Jesus and Paul did not mean what they said/pinned but instead meant just some metaphor. Let's compare lists.
.
Last edited: