The Apocrypha: Does it belong in the Bible?

Bluezone777

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I'd like to think God is more than capable of getting His Word down on paper and preserved throughout the ages in spite of all efforts to either distort or simply destroy it altogether. I think the Bible is fit as is and doesn't need any additional books added to it. It doesn't mean you can't look at those other books but I don't think they should be put on par with the ones listed in the typical bible we have today.
 

Arsenios

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My determination to talk about these OT books however
is due to the fact that I have no denomination,
and I have no prejudice towards any,

The God-Quest of the Christian Faith...
Is a Reality-Quest...
Centered in Truth...

I followed God 36 years while denying He existed...
Because I was willing to sacrifice everything for the Truth...
Walked with Him another 14 knowing He is NOT the Christian God...
And was scandalized to find out that He IS the Christian God...

My skull is armor plated thick, I say!

So I tell people to not do as I did...
But instead to do as Christ shows us to do...
As the Church disciples us to do...

Hardest thing I ever did...
Was become a Christian...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Im going to start growing my beard

A manly thing to do!

No more SISSIES!!

Men are MEN!

We die for our women and children!

We don't have women dying for us and our kiddos!

and I'm going to walk 44 miles to the nearest EOC I guess lol

You don't have a skateboard???

heeheehee!

Call that Church -
Talk to the Priest -
Tell him you got a bee in your bonnet to come see an Orthodox Service...
If he asks why, tell him to buzz off!
Or tell him some probably not well person on the internet is stirring up trouble!
Heck, tell him the truth even!
Then tell him your problem...
44 miles and no skateboard.
Does he have anyone from your area who might give you a ride, you might ask...
If he says no, see if there might be a bus and someone to pick you up...
Having done all that, God will figure it out for you...
Or not!...
And it will come later...
Meanwhile, I think you can find a church online doing live Services Sunday mornings...
Maybe...
But there is nothing like encountering people in and after Services...
A Service is the Gathering of the Faithful...

I had to drive an hour and ten minutes each way for my Services each Sunday -
So I got there really early, and was pretty much the last to leave...
For four years before the Priest...
In a moment of mental fugue and distracted weakness...
Agreed to baptize me...
It was so far away we ended up starting a Mission Church...
But enough of frivolity!

(wow what a distance of separation between our churches! ;) )

There is a huge distance between the Ancient Faith and modern Biblical derivations...
The standard transition book for Evangelicals is "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gilquist...
Not for me, for I am a recovering Atheist...
Fr. Peter was a CCC* minister whose CCC group went looking for the Ancient Faith...
And they found it...
Imitated it...
Finally joined it...

Arsenios

*Campus Crusade for Christ
 

Arsenios

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I'd like to think God is more than capable of getting His Word down on paper and preserved throughout the ages in spite of all efforts to either distort or simply destroy it altogether. I think the Bible is fit as is and doesn't need any additional books added to it. It doesn't mean you can't look at those other books but I don't think they should be put on par with the ones listed in the typical bible we have today.

Those books (the LXX) have been included in the Bible for 2000 years...

Are you arguing that they should be removed from the Bible?

I remember when Rome interrupted a Service of the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople to deliver a Papal Bull of Excommunication on our Church...
They demanded indignantly to know WHY we had REMOVED the Filioque from the Creed!
They had no idea that they had ADDED it to the Creed...

Similarly now in reverse - We are not adding anything to the Bible - We are simply arguing for its RESTORATION where it always has been...

The LXX IS the Old Testament Canon...


Arsenios
 
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Josiah

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[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

The LXX.

Arsenios


Perhaps according to YOU..... maybe......

But do many of the Orthodox Churches agree with you? Does the Anglican Church? Does the Catholic Church?


arsenios said:
Those books (the LXX) have been included in the Bible for 2000 years...


MAYBE, perhaps, in YOUR Bible, but no other.... Have you seen a Coptic Orthodox Bible? A Catholic Bible? A Reformed Bible? An Anglican Bible? If you had seen ANY bible in most of Europe would it have included all the books in the LXX? All you are doing is confirming my point: People speak of "these books" with zero consensus to what "these" even are. People tend to ASSUME what is very, very wrong - that everyone has always accepted the SAME books (even in the SAME way) when in fact that has NEVER been the case, not even close.
 

Andrew

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WHICH books are "these?" The "set" found in the LXX? The set found in the Coptic Orthodox Church's Bible? The Syrian Orthodox Church's? The Greek Orthodox Church? The set Luther included in his German translation of the Bible? The set included by the Catholic Church at the Council of Florence in the 15th Century? The set the Anglican Church included in the 16th Century? WHICH books are "these?"


IF the Jews accepted these books (whichever "THESE" are) as fully canonical - equal in status and function to the Pentetuch for example - when it's hard to understand the Council of Jamnia in 90AD, a very uncontroversal Council with no protest, that eliminated all books (from any status or function) that are not found in the the OT of John Calvin. How does the Council of Jamnia prove everyone regarded "these" (whichever "these" is) books as equal to the Pentetuch and the Epistle to the Romans?


And the early Christians at times read and used some of "these" (whichever "these" are).... but there's no evidence they used them MORE than other books or even as much as others; no Church Father has been quoted defending "these" books as necessary for the Gospel as you seem to suggest.






Largely true, although Apocrypha is a term that includes dozens and dozens of Christian books, too. The Revelation of Peter for example is by some considered a part of these. And you comment is not completely true; for example, for over 1000 years, many Catholic Bibles contained 28 books (one MORE than yours), the extra was "The Epistle to the Leodiceans." Catholics will state that Luther "removed" a book from the NT in his German translation - this is the book they mean; and yes, he DID NOT include it (but then he held it was never "in" so he did not "remove" it). Even after the Councils of Florence and Trent did not specifically mention it, it was STILL in a lot of Catholic Bibles, well into the 18th Century. Yes, even without an Ecumenical Council , there did - eventually - develop a consensus on the NT. But that's not the case with the OT. No one seems to know what "these" books are - there is no consensus. And what is their status/function? Well - the EOC has one view, the Anglican Church another, the Catholic Church another.... but none of them actually USE "these" for much of anything.




.
I pointed out in an earlier post how early church fathers had held them as equal, again Clement of Rome for example write a letter to the same church that Apostle Paul wrote to where he mentions Judith in Ruth without distinction.
A good rule of thumb would be if 2 or 3 sources are in agreement then it is confirmed.
Seems like the New Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls, Samaritan Pentateuch, Josephus all seem to agree with the greek Septuagint and not the Masoretic.
Keep in mind Josiah that the Masoretic is a post-Christian era Jewish REVIVAL and NOT the same source that Jesus and the Apostles used!
"What books?" every book in the Septuagint IS OT canon, nothing more and nothing less, those are the books!

Martin Luther said that 1rst Maccabees is part of sacred scripture, yet he was so distracted by Romes dogma that he completely misinterpreted 2nd Maccabees to agree with Rome that is "suggest prayer for the dead" and so he rejected the book. As I pointed out in a previously post you can see that 2nd Maccabees does NOT suggest prayer to dead nor does it imply purgatory. No offense but Luther already had a motive to dislike 2nd Maccabees and imo he handled it very poorly by not understanding context and just wanting to label it uninspired because Rome sold indulgence to people to for their dead...

From Luthers preface to 2nc Maccabees "just as it is proper for the first book to be included among the sacred Scriptures, so it is proper that this second book should be thrown out, even though it contains some good things"
Source: LW 35:352-353
 

Andrew

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Perhaps according to YOU..... maybe......

But do many of the Orthodox Churches agree with you? Does the Anglican Church? Does the Catholic Church?





MAYBE, perhaps, in YOUR Bible, but no other.... Have you seen a Coptic Orthodox Bible? A Catholic Bible? A Reformed Bible? An Anglican Bible? If you had seen ANY bible in most of Europe would it have included all the books in the LXX? All you are doing is confirming my point: People speak of "these books" with zero consensus to what "these" even are. People tend to ASSUME what is very, very wrong - that everyone has always accepted the SAME books (even in the SAME way) when in fact that has NEVER been the case, not even close.
The council of Jamnia never finalised canon, it's a 1871 theory that apparently has been refuted by scholars since.
If there were a meeting it is STILL after Jesus walked the Earth and Paul was very aware of what the Jews were up to!
I'll go with the hebrew sources that Jesus and the Apostles read as scripture.
 

Josiah

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"What books?" every book in the Septuagint IS OT canon, nothing more and nothing less, those are the books!


I see zero evidence of that. And again, wonder if that is true by NO JEW since the First Century has accepted ANY of these whichever-they-are books. I realize SOME Christians quoted from SOME of "them" (Whichever books "them" are) but that does not mean they saw them as Scripture or inerrant or inspired or norma normans or equal to say the Epistle to the Romans.



Andrew said:
Martin Luther said that 1rst Maccabees is part of sacred scripture


I think you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the quote. Luther includes them in his TOME, the collection. But that does not mean he accepted it a canonical (ie, divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans) - he clearly accepted NONE of the unique "set" he (and he alone) listed as "apocrypha".

The books Luther included in his translation into German were not the LXX - FAR from that. He included books that were common in the Catholic lectionary at the time (one MORE book than the Council of Florence recognized) and he never claimed they were Scriptures in the usual sense of that. But again, his translation was NOT in any sense that of the LXX.




Andrew said:
he completely misinterpreted 2nd Maccabees to agree with Rome that is "suggest prayer for the dead" and so he rejected the book.


Wrong. 2 Maccabees is IN his German translation; in the tome. I've got it right in my copy of Luther's Bible at home. I've read it from that tome.


He never accepted ANY of these books as canonical; he shared his PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL, OPINION (very common in his day) that these his included (because they were in most of the lectionaries used in Germany in the 16th Century) that they are useful for reading but NOT canonical - not to be used as a source or norm for doctrine, not to be used for theology; not inspired, not inerrant, not the equal in every sense of say Luke or Romans. In his preface to the unique "set" Luther includes, he writes, “These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.” Again, WHICH books? Luther doesn't say why he included the ones he did, but we know they were commonly found in 16th Century lectionaries commonly used in Germany at that time.


Luther officially rejected ONE book. It's the book the Catholics mean when they insist that he "REMOVED" a book from the Bible for his German Translation. Few Catholics today actually realize what book that was because they've never seen Luther's translation Most Catholic tomes at the time had 28 books in the NT. Luther's had 27. AH, one less! The Catholic ones had the Epistle to the Leodiceans, Luther's did not. THAT'S the ONLY book Luther has "missing." The ONLY one commonly found in Catholic tomes of his day NOT found in Luther's translation. But Luther insisted he never "removed" it since it was never actually included - tomes and lectionaries back then often had additional resources in them. Friend, there could not be a preface to 2 Maccs if he didn't include it in his tome. But did he PERSONALLY, in his own OPINION accept ANY of "these" books (which ever "these" are) as CANONICAL - ie divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans? NO, he rejected them all in that sense - while including them in his tome as useful resources, acknowledging them as common in lectionaies (some Lutheran lectionaries to this day also include SOME of "them" - whatever "then" are). He could not be clearer when he wrote in the precise to these, " These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.”


Your point about Luther 'denouncing books that didn't agree with him", that's the entirely debunked rantings of Catholic apologist Gary Mochuta for the past decade or so. It's a very recent "fave" point of some Catholics with NOTHING to support it and everything to reject it. Don't just swallow it.



See...

https://els.org/resources/answers/apocrypha/
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/06/did-luther-accept-apocrypha-early-in.html
http://lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-luther-believe-in-apocrypha.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-luther-removed-2-maccabees-from.html




.
 
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Arsenios

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Perhaps according to YOU..... maybe......

But do many of the Orthodox Churches agree with you? Does the Anglican Church? Does the Catholic Church?

MAYBE, perhaps, in YOUR Bible, but no other.... Have you seen a Coptic Orthodox Bible? A Catholic Bible? A Reformed Bible? An Anglican Bible? If you had seen ANY bible in most of Europe would it have included all the books in the LXX? All you are doing is confirming my point: People speak of "these books" with zero consensus to what "these" even are. People tend to ASSUME what is very, very wrong - that everyone has always accepted the SAME books (even in the SAME way) when in fact that has NEVER been the case, not even close.

Are you saying that there are differing versions of the LXX according to which Church has it?

Everyone knows what the LXX is, and that it has lots of textual issues due to its age...

But it is written in Greek and apart from textual issues, that text does not have various versions...

There is only one LXX, and it has textual variants, as does the New Testament...

Manuscription is like that...

Textual variants can and do occur...

You know all this...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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I see zero evidence of that. And again, wonder if that is true by NO JEW since the First Century has accepted ANY of these whichever-they-are books. I realize SOME Christians quoted from SOME of "them" (Whichever books "them" are) but that does not mean they saw them as Scripture or inerrant or inspired or norma normans or equal to say the Epistle to the Romans.






I think you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the quote. Luther includes them in his TOME, the collection. But that does not mean he accepted it a canonical (ie, divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans) - he clearly accepted NONE of the unique "set" he (and he alone) listed as "apocrypha".

The books Luther included in his translation into German were not the LXX - FAR from that. He included books that were common in the Catholic lectionary at the time (one MORE book than the Council of Florence recognized) and he never claimed they were Scriptures in the usual sense of that. But again, his translation was NOT in any sense that of the LXX.







Wrong. 2 Maccabees is IN his German translation; in the tome. I've got it right in my copy of Luther's Bible at home. I've read it from that tome.


He never accepted ANY of these books as canonical; he shared his PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL, OPINION (very common in his day) that these his included (because they were in most of the lectionaries used in Germany in the 16th Century) that they are useful for reading but NOT canonical - not to be used as a source or norm for doctrine, not to be used for theology; not inspired, not inerrant, not the equal in every sense of say Luke or Romans. In his preface to the unique "set" Luther includes, he writes, “These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.” Again, WHICH books? Luther doesn't say why he included the ones he did, but we know they were commonly found in 16th Century lectionaries commonly used in Germany at that time.


Luther officially rejected ONE book. It's the book the Catholics mean when they insist that he "REMOVED" a book from the Bible for his German Translation. Few Catholics today actually realize what book that was because they've never seen Luther's translation Most Catholic tomes at the time had 28 books in the NT. Luther's had 27. AH, one less! The Catholic ones had the Epistle to the Leodiceans, Luther's did not. THAT'S the ONLY book Luther has "missing." The ONLY one commonly found in Catholic tomes of his day NOT found in Luther's translation. But Luther insisted he never "removed" it since it was never actually included - tomes and lectionaries back then often had additional resources in them. Friend, there could not be a preface to 2 Maccs if he didn't include it in his tome. But did he PERSONALLY, in his own OPINION accept ANY of "these" books (which ever "these" are) as CANONICAL - ie divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans? NO, he rejected them all in that sense - while including them in his tome as useful resources, acknowledging them as common in lectionaies (some Lutheran lectionaries to this day also include SOME of "them" - whatever "then" are). He could not be clearer when he wrote in the precise to these, " These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.”


Your point about Luther 'denouncing books that didn't agree with him", that's the entirely debunked rantings of Catholic apologist Gary Mochuta for the past decade or so. It's a very recent "fave" point of some Catholics with NOTHING to support it and everything to reject it. Don't just swallow it.



See...

https://els.org/resources/answers/apocrypha/
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/06/did-luther-accept-apocrypha-early-in.html
http://lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-luther-believe-in-apocrypha.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-luther-removed-2-maccabees-from.html




.
I'm not talking about New Testament writings so to compare the Septuagint pre Gospel sources (which were read by Jesus and the Apostles) to Luke or Romans is not fair.
2 of these books are wisdom books like unto proverbs, the rest are historical books like Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel, Kings, 1rst Esdras (Ezra) and Chronicles, so to claim that the Septuagint books are only good for reference could be said for the rest of these books because all of them WERE canon and early Christians accepted them as such, were our early church fathers gullible and naive for reading these books? Was Jesus in the wrong for quoting an OT passage that is only found in the Septuagint?
Do YOU actually believe that Maccabees suggest we all pray for the dead? Do you believe that we should promote the idea of having mediums raise the dead according to 1rst Samuel?
I've heard just about every protestant apologetic defending why early christians were ignorant of what they accepted as OT scripture because obviously according to historical records and letters and by Jesus witnessing to Septuagint hebrew sources -early Christians DID read these "Apocryphal" books found in the greek Septuagint.
Jesus celebrated the Maccabean Revolt based holiday and there was no such room for a Jewish holiday to be based on uninspired scripture.
Even if these Christ rejecting Jews DID finalise a revised jewish canon in 90 AD should we just toss out the NT too? Because obviously it is still NOT Jewish canon and never will be, so why did we ever forsake the Septuagint (pre Christian Jewish source) that is more accurate than the Masoretic (post Christian Jewish source)???
 
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Josiah

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Josiah said:


I see zero evidence of that. And again, wonder if that is true by NO JEW since the First Century has accepted ANY of these whichever-they-are books. I realize SOME Christians quoted from SOME of "them" (Whichever books "them" are) but that does not mean they saw them as Scripture or inerrant or inspired or norma normans or equal to say the Epistle to the Romans.






I think you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the quote. Luther includes them in his TOME, the collection. But that does not mean he accepted it a canonical (ie, divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans) - he clearly accepted NONE of the unique "set" he (and he alone) listed as "apocrypha".

The books Luther included in his translation into German were not the LXX
- FAR from that. He included books that were common in the Catholic lectionary at the time (one MORE book than the Council of Florence recognized) and he never claimed they were Scriptures in the usual sense of that. But again, his translation was NOT in any sense that of the LXX
.







Wrong. 2 Maccabees is IN his German translation; in the tome. I've got it right in my copy of Luther's Bible at home. I've read it from that tome.


He never accepted ANY of these books as canonical; he shared his PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL, OPINION (very common in his day) that these his included (because they were in most of the lectionaries used in Germany in the 16th Century) that they are useful for reading but NOT canonical - not to be used as a source or norm for doctrine, not to be used for theology; not inspired, not inerrant, not the equal in every sense of say Luke or Romans. In his preface to the unique "set" Luther includes, he writes, “These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.” Again, WHICH books? Luther doesn't say why he included the ones he did, but we know they were commonly found in 16th Century lectionaries commonly used in Germany at that time.


Luther officially rejected ONE book. It's the book the Catholics mean when they insist that he "REMOVED" a book from the Bible for his German Translation. Few Catholics today actually realize what book that was because they've never seen Luther's translation Most Catholic tomes at the time had 28 books in the NT
. Luther's had 27. AH, one less! The Catholic ones had the Epistle to the Leodiceans, Luther's did not. THAT'S the ONLY book Luther has "missing." The ONLY one commonly found in Catholic tomes of his day NOT found in Luther's translation. But Luther insisted he never "removed" it since it was never actually included - tomes and lectionaries back then often had additional resources in them. Friend, there could not be a preface to 2 Maccs if he didn't include it in his tome. But did he PERSONALLY, in his own OPINION accept ANY of "these" books (which ever "these" are) as CANONICAL - ie divinely inspired, inerrant, norma normans? NO, he rejected them all in that sense - while including them in his tome as useful resources, acknowledging them as common in lectionaies (some Lutheran lectionaries to this day also include SOME of "them" - whatever "then" are). He could not be clearer when he wrote in the precise to these, " These books are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures, and yet are useful and good for reading.”


Your point about Luther 'denouncing books that didn't agree with him", that's the entirely debunked rantings of Catholic apologist Gary Mochuta for the past decade or so. It's a very recent "fave" point of some Catholics with NOTHING to support it and everything to reject it. Don't just swallow it.



See...

https://els.org/resources/answers/apocrypha/
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspo...-early-in.html
http://lutherantheologystudygroup.bl...apocrypha.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspo...bees-from.html




.


these books


WHAT books?


all of them WERE canon and early Christians accepted them as such


Which "them?"

You haven't shown that claim to be true.



Christians DID read these "Apocryphal" books found in the greek Septuagint.

Even if you showed that to be true, it's entirely irrelevant to the thread.





.
 

Andrew

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WHAT books?





Which "them?"

You haven't shown that claim to be true.





Even if you showed that to be true, it's entirely irrelevant to the thread.





.
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
Kings 1 (1rst Samuel)
Kings 2 (2 Samuel)
Kings 3 (1 Kings)
Kings 4 (2 Kings)
Chronicles 1
Chronicles 2
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zecharias
Malachi
Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
The Song of three children
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
Maccabees 1-4
Prayer of Manasseh
 

Josiah

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Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
Kings 1 (1rst Samuel)
Kings 2 (2 Samuel)
Kings 3 (1 Kings)
Kings 4 (2 Kings)
Chronicles 1
Chronicles 2
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zecharias
Malachi
Esdras
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
The Song of three children
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
Maccabees 1-4
Prayer of Manasseh


Friend, says YOU. But is there any other than your own individual denomination (currently) that agrees with you on that list?

I take notice you left out Psalm 151, declaring it NOT to be the inerrant, divinely-inspired, norma normans.... yet it was in the LXX, so, you don't follow the LXX. So all your talk about the LXX is moot; okay, understood.

So there's YOUR list. You have very few agreeing with you.

Now, show us that every Jew and Christian accepted all these - AN NO OTHER - as the inerrent, inspired, norma normans - equal in status and identical in function with the Pentetuch and with St.Paul's Epistle to the Romans
 

Arsenios

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I take notice you left out Psalm 151, declaring it NOT to be the inerrant, divinely-inspired, norma normans....
yet it was in the LXX, so, you don't follow the LXX.

Just because it was later dropped merely makes it a textual variant...
The EOC has it, but I have never heard of your Ps. 152...
Did you make it up?
Someone might have removed 151...
We have been praying the Septuagint Psalter for 2000 years now and counting...
It is our hymnal and prayer book...
It is prayed in its entirety every week in a prescribed cycle of prayer...
I mean, you are puffing up your cheeks and trying to blow the door in on pretty small matters...
Your puffery does deflect the BASIS of your rejection of Jesus Bible...
He sure was NOT reading the Masoretic Tomb...

Arsenios


So all your talk about the LXX is moot; okay, understood.

So there's YOUR list. You have very few agreeing with you.

Now, show us that every Jew and Christian accepted all these - AN NO OTHER - as the inerrent, inspired, norma normans - equal in status and identical in function with the Pentetuch and with St.Paul's Epistle to the Romans
 
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Andrew

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Friend, says YOU. But is there any other than your own individual denomination (currently) that agrees with you on that list?

I take notice you left out Psalm 151, declaring it NOT to be the inerrant, divinely-inspired, norma normans.... yet it was in the LXX, so, you don't follow the LXX. So all your talk about the LXX is moot; okay, understood.

So there's YOUR list. You have very few agreeing with you.

Now, show us that every Jew and Christian accepted all these - AN NO OTHER - as the inerrent, inspired, norma normans - equal in status and identical in function with the Pentetuch and with St.Paul's Epistle to the Romans

I listed Psalms :)
I even added books that are already part of other books but Psalm 151 is NOT a book, you asked for BOOKS lol
Anyway I'll respond to the other question sometime later this evening
 

Andrew

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Friend, says YOU. But is there any other than your own individual denomination (currently) that agrees with you on that list?

I take notice you left out Psalm 151, declaring it NOT to be the inerrant, divinely-inspired, norma normans.... yet it was in the LXX, so, you don't follow the LXX. So all your talk about the LXX is moot; okay, understood.

So there's YOUR list. You have very few agreeing with you.

Now, show us that every Jew and Christian accepted all these - AN NO OTHER - as the inerrent, inspired, norma normans - equal in status and identical in function with the Pentetuch and with St.Paul's Epistle to the Romans
You are forgetting that the Masoretic canon is a post Septuagint and post Christian era Christ-rejecting-Jewish canon of ALL scripture. What this means is that these Jews are calling ALL New Testament books UNINSPIRED thus John the baptist NOR Jesus is even worthy enough to be called PROPHETS.
Did you know that Jerome had such a hard time hanging out with Jews in Jerusalem because their books were so different than the Christians using the Septuagint that he mingled them together? This is human error, he created a hybrid, and this hybrid was again reassembled by protestants so now we have a great confusion of what books are what and thus we side with what the post Christ Jews suggest.
There are no repercussions for reading the "Apocrypha", it does NOT change the Gospel message.
I just do not understand why pre Christian Hebrew sources that were accepted by the Jews are inferior to the post Christian Hebrew sources that reject John the Baptist and the NT, I really do not understand this at all.
I also do not believe that from the time of Moses up to 400 years prior to Jesus, God just got quiet for a while.. now before you get defensive as you have your right to be, let me give you my experience with these scriptures.
I was not raised a Protestant, I was raised Catholic, I did not care for Catholicism too much growing up. Later I became Pentecostal but they did not call them protestants either but I noticed that they had missing books.. and this confused me. Because prior to becoming a Pentecostal I was in deep study of the Scripture... All I had available to me was the Catholic bible including the "Apocrypha" but I didnt understand the meaning of that fancy looking word, so I studied all the books without distinction of or notice of "uninspired" books... It wasn't long before I upgraded that old Catholic bible from the 60s and got me a brand new shiney KJV bible with big bold letters that I realized some missing books but by that time I was highly invested in the NT side of the book and so I wasn't too concerned about it.. It wasn't until after I left the Pentecostal that I got interested again in the OT and upon investigating the disappearances of these books I found out that I had been studying "unispired, fictitious" books, and it was VERY unsettling. Turns out the more and more I investigate the more and more I realize that I'm not the only one who considered these books scripture, our for fathers of Christianity accepted these books, pre Christian Jews accepted these books, and Post Christian Jews rejected these books, and later Christians rejected these books. I learned that the Jews caused much confusion by telling Christians "no you are not reading the true bible, this is the true bible!" (excludes parts of the Septuagint, excludes the NT all together)
Now am I wrong just like my church fathers who accepted the Septuagint and who had no Masoretic?
 

NathanH83

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How can we know this for certain ? Did Jesus mention celebrating Hanukkah?


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Jesus celebrated Hanukkah.
 
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