Biblical Repentance

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Arsenios

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Nothing.
The saints of old were chosen by God's grace and given faith.
The saints today are chosen by God and given faith.
God's redemption has always been by the same promise.

OK - Let's try this differently then:

What is this "some better thing" that we have and they did not?

How are we perfect when they were not?

What do we have that they did not?

Heb 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us
should not be made perfect.



Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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OK - Let's try this differently then:

What is this "some better thing" that we have and they did not?

How are we perfect when they were not?

What do we have that they did not?

Heb 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us
should not be made perfect.



Arsenios
They had the hope of the promise in the future, provided by God's grace. We have the hope of the promise in the past, provided by God's grace.
The faith chapter, Hebrews 11, shares this beautifully.
Hebrews 11:1-40 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

God provided the promised one, Jesus, so that the Apostles saw the promise fulfilled while the saints of old only saw the hope of the promised one, Jesus. We see the promise fulfilled in Christ.
 
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Arsenios

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They had the hope of the promise in the future, provided by God's grace. We have the hope of the promise in the past, provided by God's grace.
The faith chapter, Hebrews 11, shares this beautifully.
Hebrews 11:40
And all these, though commended through their faith,
did not receive what was promised,
since God had provided something better for us,
that apart from us
they should not be made perfect.


God provided the promised one, Jesus,
so that the Apostles saw the promise fulfilled
while the saints of old only saw the hope of the promised one, Jesus.
We see the promise fulfilled in Christ.

So the Saints of old were NOT made perfect, yes?
And today's Saints ARE made perfect, yes?

So your idea that the two Salvations are the same thing cannot be true...
OTers looking forward and NTers looking backwards is not found in the Bible...
Not as a criteria of the difference in Salvation in you and me...

What does it mean to be made perfect?
That we have and the OT Saints did not?
How are we perfected as they were not?


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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So the Saints of old were NOT made perfect, yes?
And today's Saints ARE made perfect, yes?

So your idea that the two Salvations are the same thing cannot be true...
OTers looking forward and NTers looking backwards is not found in the Bible...
Not as a criteria of the difference in Salvation in you and me...

What does it mean to be made perfect?
That we have and the OT Saints did not?
How are we perfected as they were not?


Arsenios
All saints (that is ever elect and adopted child of God) from Adam to Jesus return will have been made perfect by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
Jesus fulfilled the promise for the past, the present and the future elect/adopted/saints who inherit the Kingdom.
 

Arsenios

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All saints (that is ever elect and adopted child of God) from Adam to Jesus return will have been made perfect by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
Jesus fulfilled the promise for the past, the present and the future elect/adopted/saints who inherit the Kingdom.

Are you now perfect?

You see, Scripture records that "apart from us they should not be made perfect"...

So that WITH us, they should indeed be made perfect...

So what does "being made perfect" mean?

It does not say that without Christ's Crucifixion they should not be made perfect...

It just says "apart from us" (God would not perfect them)...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Are you now perfect?

You see, Scripture records that "apart from us they should not be made perfect"...

So that WITH us, they should indeed be made perfect...

So what does "being made perfect" mean?

It does not say that without Christ's Crucifixion they should not be made perfect...

It just says "apart from us" (God would not perfect them)...


Arsenios
Already...not yet.
Before the throne of God I am seen in Christ who is perfect. Through this link in Christ I am made perfect.
Yet, I still live in this corrupt she'll filled with flaws.
Already...not yet, Arsenios.
Does this confuse you?
 

Arsenios

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Already...not yet.
Before the throne of God I am seen in Christ who is perfect. Through this link in Christ I am made perfect.
Yet, I still live in this corrupt she'll filled with flaws.
Already...not yet, Arsenios.
Does this confuse you?

No confusion - We have used that formulaic for 2000 years describing Salvation...

But not perfecting...

So Christ is perfect, yes?
And you are not...
But God only sees you in Christ, yes?
And He sees not imperfection which exist in you...

I have never read this in the Bible...

So this is the difference between Christians and OT Jews?

God sees their imperfections...

But He does not see yours?


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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God sees all my wickedness. But, Christ's righteousness is imputed to me by grace.
 

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Our imperfections is what makes us humble in the eyes of the Lord, we lie if we say we are perfect and as long as we can forgive others who trespass against us the Father will forgive us our trespasses! Forgiveness!! :)
 

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Imputed Righteousness is to get us started. Actual Righteousness (our works, our behavior) is what God will judge us by in that Day.

"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." - 1John 3:7

May have already shared in this growing thread, but it is worth understanding how God views righteousness.

God's wisdom to all.

:ange06:

https://youtu.be/S4VRby3_TVM
 

Lamb

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Imputed Righteousness is to get us started. Actual Righteousness (our works, our behavior) is what God will judge us by in that Day.

If you believe that you are clothed in Christ's righteousness by your baptism you would know that the judgment of you will be marked as not guilty because of Jesus alone. Not your works.
 

Michael

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If you believe that you are clothed in Christ's righteousness by your baptism you would know that the judgment of you will be marked as not guilty because of Jesus alone. Not your works.

I know that is what is taught in many modern churches; but I've found to adhere to such a doctrine I'd have to dismiss the bulk of the New Testament. And that I cannot do.

It is "according to our works" that Jesus will recompense each one in that Day.

He said. I believe it. That settles it.

And so, as the Apostle Paul, I press on that I might not be "disqualified" because of "disobedience."

May the Lord open the eyes of us all, to truly "understand the Scripture."

Peace & Blessings.
 

Michael

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I did a follow up teaching on 1John 3, as it seems so few are familiar with what the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostle concerning the absolute necessity of actual Righteousness in the "believer" if we are to obtain the promises of God in Rev 2 & 3.

https://youtu.be/Pdd27HXBdBk
 

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I know that is what is taught in many modern churches; but I've found to adhere to such a doctrine I'd have to dismiss the bulk of the New Testament. And that I cannot do.

It is "according to our works" that Jesus will recompense each one in that Day.

He said. I believe it. That settles it.

And so, as the Apostle Paul, I press on that I might not be "disqualified" because of "disobedience."

May the Lord open the eyes of us all, to truly "understand the Scripture."

Peace & Blessings.

You are the one dismissing what the New Testament AND the Gospel states concerning Jesus who is the Christ. How can you say that you are preaching Christ when you really are only preaching works for eternal life with God which the New Testament condemns? You have no peace when you look to yourself because your righteousness is from Jesus, not from yourself:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

1 Corinthians 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
 

Michael

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You are the one dismissing what the New Testament AND the Gospel states concerning Jesus who is the Christ. How can you say that you are preaching Christ when you really are only preaching works for eternal life with God which the New Testament condemns? You have no peace when you look to yourself because your righteousness is from Jesus, not from yourself:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

1 Corinthians 1:30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Amen. I stand on each of these verses. And each one of them easily fits what I teach. Romans 3 and Gal 2 in particular, as Paul is speaking of the righteousness that came from following the regulations & ordinances of the Law of Moses (which I have never taught we are to keep). Indeed that cannot save us. But the bulk of Paul's letters (which were all written to 'saved' people) addresses the actual "righteousness" of behavior that is commanded by God and absolutely required if we are to obtain the promises of God to "those who overcome" in Revelation 2 & 3.

And we know from the Bible alone that Jesus judges & rewards no one by their belief or statement of faith. ONLY by our works, our deeds, our behavior as we see throughout the Scripture, both Old and New Testaments (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, and Rev 22:12 among many others.)

I'm really coming to like the "recipe" analogy that God gave me. If we are missing even a couple ingredients, that cake will not come out as it is supposed to. Truly, we cannot grasp "some" of God's Word, while neglecting major portions of it.
 

MennoSota

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Amen. I stand on each of these verses. And each one of them easily fits what I teach. Romans 3 and Gal 2 in particular, as Paul is speaking of the righteousness that came from following the regulations & ordinances of the Law of Moses (which I have never taught we are to keep). Indeed that cannot save us. But the bulk of Paul's letters (which were all written to 'saved' people) addresses the actual "righteousness" of behavior that is commanded by God and absolutely required if we are to obtain the promises of God to "those who overcome" in Revelation 2 & 3.

And we know from the Bible alone that Jesus judges & rewards no one by their belief or statement of faith. ONLY by our works, our deeds, our behavior as we see throughout the Scripture, both Old and New Testaments (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12, and Rev 22:12 among many others.)

I'm really coming to like the "recipe" analogy that God gave me. If we are missing even a couple ingredients, that cake will not come out as it is supposed to. Truly, we cannot grasp "some" of God's Word, while neglecting major portions of it.
Your recipe is from hell, Michael, not from God.
 

Arsenios

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How can you say that you are preaching Christ when
you really are only preaching works
for eternal life with God
which the New Testament condemns?

He is preaching obedience to Christ...
Which you call "only works"...
A harsh judgmentalism...
Of the preaching of obedience to God...

Christ lived His whole Life...
In obedience to God...
Michael preaches obedience to God...
And you call him a false teacher...

We live in a free country...
You are free to scorn obedience to God...
You are free to judge its preachers...
While our children are walking away from their Churches...

On a more practical note:

A monk also asked St. Sisoes:
"How can I attain humility?"

The saint replied:
"When someone learns to acknowledge
every man as being better than himself,
then he has attained humility."



Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Your recipe is from hell, Michael, not from God.

Always good to see you sharing your Oh So Christian Sentiments, Menno...

Your voice is getting gravelly and tinny these days...

A man of accusations and condemnations to the core...

Always quick to condemn those who disagree with you...

Have you considered a career with ANTIFA???

Demons disciple accusation...

But you know that already, don't you??

At least you show us the FRUITS of your doctrines...

eg Accusations and condemnations...


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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You have no peace when you look to yourself...

Did Michael say that?

Or is it just you, Lamm?

Did Michael say he looks to himself for Peace?

Or did he say he finds Peace in Obedience to God?

You and Menno are getting kinda freaky here...


Arsenios
 
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