Biblical Repentance

[NewCreation435]

i am reopening this thread for discussion. Please stick to the topic

 

[Michael]

so many are challenging your theology because of how obviously lacking it is to most everyone else but your pride won't let you see anything that anyone shares with you.

Thank you for your reply and concern. However the Scripture backs up my theology completely, as is evident in the multitude of passages I have referenced in the 4 videos. And I have often addressed the points of view of others when presented in a mature manner, and have showed how the verses they quoted fit in perfectly with the doctrine I adhere to.

I have asked for anyone to use the passages I have taught from to show another point of view, for I am always open to glean something new from God's Word. As yet, no one has accepted the challenge.

Jesus declared the need for repentance clearly in His earthly ministry, from the very first, echoing the Word God gave John the Baptist to cry out - "the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1:15
And we notice that even here, the command to "repent" comes before "believe." (For those sticklers of the order of things in the Bible )

I truly shudder to think that what Jesus taught here in Luke 13 about having to 'turn away form sin' is never mentioned from the pulpits here in America today, when it is just as vital and True as the popular verses so often quoted to put church-goers at ease.

"There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” - Luke 13:1-5

The word "perish" here is identical to the word "perish" in John 3:16. So when we receive the whole of Jesus teaching, we find undoubtedly that to "believe" alone is not enough; "repentance" is just as necessary if we are not to "perish" (be utterly ruined) in that Day.
These are not my words, my friend, but the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ. Can we really refute them? If Luke 13:5 can somehow be dismissed, while John 3:16 favored, then we do not "believe" ALL of what Jesus taught; and a True Disciple is one who embraces ALL of their Masters instruction without question. Jesus said it; that settle it; it IS True.

 

[NewCreation435]

Thank you for your reply and concern. However the Scripture backs up my theology completely, as is evident in the multitude of passages I have referenced in the 4 videos. And I have often addressed the points of view of others when presented in a mature manner, and have showed how the verses they quoted fit in perfectly with the doctrine I adhere to.

I have asked for anyone to use the passages I have taught from to show another point of view, for I am always open to glean something new from God's Word. As yet, no one has accepted the challenge.

Jesus declared the need for repentance clearly in His earthly ministry, from the very first, echoing the Word God gave John the Baptist to cry out - "the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1:15
And we notice that even here, the command to "repent" comes before "believe." (For those sticklers of the order of things in the Bible )

I truly shudder to think that what Jesus taught here in Luke 13 about having to 'turn away form sin' is never mentioned from the pulpits here in America today, when it is just as vital and True as the popular verses so often quoted to put church-goers at ease.

"There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” - Luke 13:1-5

The word "perish" here is identical to the word "perish" in John 3:16. So when we receive the whole of Jesus teaching, we find undoubtedly that to "believe" alone is not enough; "repentance" is just as necessary if we are not to "perish" (be utterly ruined) in that Day.
These are not my words, my friend, but the Word of our Lord Jesus Christ. Can we really refute them? If Luke 13:5 can somehow be dismissed, while John 3:16 favored, then we do not "believe" ALL of what Jesus taught; and a True Disciple is one who embraces ALL of their Masters instruction without question. Jesus said it; that settle it; it IS True.

that's true that in many American churches the word "repent" is hardly ever thought of or used. I think a lot of pastors are going to have to answer for that when they are held accountable for their teaching

 

[Michael]

that's true that in many American churches the word "repent" is hardly ever thought of or used. I think a lot of pastors are going to have to answer for that when they are held accountable for their teaching

Amen.

That is why I aim to ever be Truthful is what I teach. As James wrote - "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." (Jam 3:1)

There is a romance to ministry that many desire, and get into without having been called of the Lord. The Lord God speaks of this in His Word and warns His people specifically not to listen to those behind the pulpits who preach that there is no need for real Repentance and that God will love us anyway even if we continue to slip up -

"Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You shall have peace” ’;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
‘No evil shall come upon you.’ ”

18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?"
- Jer 23:16-18

How many preachers & pastors today have truly heard the Lord telling them what to teach? Is the Lord God instructing them to tell His people not to worry because they are 'saved' and He sees them through Christ? Or is He telling them to counsel His people to "repent" and "walk worthy" that they may inherit His promises given only to "those who overcome"?

“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings." (caused them to repent)
- Jer 23:21-22

But Praise His Name, His Truth will always come forth. Indeed His promise is to bring to His Elect those who will indeed preach Truth and impart instruction that if followed will bring Life.

"I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord." - Jer 23:4

Amen.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus declared the need for repentance clearly in His earthly ministry, from the very first, echoing the Word God gave John the Baptist to cry out - "the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1:15
And we notice that even here, the command to "repent" comes before "believe." (For those sticklers of the order of things in the Bible )

.... they abusing the Word of God to support their works righteousness theology.

The word for "and" (kai) just means "and." It is THE most generic, general connecting word in all of the Greek language. It just means "and." It just connects. It's the word in the verse you quoted.

There are words that mean "then" (epeita or the conjunction oun being the most common) and mean sequence, but there are Christians who just delete the word the Holy Spirit placed in the verse and substitute a different one in order to force sequence into the verse, changing the Greek word from "and" to "then" in order to support their dogma that we are saved by our works, by what we do. Very disrespectful. And dishonest. And abusive. I'm sure most laity are just echoing what their preachers tell them, but the preachers KNOW they are CHANGING what the Holy Spirit said... and know why, to support their synergism, their "works righteousness" theology.

I truly shudder to think that what Jesus taught here in Luke 13 about having to 'turn away form sin' is never mentioned from the pulpits here in America today

Perhaps you're visiting the wrong churches? It's stressed in Lutheran churches. It was in my former Catholic Church, too. In fact in both, you can't get 3 minutes into a worship service without a bold emphasis on just this.



.

 

[Michael]

Perhaps you're visiting the wrong churches? It's stressed in Lutheran churches. It was in my former Catholic Church, too. In fact in both, you can't get 3 minutes into a worship service without a bold emphasis on just this.

.

Do they stress that their congregants actually strive against sin even to the shedding of their own blood, knowing that they will be held accountable for their sins in the Day they stand before the Lord, as the Scripture teaches?

I was actually raised in the Catholic religion and have visited Lutheran churches over the years around this country. (as well as many other Orthodox, Evangelical, Pentecostal and Jewish Messianic congregations).
These do sometimes speak about righteousness, and perhaps 'dong penance', or confessing to a priest; but that is not Biblical Repentance, which is an actual "turning away from sin." The teaching that God has commanded us to "stop sinning" is very rarely taught. So many preach that either God doesn't see our sins anymore if we've 'accepted Christ', or we're in some sort of state of 'eternal forgiveness.' Such doctrine is foreign to the canon of Scripture.

Biblical Repentance is NOT merely a 'changing our way of thinking' as so many mistakenly preach today. If we are not actually "resisting even to bloodshed, striving against sin" then we have not really walking in the "repentance" that God requires of those He has called. That is clear Bible. And the fruit of it will be known. I've heard many say they have or are living a life of repentance, yet much carnal behavior still goes on in their lives. True Repentance is visible to men and to God by actual changed behavior in the "believer."

"Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance." - Matt 3:8

 

[MennoSota]

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[Arsenios]

True repentance is to never commit the same sin again...

Struggling in repentance against a sin is a good thing...

Sins are overcome one at a time...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The word for "and" (kai) just means "and."
It is THE most generic, general connecting word in all of the Greek language.
It just means "and."
It just connects.
It's the word in the verse you quoted.

Josiah my Friend...

The Greek word KAI does indeed, as you say, mean AND...
However is has another meaning in the passage mentioned...
That meaning is ALSO...
Those whom God foreknew, these ALSO He Called...
And it does indeed entail sequencing...

We are Foreknown..
Then we are Called...
Then we are Justified...
Then we are Glorified...
All done by God and not by man...

We are Called too repentance...
We are Justified by Baptism into Christ...
We are Glorified as we are perfected in the Faith...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Josiah my Friend...

The Greek word KAI does indeed, as you say, mean AND...
However is has another meaning in the passage mentioned...
That meaning is ALSO...
Those whom God foreknew, these ALSO He Called...

Agreed; the word can mean "also."

But it does not mean "then". "Also" does not mean "after that." Those that delete the word "kai" and substitute the word "oun" in order to support their "works-righteousness" theology and denouncing of Jesus as the Savior are trashing Scripture. Some laity are doing this innocently (just parroting their preachers) but the preachers KNOW they are trashing Scripture - and why.




.

 

[Michael]

Biblical Repentance (what this thread is about)

Dear saints, let's remember that in the end, only the Word of God will stand.

Many have attempted to counter me with 'religious quotes' and the "traditions of man" that have arisen in the churches over the centuries... but in the end ONLY what the Scripture declares will stand.

The Lord God has called us to "turn from our wicked ways", and had confirmed His Word through Christ Jesus, the Apostles and Prophets.
May we truly "believe" what God has said, and be counted among those who truly "abide in Him."

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom & Understanding to all,
Michael

https://youtu.be/vBpcQnWbIFM

 

[Arsenios]

Agreed; the word can mean "also."

But it does not mean "then". "Also" does not mean "after that." Those that delete the word "kai" and substitute the word "oun" in order to support their "works-righteousness" theology and denouncing of Jesus as the Savior are trashing Scripture. Some laity are doing this innocently (just parroting their preachers) but the preachers KNOW they are trashing Scripture - and why.

That is a perfectly natural read of this passage, for it is temporally charged, beginning with "Those whom He foreknew, these also He Called..."

That is a sequential pair of verbs...

The rest grammatically CAN be sequential, and are interpreted as sequential by the Church...

Because each sets the stage for the next action by God...

And as a normal series, they ARE sequential...

And there CAN be exceptions...

Glorification normally comes AFTER Justification...

Justification normally follows being Called...

Being Called is preceded by God's foreknowing the one He Calls...

I mean, you can't really have a big bloody beef with someone for thinking they ARE sequential, can you?


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

Among my greatest influences, Dr. Robert B Thompson preached on Righteousness, Repentance and the Goal of our God for Creation for 42 years in SoCal, and the Word Gave gave him has gone out across the globe through the radio, TV, books and essays for many years.
Here is Thompson preaching from Jerusalem in the 80's, sharing the Truth of God concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, and confirming much of what I've spoken of here in this thread on Biblical Repentance and the Righteousness God requires of us if we are to enter into Union with Christ and God. -

https://youtu.be/Y9KtB-g0zt4

 

[Arsenios]

Among my greatest influences, Dr. Robert B Thompson preached on Righteousness, Repentance and the Goal of our God for Creation for 42 years in SoCal, and the Word Gave gave him has gone out across the globe through the radio, TV, books and essays for many years.
Here is Thompson preaching from Jerusalem in the 80's, sharing the Truth of God concerning the Feast of Tabernacles, and confirming much of what I've spoken of here in this thread on Biblical Repentance and the Righteousness God requires of us if we are to enter into Union with Christ and God. -

https://youtu.be/Y9KtB-g0zt4

I made it half way through the video, Michael...
I could do no more...
Silence and prayer are the Treasury of an Orthodox Christian...


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

I made it half way through the video, Michael...
I could do no more...
Silence and prayer are the Treasury of an Orthodox Christian...

Arsenios

The Truth Dr. Thompson preached is not for all. God has called a remnant to follow Jesus into Tabernacles.
It is truly a "narrow path." There are others who have known and revealed the plan and purpose of God. Yet, as the Prophets and Apostles - who preached (and often shouted and wailed!) - these are shunned or ignored by the most.

Indeed there is a time to "be still and know that He is God" and we are to "pray without ceasing"; but we are also in a battle, and as Jacob "wrestled with God" and had his name changed, it is those "take (the Kingdom) by force", "wrestling against the principalities, powers and rulers of darkness in the heavenlies"and "striving against sin to the shedding of their own blood" that will receive the "Crown of Life" in the Day and be given a "new name" that is eternal.

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” - Rev 3:12-13

Amen.

 

[Arsenios]

Here is the issue:

The OT Saints knew God...
We are NT Christians...

What do we have that the OT Saints did not?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Here is the issue:

The OT Saints knew God...
We are NT Christians...

What do we have that the OT Saints did not?


Arsenios

Nothing.
The saints of old were chosen by God's grace and given faith. The saints today are chosen by God and given faith. God's redemption has always been by the same promise.

 

[Michael]

Here is the issue:

The OT Saints knew God...
We are NT Christians...

What do we have that the OT Saints did not?

Arsenios

This is a more complex question than we realize.

I'll share what Paul said here before I get an further into it, for the Lord has led me to spend extensive time in this portion of Scripture...

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." - 1Cor 10:1-4

 

[Arsenios]

This is a more complex question than we realize.

I'll share what Paul said here before I get an further into it, for the Lord has led me to spend extensive time in this portion of Scripture...

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." - 1Cor 10:1-4

Well, Menno thinks that a person has a Spiritual experience and is Saved in it, and he calls it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

This is what the Old Testament Saints knew as well...

They did NOT call it the Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

Like Menno, they did call it Salvation...

I call it Salvation too...

Yet what we have as NT Christians is something radically more than this...

What is it that we have and the OT Saints did not?

A very simple question, yes?

Certainly one every Christian should know immediately, yes?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

The saints of old were chosen by God's grace and given faith. The saints today are chosen by God and given faith. God's redemption has always been by the same promise.

I agree.....

The saints of the OT had faith that trusted in the Messiah who would come.... the saints of today have faith in the Messiah who did come..... same/same (and in both cases, only those who existed in a very brief time period actually physically met Him so we 're all working on trust in the Gospel).

I find it very likely that faith has ALWAYS been the gift of God. And that it's ALWAYS to be accompanied by repentance, humility, holiness/perfection, love, obedience, etc.

I also find it likely that in the OT, IF one was absolutely morally PERFECT and divinely HOLY in thought, word and deed.... in things done and not done... from the moment of conception to death.... then they'd need no mercy or salvation (they met the Law). But I find it likely none have ever done that, the Law not being achieveable after the Fall. Thus, the key point of God's mercy and Savior is central, whether the gift of faith looks forward in time or back in time, either way embracing the Gospel.