Why did Jesus have to die?

[Bluezone777]

He wasn't disguised as it was the people who were simply blind to who He was. They had in their minds of an image of a warrior and king not a lowly servant which is why they never noticed Him. Jews in the time of Jesus kept meticulous records and they could trace Jesus's lineage all the way back so they had no dispute that he came from the line of David which was a requirement of the messiah among others. We today don't keep such good records of lineage so we would have had genuine reason to distrust someone's claim of their lineage if Jesus came at a different time.

If you truly believe he was on a covert mission than why did he purposefully expose his true identity to the woman at the well?

 

[Arsenios]

There was no disguise. Jesus is the promised one. He came. He did what God promised. No human thwarted God's plan. No human "found him out" in his covert mission. Your narrative is so man-centered, Arsenios.

He even queried His disciples: "Who do people SAY that I am?"
And He muzzled demons from telling everyone Who He was...
And He told people NOT to reveal Who had healed them...
His ministry was one of progressively less and less concealment...

Once, about to be hurled to His death,
He simply walked back through the crowd,
so common was His appearance...

It can be seen, btw, in the holographic image on the Shroud of Turin...
I used to think it was a Roman Catholic fake...
Until I learned it was stolen in the 4th Crusade from the Orthodox Christians...
THEN I thought: "Maybe..."

But that holographic image is the clincher!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

He even queried His disciples: "Who do people SAY that I am?"
And He muzzled demons from telling everyone Who He was...
And He told people NOT to reveal Who had healed them...
His ministry was one of progressively less and less concealment...

Once, about to be hurled to His death,
He simply walked back through the crowd,
so common was His appearance...

It can be seen, btw, in the holographic image on the Shroud of Turin...
I used to think it was a Roman Catholic fake...
Until I learned it was stolen in the 4th Crusade from the Orthodox Christians...
THEN I thought: "Maybe..."

But that holographic image is the clincher!


Arsenios

He was known by every person of the promise. He is still known by every person of the promise.

 

[Andrew]

Actually, there is less historical support for Muhammad than for Jesus. From a historical standing, Jesus is the best recorded figure in all ancient history. It is remarkably well documented.

I'm talking outside the Holy Books, I agree that many Jews and even atheist recognize Jesus as an actual person who existed but don't believe he was anyone divinely special, but there is more historical records of Muhammed military crusades and known 7th century records of him, Jesus had about 3 or so mentions in historical text (outside scripture), he was just a lowly man at the time who only a few people wrote about.. perhaps a side discussion? I may create a thread about this in the near future

 

[Andrew]

He was known by every person of the promise. He is still known by every person of the promise.

Agree, but "historical" doesn't necessarily mean 'all ye faithful' by a long shot

 

[Arsenios]

He wasn't disguised as it was the people who were simply blind to who He was. They had in their minds of an image of a warrior and king not a lowly servant which is why they never noticed Him. Jews in the time of Jesus kept meticulous records and they could trace Jesus's lineage all the way back so they had no dispute that he came from the line of David which was a requirement of the messiah among others. We today don't keep such good records of lineage so we would have had genuine reason to distrust someone's claim of their lineage if Jesus came at a different time.

If you truly believe he was on a covert mission than why did he purposefully expose his true identity to the woman at the well?

Photini was an "Equal to the Apostles" person for the Samarians - Evangellizing the Faith to them and beyond... And they had no dealings with the Jews, being Samarians... So it was not a major disclosure... How late in His ministry was that encounter?

The only bio we have of Him as a Child is His encounter as a 12 year old in the Temple talking with the Elders...
Giving His mother much grief...
And He went back into concealment after that, if only because nothing is recorded...
John is the only one who might have been privy to His early life, having the care of His Mother...

And John did not write a whole lot about it...

But Scripture tells us that Christians are "Hidden in Christ"... And in order for this to happen, Christ had to have walked hidden Himself... And He did, until the time was right for Him to appear to all and be crucified... The same is true for His Martyrs later, hidden under persecutions, until accused or caught, then openly confessing Christ and being killed in various rather horrific ways...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I'm talking outside the Holy Books, I agree that many Jews and even atheist recognize Jesus as an actual person who existed but don't believe he was anyone divinely special, but there is more historical records of Muhammed military crusades and known 7th century records of him, Jesus had about 3 or so mentions in historical text (outside scripture), he was just a lowly man at the time who only a few people wrote about.. perhaps a side discussion? I may create a thread about this in the near future

All the information about Muhammad is over 200 years after his death. There are stories passed by word of mouth, but no documented information from the time he lived.

 

[Andrew]

All the information about Muhammad is over 200 years after his death. There are stories passed by word of mouth, but no documented information from the time he lived.

Turns out those crusades of Islam were not islamic at all but were slapped with that label later on, interesting.. wikipedia always made it out to have reliable sources citing the historical accuracy of the prophet as fact but I've been getting very skeptical of all these "fact checker" sites lately..
Have you heard of this book?
Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam's Obscure Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/161017061X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_49xuDbEZAZBTB

 

[MennoSota]

Turns out those crusades of Islam were not islamic at all but were slapped with that label later on, interesting.. wikipedia always made it out to have reliable sources citing the historical accuracy of the prophet as fact but I've been getting very skeptical of all these "fact checker" sites lately..
Have you heard of this book?
Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam's Obscure Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/161017061X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_49xuDbEZAZBTB

Read Nabeel Quereshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" as well as "No God but One."
Nabeel was a practicing Muslim and did extensive research into the life of Jesus and Muhammad. He lays out the history and the lack of documentation.

 

[hobie]

Turns out those crusades of Islam were not islamic at all but were slapped with that label later on, interesting.. wikipedia always made it out to have reliable sources citing the historical accuracy of the prophet as fact but I've been getting very skeptical of all these "fact checker" sites lately..
Have you heard of this book?
Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam's Obscure Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/161017061X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_49xuDbEZAZBTB

And yet we have One who loves us and that has the gift of eternal life, and the other just seems to instill hate and terrorism.

 

[Andrew]

And yet we have One who loves us and that has the gift of eternal life, and the other just seems to instill hate and terrorism.

Yep, and if Muhammed did exist he is dead bones in a grave, Jesus is alive and gives eternal life.

 

[Arsenios]

He was known by every person of the promise. He is still known by every person of the promise.

He was sure known by all the demons He cast out...

He had to muzzle them to keep them from blowing His camouflage...

Concealing the God-man on earth is no small matter!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

He was sure known by all the demons He cast out...

He had to muzzle them to keep them from blowing His camouflage...

Concealing the God-man on earth is no small matter!


Arsenios

You love to completely miss the point and twist.
It is obvious you have no understanding of the scriptures when God tells us about the people of the promise. I cannot assist you with your ignorance of scripture, Arsenios.