Are babies sinners?

[Josiah]

You quote post 7.

At your request....

Sin/Sinner


A "sinner" by definition is one who falls short, who misses the target. It's what the very word means.

In the ancient Greek olympics, if an athlete archer missed the bullseye, he "sinned"

One who is not a sinner, perfectly hits the target always, perpetually.



What is the target?

Essentially, that our character and actions be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

To the question: Does a newborn hit the bullseye in all these (and more) - always? Do they do all the above? Perfectly, perpetually, always without exception or fault? In their thoughts, words and deeds?

Do they do so UNTIL they celebrate a certain birthday, and then, as a function of that birthday, suddenly fail to be perfect?




What Does the BIBLE state?


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth."

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of people's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all people for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 5:17-18

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



There's NOTHING in Scripture that says, "But those under the age of X cannot sin cuz they are equal to God."

There's also no verse that says, "When one celebrates their Xth birthday, they FALL from being perfect and divine in thought, word and deed - and at that moment, start to fall short in fulfilling the Law."


Consider Romans 6:23 "For the result of sin is death." IF those prior to celebrating their Xth birthday have no sin, then none under that age would die.

And the way to be sure all people go to heaven would be to kill them the day before they celebrate their Xth birthday.





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[MennoSota]

At your request....







[/SIZE]
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You forgot this part.
Specifically, address each verse and tell me why it relates to the human condition at birth and why it justifies you baptizing the infant.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,

I gave Scripture.

If you want to discuss the Anabaptist invention of Credobaptism, you do know there are threads for that and I'd ask you to READ the title of this thread.

IF you want to discuss the Anabaptist invention of "Age Requirement Baptism" you know there are threads for that and I'd ask you to READ the title of this thread.

I do NOT dogmatically accept that people are perfect until they experience their Xth birthday because no one has shown that Scripture teaches that (or even tried to). And of course, I don 't accept your mandate that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING said or claimed is automatically a dogmatic fact unless someone can PROVE it false, so the reality that no one has PROVEN your dogma specifically false is irrelevant. No one has proven that there are not 12 flying purple people eaters hiding on Mars either, that reality doesn't mean it thus remains a dogmatic fact.

And I do NOT accept that the Bible mandates that one must verbally and publicly prove in chronological time FIRST that they have chosen Jesus as their personal Savior before the prohibition to baptize is lifted and that one may be baptized; all other baptisms are heretical, invalid and prohibited because I've not seen the verse that so indicates. There ARE verses that say to go and baptize, but I have yet to see the any dogmatic requirements about age, height, race, hair-color, weight, shoe size, or any other group of humans specifically forbidden and excluded from the command; nothing about "but if you baptize THOSE, you are sinning and causing them to be unable to repent." THAT'S why I don't accept that new invention of a 16th Century radical synergist; who by the way never even claimed Scripture taught what he invented, he ONLY claimed that his invention fit his radical synergism.

 

[tango]

Baptism gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit and in baptism we are given faith. That's why you shouldn't doubt that God can do His job in baptizing a baby...it's His work, not something you can do to yourself.

We can baptise a baby, but what of those before birth? If a child is sinful from conception does that mean a stillborn child or an aborted fetus dies in sin and is therefore condemned, even though they never had any chance to repent of their sin? If a child is sinful from the moment they are conceived, what of the conceived embryo that fails to implant into the uterus - does the mother's body not giving it a host result in it dying in its sinfulness?

If the conditions above don't result in a child dying in their sin, at what point is a child responsible? The groups that baptise babies typically don't do so for at least the first couple of weeks.

 

[Albion]

“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” (Romans 5:17–18).

 

[Josiah]

Sin/Sinner


A "sinner" by definition is one who falls short, who misses the target. It's what the very word means.

In the olympics, if an athlete archer missed the bullseye, he "sinned"

One who is not a sinner, perfectly hits the target always, perpetually.



What is the target?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

To the question: Does a newborn hit the bullseye? Do they do all the above? Perfectly, perpetually, always without exception? In their thoughts, words and deeds?




What Does the BIBLE state?


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth."

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of people's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all people for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 5:17-18

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



There's NOTHING in Scripture that says, "But those under the age of X cannot sin cuz they are equal to God."

There's also no verse that says, "When one celebrates their Xth birthday, they FALL from being perfect and divine in thought, word and deed - and at that moment, start to fall short in fulfilling the Law."


Consider Romans 6:23 "For the result of sin is death." IF those prior to celebrating their Xth birthday have no sin, then none under that age would die.

And the way to be sure all people go to heaven would be to kill them the day before they celebrate their Xth birthday.





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MennoSota,

I look to all the above Scriptures on the one hand...

Then I look to all the Scriptures that dogmatically speak of birthdays and a specific age in connection to being perfect or sinful (hitting or missing the target), I look for the verse that conveys, "BEFORE one has their Xth birthday, they are without sin and always in all thing hit the bullseye and have nothing to forgive, no need for grace or mercy or salvation... BUT at noon on that brithday, as a function OF that day, bingo - they become sinners who miss the mark." Looking for something that says that in the Bible... something that radically counters all the Scriptures above and makes the whole point the issue of AGE and a certain birthday. But I don't see it. And so far, you haven't presented it.

THAT and if that view was true, well.... no one would die before that birthday. And probably the best and easiest way for God to get all to heaven is just have everyone die at 11:59 AM on the day of that birthday. No need for Jesus.

Well... and I have a 15 month old son. And I can ASSURE you, he sins. Sometimes VERY intentionally and knowingly. Looking at me. With a smile on his face. I just don't buy that he is as perfect as God, as holy as the Lord, with the same attitude that Jesus had, NEVER thinking or saying or doing ANYTHING variant to how Jesus does. I don't buy it. As a parent.



- Josiah





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[MennoSota]

MennoSota,

I look to all the above Scriptures on the one hand...

Then I look to all the Scriptures that dogmatically speak of birthdays and a specific age in connection to being perfect or sinful (hitting or missing the target), I look for the verse that conveys, "BEFORE one has their Xth birthday, they are without sin and always in all thing hit the bullseye and have nothing to forgive, no need for grace or mercy or salvation... BUT at noon on that brithday, as a function OF that day, bingo - they become sinners who miss the mark." Looking for something that says that in the Bible... something that radically counters all the Scriptures above and makes the whole point the issue of AGE and a certain birthday. But I don't see it. And so far, you haven't presented it.

THAT and if that view was true, well.... no one would die before that birthday. And probably the best and easiest way for God to get all to heaven is just have everyone die at 11:59 AM on the day of that birthday. No need for Jesus.



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No you don't. You look to your church dogma and try to find verses that will support your church dogma.
When others share scripture without reference to a church denomination, you look for ways to make it about church dogma and not about the Bible. It is your M.O.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

MennoSota,

I look to all the above Scriptures on the one hand...

Then I look to all the Scriptures that dogmatically speak of birthdays and a specific age in connection to being perfect or sinful (hitting or missing the target), I look for the verse that conveys, "BEFORE one has their Xth birthday, they are without sin and always in all thing hit the bullseye and have nothing to forgive, no need for grace or mercy or salvation... BUT at noon on that brithday, as a function OF that day, bingo - they become sinners who miss the mark." Looking for something that says that in the Bible... something that radically counters all the Scriptures above and makes the whole point the issue of AGE and a certain birthday. But I don't see it. And so far, you haven't presented it.

THAT and if that view was true, well.... no one would die before that birthday. And probably the best and easiest way for God to get all to heaven is just have everyone die at 11:59 AM on the day of that birthday. No need for Jesus.



And well... and I have a 15 month old son. And I can ASSURE you, he sins. Sometimes VERY intentionally and knowingly. Looking at me. With a smile on his face. I just don't buy that he is as perfect as God, as holy as the Lord, with the same attitude that Jesus had, NEVER thinking or saying or doing ANYTHING variant to how Jesus does. I don't buy it. As a parent.



- Josiah



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No you don't.
.

READ what you quoted.


When you bother to share Scriptures that state my son does not think, say or do ANYTHING variant to what God does... that says he ALWAYS totally and perfectly "hits the mark" in his attitude, his actions.... then post it. Simple. So far, you've only quoted one verse, one that seems to deny this radical change that happens because of a birthday anniversary.

And post the verse that states something about a birthday and a certain age in connection to being perfect then suddenly not.

And post why God takes the life of people who have no sin? Because the bible specifically states that for people, "the result of sin is death" and we all know God at times takes the life of people even before they are born, so that must be before this not stated birthday where suddenly that person first has sin.

If you are going to quote the post, ADDRESS the points.



- Josiah


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[Albion]

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." (Psalm 58:3)

 

[Josiah]

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." (Psalm 58:3)

Thanks! I hope you don't object, I'll edit my post to include that (cuz I didn't know about that one; obviously relevant)

 

[tango]

“For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” (Romans 5:17–18).

Condemnation of all men still needs to be taken in the context that the OT law provided for sacrifices to wash away the sins of the people. And obviously we accept that Jesus' sacrifice washed away our sins so we don't have to keep taking pigeons to the priest like they did in the days of ancient Israel.

But if we want to say that "one act of righteousness resulted justification of life to all men" does that mean all are justified? If so you've just made a solid case for universalism. If not we're no further forward.

 

[tango]

READ what you quoted.


When you bother to share Scriptures that state my son does not think, say or do ANYTHING variant to what God does... that says he ALWAYS totally and perfectly "hits the mark" in his attitude, his actions.... then post it. Simple. So far, you've only quoted one verse, one that seems to deny this radical change that happens because of a birthday anniversary.

And post the verse that states something about a birthday and a certain age in connection to being perfect then suddenly not.

And post why God takes the life of people who have no sin? Because the bible specifically states that for people, "the result of sin is death" and we all know God at times takes the life of people even before they are born, so that must be before this not stated birthday where suddenly that person first has sin.




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I'm on my tablet at the moment so looking up the precise Scripture is kinda tedious. The NT refers to the notion that knowledge of the law condemns, in the sense that when we know what we are supposed to do it's only then that we know that we fall short. To take a simplistic example if I'm merrily driving 55 down an unsigned highway I'm happy knowing that all is OK, but when I pass the sign that says "Speed limit 45" I know I need to change my ways. If someone took the sign away you might have a hard time prosecuting me for going 55 because the signs telling me what to do were missing.

This doesn't give us anything specific like "at age 12 you are responsible for your sins" but does give an idea that once we are aware of the concepts of right and wrong we can be held accountable for our actions. It still seems to be at least someone development-appropriate (I don't use the term "age-appropriate" because we all develop at different rates and a severely mentally impaired 35-year-old might be legally considered adult but clearly can't be held to the same standard as a mentally competent person half their age), so the 4-year-old that knows they are supposed to share but refuses to share can arguably be held accountable for that, even if they don't understand the difference between illegal and unethical.

The trouble with any of this is that it seems to create lots of gray areas about whether someone is saved or not. The fully fledged notion of "the elect" means that there's virtually no way of knowing whether anyone is "elect" or not, the traditional notion of "you have to accept Jesus" leaves huge unknowns regarding the fate of those who die in the womb or in infancy, there's no Scriptural support for a numerically defined "age of accountability", and a vaguely defined concept of accountability based on individual development potentially leaves parents of small children in an impossible situation where it comes to their children's salvation.

 

[Josiah]

We can baptise a baby, but what of those before birth? If a child is sinful from conception does that mean a stillborn child or an aborted fetus dies in sin and is therefore condemned, even though they never had any chance to repent of their sin? If a child is sinful from the moment they are conceived, what of the conceived embryo that fails to implant into the uterus - does the mother's body not giving it a host result in it dying in its sinfulness?

If the conditions above don't result in a child dying in their sin, at what point is a child responsible? The groups that baptise babies typically don't do so for at least the first couple of weeks.

Always hesitate to theorize.... especially when the whole point of discussion is Dogma.

BUT to do just that; yes I would theorize that those before birth also are not divinely perfect and as holy as the Lord - thus "miss the mark", the definition of sin. Most verses speak of being sinful from conception or birth or childhood... but there is one that speaks of "from conception" although I admit it's problematic.. But since I'm only THEORIZING, I see no reason to believe one has the identical character, nature and attiude of God until the last bit of the last toe exits the birth canal,. then BINGO, not perfect. AND I recall the verse that suggests that for humans, death is "the wages of SIN" the consequence is the point. And yes, unborn baby humans do die.

NOW, it is a separate issue as to whether such are granted mercy or not; even (I suppose) that God grants them faith (John the Baptist believed while still in the womb) but that would be off-topic. An aside, I had two older brothers both of whom died while in the womb (actually one during an emergency C-Section) And I had exactly the same problem. My parents asked if there was any way I could be baptized BEFORE I was born (after all, it's water in there) and the pastor said God would do that if needed. But my parents preached the word to me (mostly in song) before I was born, "My word shall not return to be void but accomplish all that I desire." But that's irrelevant here)

... intentional....

A whole other enchilada, IMO. If I'm driving 80 MPH in a 60 MPH zone, I AM violating the law, I'm not driving perfectly. Now, if it's "unintentional" might the friendly law enforcement person take that into account (if I smile a lot, and it it's a she, I flirt successfully)? Perhaps. But then MERCY toward the guilty is being applied, NOT that suddenly I didn't violate the law. See Numbers 15:22-31 for example.



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[atpollard]

Condemnation of all men still needs to be taken in the context that the OT law provided for sacrifices to wash away the sins of the people. And obviously we accept that Jesus' sacrifice washed away our sins so we don't have to keep taking pigeons to the priest like they did in the days of ancient Israel.

But if we want to say that "one act of righteousness resulted justification of life to all men" does that mean all are justified? If so you've just made a solid case for universalism. If not we're no further forward.

"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" [Rom 4:3, Gal 3:6, Jas 2:23] and "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." [Rom 1:17]

Yesterday, today and forever ... there is only one way to find favor with God and it isn't about US.
So a baby still in the womb is no closer or further from GOD than any other human being of any age.

 

[Albion]

Condemnation of all men still needs to be taken in the context that the OT law provided for sacrifices to wash away the sins of the people. And obviously we accept that Jesus' sacrifice washed away our sins so we don't have to keep taking pigeons to the priest like they did in the days of ancient Israel.

But if we want to say that "one act of righteousness resulted justification of life to all men" does that mean all are justified? If so you've just made a solid case for universalism. If not we're no further forward.

I made no such case, tango. None of that post was my wording. The reason I posted it is because it is scriptural support for the fact that even newborns are inheritors of sin and are estranged from God by nature.

 

[MennoSota]

READ what you quoted.


When you bother to share Scriptures that state my son does not think, say or do ANYTHING variant to what God does... that says he ALWAYS totally and perfectly "hits the mark" in his attitude, his actions.... then post it. Simple. So far, you've only quoted one verse, one that seems to deny this radical change that happens because of a birthday anniversary.

And post the verse that states something about a birthday and a certain age in connection to being perfect then suddenly not.

And post why God takes the life of people who have no sin? Because the bible specifically states that for people, "the result of sin is death" and we all know God at times takes the life of people even before they are born, so that must be before this not stated birthday where suddenly that person first has sin.




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I am not obligated to share exactly as you demand.
Does the Bible ever indicate that the Apostles or Jesus did what you are doing?
Your argument is to ask if the Bible ever indicates that the Apostles or Jesus said "you cannot do X." You argue that if the Bible never says you cannot, then that means you have free, unadulterated license to do what seems right in your own eyes with no need to be discerning.
In essence, you act like a progressive liberal who will push the envelope until a higher power says no while I act as a conservative that seeks to follow the case law provided by Jesus and his disciples. All the data we have provided to us points to credobaptism by the Apostles. We have no data for paedobaptism being done by the Apostles.
You opt for liberalism, I opt for conservatism.
I now consider you to be the hippie of CH.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,

I look to all the above Scriptures on the one hand...


Then I look to all the Scriptures that dogmatically speak of birthdays and a specific age in connection to being perfect or sinful (hitting or missing the target), I look for the verse that conveys, "BEFORE one has their Xth birthday, they are without sin and always in all thing hit the bullseye and have nothing to forgive, no need for grace or mercy or salvation... BUT at noon on that birthday, as a function OF that day, bingo - they become sinners who miss the mark." Looking for something that says that in the Bible... something that radically counters all the Scriptures above and makes the whole point the issue of AGE and a certain birthday. But I don't see it. And so far, you haven't presented it.


THAT and if that view was true, well.... no one would die before that birthday. And probably the best and easiest way for God to get all to heaven is just have everyone die at 11:59 AM on the day of that birthday. No need for Jesus.


And well... and I have a 15 month old son. And I can ASSURE you, he sins. Sometimes VERY intentionally and knowingly. Looking at me. With a smile on his face. I just don't buy that he is as perfect as God, as holy as the Lord, with the same attitude that Jesus had, NEVER thinking or saying or doing ANYTHING variant to how Jesus does. I don't buy it. As a parent.



- Josiah



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Does the Bible ever indicate that the Apostles or Jesus did what you are doing?

HELLO?

What does this thread have to do with what I'm doing? I'm NOT a baby!

Stick to the topic, read the title of the thread. It has NOTHING to do with what I'm doing (I'm 31 years old, and NOT a baby! And I don't claim to be sinless!)

IF you have a verse to add to all I gave in post #7, one(s) that say, "All are sinless before they celebrate their Xth birthday but on that day they cease to be perfect" then, please, post it! Add it to the list! Try to address the topic (read the title).




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[MennoSota]

HELLO?

What does this thread have to do with what I'm doing? I'm NOT a baby!

Stick to the topic, read the title of the thread. It has NOTHING to do with what I'm doing (I'm 31 years old, and NOT a baby! And I don't claim to be sinless!)




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Do you baptize sinful babies or holy babies?

 

[Josiah]

Do you baptize sinful babies or holy babies?

I don't baptize anyone, but yes - it is my opinion that all have sin, that the only one on the planet who never had sin, who always perfectly in thought word and deed was perfect - is Jesus. Everyone else is less than that. So, yes, I guess since no humans are the moral equal of Jesus, they "fall short" (the definition of sinful), then there would be no others to baptize. I think Scripture suggests that. Any my own experience - even with my son - does NOT suggest all are divinely perfect UNTIL noon on a certain birthday - then, pow, because it's that birthday, they now fall short of perfection. I'm not saying we all shouln't be perfect and the equal to God, I'm just saying I see nothing that dogmatically states taht actually IS the case for everyone until that birthday hits.

Sin/Sinner


A "sinner" by definition is one who falls short, who misses the target. It's what the very word means.

In the olympics, if an athlete archer missed the bullseye, he "sinned"

One who is not a sinner, perfectly hits the target always, perpetually.



What is the target all must perfectly, always "hit" to not miss or fall short?


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."

To the question: Does a newborn hit the bullseye? Do they do all the above? Perfectly, perpetually, always without exception? In their thoughts, words and deeds?



What Does the BIBLE state about folks hitting the target?


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth."

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of people's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all people for all have sinned."

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Romans 5:17-18

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."



There's NOTHING in Scripture that says, "But those under the age of X cannot sin cuz they are equal to God."

There's also no verse that says, "When one celebrates their Xth birthday, they FALL from being perfect and divine in thought, word and deed - and at that moment, start to fall short in fulfilling the Law."


Consider Romans 6:23 "For the result of sin is death." IF those prior to celebrating their Xth birthday have no sin, then none under that age would die.

Consider the way to be sure all people go to heaven would be to kill them the day before they celebrate their Xth birthday. Curious why God doesn't jsut insure EVERYONE gets to heaven by terminating them at 11:59 AM on that birthday, before they become in need of salvation?


And I think of my own son.... 15 months old..... a baby still..... and I KNOW he sins! Deliberately! Willingly! Looking in my eyes with a smile on his face! I NEED to correct him at times. He is NOT perfect as God is perfect, he does NOT have the same attitude that Christ does. You can't tell me otherwise! And it was like that before his FIRST birthday too, so the magical transformational birthday can't be that one.



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[MennoSota]

I don't baptize anyone, but yes - it is my opinion that all have sin, that the only one on the planet who never had sin, who always perfectly in thought word and deed was perfect - is Jesus. Everyone else is less than that. So, yes, I guess since no humans are the moral equal of Jesus, they "fall short" (the definition of sinful), then there would be no others to baptize. I think Scripture suggests that. Any my own experience - even with my son - does NOT suggest all are divinely perfect UNTIL noon on a certain birthday - then, pow, because it's that birthday, they now fall short of perfection. I'm not saying we all shouln't be perfect and the equal to God, I'm just saying I see nothing that dogmatically states taht actually IS the case for everyone until that birthday hits.






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So, babies are sinners and you/your church baptizes unrepentant sinners who are infants.
At what age do(es) you/your church stop baptizing unrepentant sinners?