Mary and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin

[MennoSota]

We are a peculiar people, as you may be figuring out...

Christ was concealed in Egypt...

Then in His Family that was not His Family...

Even though it was His family...

He broke out once as an early teen, remember?

Disappeared and his parents had to go back and find Him...

Talking in the Temple, astonishing everyone, remember...?

On His Father's Instruction...

Then back under Mary's wing...

They are not Biblically recorded as marrying...

Betrothed, and perhaps married, but perhaps not actually married...

But they presented themselves as man and wife...

Concealing thereby the Child of the Virgin from prying eyes...

Protecting Him from evil forces that wanted Him dead...

Protected by concealment in plain sight...

Christians to this day are concealed in plain sight...

Hidden in Christ...

1Co 2:7
But we speak the Wisdom of God in a Mystery,
even the hidden Wisdom,
which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

And:

1Pe 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart,
in that which is not corruptible,
even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit,
which is in the sight of God of great price.

The Church has been looking at these matters for 2000 years...

We are not speculating from Scripture...


Arsenios

Please, Arsenios, don't abuse scripture to try legitimize your strange narrative.

 

[Arsenios]

Let us be clear.
Paedobaptism is never taught in scripture and never evidenced in scripture. It
is a heresy
brought in after the Apostles died.

Are you prepared to substantiate your charge?

Or are you just shooting blanks in the darkness?

Which Biblical Doctrine does the Baptism of Children into Christ deny???


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Please, Arsenios, don't abuse scripture to try legitimize your strange narrative.

The Royal Family fled as paupers to Egypt after Mary birthed the Christ-Child...

This concealed Him from Herod, remember??


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Are you prepared to substantiate your charge?

Or are you just shooting blanks in the darkness?

Which Biblical Doctrine does the Baptism of Children into Christ deny???


Arsenios

Show me infant baptism in the scripture and you win.
Since there is never one instance of an infant being baptized and never any evidence that a person was redeemed by water baptism, it is clear that it is a heresy brought into the church after the Apostles.
The darkness is your lack of biblical support.

 

[Arsenios]

True, but neither does the Scriptural account suggest any reason why Joseph and Mary would not have lived as a normal couple afterwards.

To conclude that they did not, and worse, to make a dogma out of the speculation, is troubling.

This account comes through the oral tradition of the Body of Christ...

We did not start with an English translation of a Greek text that was a translation of the narratives of the actual events 1500 years AFTER they transpired...

We have this witness from the participants...

Does the Scriptural account every say they consummated their marriage?

Does it even say they even got married?

It only records their betrothal...

Start there, if you like...

IF,
My Dear, Scripture does NOT record their marriage...

THEN,
How can you presume marital relations...???

It is one of those quid, erat, splat syllogisms...

That you are deceived simply affirms the efficacy of the deception...

They were still not out of danger on their return, remember?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Show me infant baptism in the scripture and you win.
Since there is never one instance of an infant being baptized and never any evidence that a person was redeemed by water baptism, it is clear that it is a heresy brought into the church after the Apostles.
The darkness is your lack of biblical support.

YOU charged Biblical Heresy against the Baptizing of children into Christ...

THEREFORE...

YOU have to substantiate your charge...

So are you just shooting blanks in darkness???

Which Biblical Doctrine
does the Baptism of Children into Christ
deny???

Answer me...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

True, but neither does the Scriptural account suggest any reason why Joseph and Mary would not have lived as a normal couple afterwards.

The DID life AS a "normal couple"...
Of COURSE they did...
That was the whole idea...

And they were anything BUT a "NORMAL COUPLE"...

How many normal couples have God for a Son, for instance?

Hhhmmmmmm???

Reminds me of a question:

What is the difference between a Jewish Mother and the Theotokos?

Answer:

A Jewish Mother KNOWS her son is God!

Levity does not Levitical make, I say!!

To conclude that they did not, and worse, to make a dogma out of the speculation, is troubling.

fwiw, We have never formally dogmatized the doctrine...

But it is a RECEIVED dogma of the Church...

It has never been put through the grinder of an Ecumenical Council for ruling...

BECAUSE...

Nobody ever DARED challenge it!

[Out of fear, no doubt,
of the violation
of the pride
of their oh-so-sensitive
hide!]


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What a fun excursus for a Sunday, folks!

Thank-you!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

YOU charged Biblical Heresy against the Baptizing of children into Christ...

THEREFORE...

YOU have to substantiate your charge...

So are you just shooting blanks in darkness???

Which Biblical Doctrine
does the Baptism of Children into Christ
deny???

Answer me...


Arsenios

Arsenios, we have been over this again and again.
Since you cannot provide one instance of infant baptism in scripture and you cannot provide one instance where an unbeliever is baptized in scripture, it is obvious that the practice was added by a heretic after the Apostles died.
Therefore, God brought Reformation to his body to restore baptism back to that of the Apostles and away from the heretical teaching that infant baptism saves a human soul from hell. (It's already been established by you and MC that it's not an actual, 100% salvation anyway. It's just a potential, maybe salvation.)
It's a good thing God brought Reformation so that humans weren't taught such a heresy as paedobaptism.

 

[RichWh1]

Not in the Middle East -

You can say: "Until this present day and hour, I have never married!"
It does not mean: "I am married after this day and hour..."



Finger pointed shaming is not a good idea...


Arsenios

Trying to interpret Greek by using English grammar rules and not Greek? Yes you are!
Jehohvahs Witnesses say Jesus is not God because John did not use the definite article! Are they correct? No!
You are making the same or similar mistake

I am not pointing fingers, just correcting errors



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[Arsenios]

Arsenios, we have been over this again and again.
Since you cannot provide one instance of infant baptism in scripture and you cannot provide one instance where an unbeliever is baptized in scripture, it is obvious that the practice was added by a heretic after the Apostles died.
Therefore, God brought Reformation to his body to restore baptism back to that of the Apostles and away from the heretical teaching that infant baptism saves a human soul from hell. (It's already been established by you and MC that it's not an actual, 100% salvation anyway. It's just a potential, maybe salvation.)
It's a good thing God brought Reformation so that humans weren't taught such a heresy as paedobaptism.

You made a charge of heresy...

Substantiate that charge...

Or continue shooting blanks in the dark...

Did you make the charge of heresy or did you not?

Perhaps we can start right there...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Trying to interpret Greek by using English grammar rules and not Greek? Yes you are!
Jehohvahs Witnesses say Jesus is not God because John did not use the definite article! Are they correct? No!
You are making the same or similar mistake

I am not pointing fingers, just correcting errors

I am simply referring to Arabic grammar to this day and hour...

My Church is Arabic, my Brother...

The Antiochian Church of Damascus, Syria...

"Until the day he got married, he never took a drink."

This does not mean he is now a drunk...

It can be followed with

either:
A) But he did take a drink when or after he got married...
or
B) And he never took a drink for the rest of his life...

It is YOU who are applying ENGLISH implication to Biblical usages here...

"I was a virgin until I got married" in English IMPLIES that one AFTER marriage was no longer a virgin...

This is simply not true of Middle East expression...

You are simply mistaken...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You made a charge of heresy...

Substantiate that charge...

Or continue shooting blanks in the dark...

Did you make the charge of heresy or did you not?

Perhaps we can start right there...


Arsenios

I already did. You reject the findings.

 

[Arsenios]

Here are the Bible verses that I am aware of that make reference to Jesus' brothers:

[Matthew 12:46-47 NIV]
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd,
his mother and brothers stood outside,
wanting to speak to him.

Does not say Her sons, but His brothers...

She is simply NOT recorded as having birthed ANY other children in Scripture...

47 Someone told him,
"Your mother and brothers are standing outside,
wanting to speak to you."

Same thing... This was early in His ministry, and Hid identity was being kept hidden...

[Galatians 1:19 NIV]
19 I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

His was an adoption into another family - Of COURSE they are His brothers...

That is another point... They were the only brothers He ever knew...

All of them older than Him...

Who knows what they knew of Him -

I would guess that, to them, he was simply a late son of Joseph's new wife...

[Jude 1:1 NIV]
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called,
who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:1 - BYZ – ιουδας ιησου χριστου δουλος αδελφος δε ιακωβου
Jude...
Of Jesus Christ a servant...
But a brother of Iakovos [James]

This is literally what it says [above]...

If Jesus' mother was there, then Jesus had a mother.

Yes...

If Jesus' brothers were there, then Jesus had brothers.

Yes - But biological or by marriage?

I know how my mother gave me brothers ...

Your mother did not give birth to God...

Paul establishes in Galatians that James, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, is the brother of Jesus.

The Orthodox Church calls him the Brother of the Lord...

But not a blood relation...

Jude, the author of the letter bearing his name, identifies himself as the brother of James

And NOT the brother of Jesus... But a servant instead... There is history for this statement in Holy Tradition...

(the brother of Jesus, head of Church in Jerusalem, and author of the letter of James).

That's him - No DNA kits in those days...

I suspect that if Jesus had "cousins" rather than brothers that there is probably a way to express that in Greek.

The mother of John the Baptist was a cousin of the Theotokos, and she had other cousins...

But the word for cousin is suggeneis - sung-genesis and can mean same family, relatives, of from the same nation...

So the issue becomes one of half brothers and other wives that are never mentioned in scripture (I hate assuming things that are off-stage), plus something of a mockery of the definition of "marriage" if Joseph was "married" to a woman he never, ever slept with.

The marriage was for the sake of Jesus, not vice versa...

And for you sola folks, there is no scripture recording their wedding...


Arsenios

So while I have nothing to PROVE that what the RCC that I once considered joining is wrong about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (which is a cornerstone of her Assumption), I could never overcome my personal doubts based upon what little information actually appears in scripture about Jesus' brothers.

Thank you for allowing me to explain my beliefs. I hope that I have not offended anyone and if I have misrepresented any details of the Catholic position, it was out of ignorance rather than malice and I welcome correction.

 

[RichWh1]

I am simply referring to Arabic grammar to this day and hour...

My Church is Arabic, my Brother...

The Antiochian Church of Damascus, Syria...

Well the Bible was not written in Arabic and the apostles did not speak Arabic.

Matthew wrote in Aramaic and Greek

"Until the day he got married, he never took a drink."

This does not mean he is now a drunk...

You are going to extremes and I never said Mary was raped!
Your example of one not drinking until... then afterwords becoming a drunk is a false analogy, going to extremes

It can be followed with

either:

A) But he did take a drink when or after he got married...
or
B) And he never took a drink for the rest of his life...

That’s what I was saying!! I never said Joseph raped Mary! (The extreme) so too your example is also extreme.

"I was a virgin until I got married" in English IMPLIES that one AFTER marriage was no longer a virgin...

Yes! The implication is that when a man and woman marry they consummate that marriage. That’s all I was trying to say




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[Arsenios]

I already did. You reject the findings.

Which Biblical Doctrine does Baptism of children into Christ contradict?

You have to show the doctrine in scripture that forbids baptism of children into Christ...

Your answer is to try to get me to show you something...

Nice try, but no cigar...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

The DID life AS a "normal couple"...
Of COURSE they did...
That was the whole idea...

And they were anything BUT a "NORMAL COUPLE"...

How many normal couples have God for a Son, for instance?

Hhhmmmmmm???

Reminds me of a question:

What is the difference between a Jewish Mother and the Theotokos?

Answer:

A Jewish Mother KNOWS her son is God!

Obviously, I would have been better off not to use the word "normal"--which is married couples having sex--but should just have said what I meant.

 

[MennoSota]

Which Biblical Doctrine does Baptism of children into Christ contradict?

You have to show the doctrine in scripture that forbids baptism of children into Christ...

Your answer is to try to get me to show you something...

Nice try, but no cigar...


Arsenios

The doctrine of salvation...because you aren't baptizing them into Christ. You're just getting them wet and then lying to their parents that their infants are in Christ.
There is no scripture that says "Baptizing an unrepentant infant saves them and places them into Christ." You just make it up as an assertion and think if you push the lie long enough it will become true.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The doctrine of salvation...because you aren't baptizing them into Christ. You're just getting them wet and then lying to their parents that their infants are in Christ.
There is no scripture that says "Baptizing an unrepentant infant saves them and places them into Christ." You just make it up as an assertion and think if you push the lie long enough it will become true.

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed, this is what the heresy did so many years ago. It left the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone and added salvation by the works of water baptism. It's too bad the heresy came into the church. So many have been misled.