PERFECT LOVE

Andrew

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We don't see it exactly the same, but close.
Arsenio is denying what the Bible plainly says.
I'm saying that Judas did not accept Gods forgiveness, he relied on his own good deed of returning the blood money, 'woe to him who has seen the Son of Man and has not believed', Judas was a thief tried and true.
Note that Jesus had also called Peter 'Satan' because Peter was attempting to rebuke Gods plan through His Son, Peter also denied ever knowing Christ three times and Christ forgave him those three times by asking if Peter loved him!
This is a prime example of how God will never leave his people!
Judas however failed miserably by repenting for himself and purchasing for himself a lot, completely abandoning his trust in God. If he were a true martyr as all of the Apostles and disciples were (give or take John of Patmos) he would have not so easily been replaced imo... and he would not have taken his own life
 
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YourTruthGod

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I'm saying that Judas did not accept Gods forgiveness, he relied on his own good deed of returning the blood money, 'woe to him who has seen the Son of Man and has not believed', Judas was a thief tried and true.
No way is it wrong to try to give back the money. There was a thief in the Bible who gave back money and it was okay.
We have to be sorry about our sins and repent of them.
Judas was obviously sorry and he repented, but there was no way he could believe he would be forgiven.
Note that Jesus had also called Peter 'Satan' because Peter was attempting to rebuke Gods plan through His Son, Peter also denied ever knowing Christ three times and Christ forgave him those three times by asking if Peter loved him!

Well there are some big differences from Peter and Judas.
Peter made a mistake by not understanding that Jesus had to die and that Jesus was not coming to get at anyone; in addition, Peter denied Jesus out of fear of physical harm. That is way different than Judas.

This is a prime example of how God will never leave his people!
Judas however failed miserably by repenting for himself and purchasing for himself a lot,

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

completely abandoning his trust in God. If he were a true martyr as all of the Apostles and disciples were (give or take John of Patmos) he would have not so easily been replaced imo... and he would not have taken his own life

He was chosen because he was not good and would betray Jesus.
 

Andrew

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YourTruthGod

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You sound like a Calvinist :)

Why?

God doesn't make people believe and obey.

That is what the Calvinists believe.

Where do you get that I said anything against the truth and defended Calvinism?
 

atpollard

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You said Judas repented...

[Matthew 27:3 MGNT] 3 τότε ἰδὼν Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν ὅτι κατεκρίθη μεταμεληθεὶς ἔστρεψεν τὰ τριάκοντα ἀργύρια τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ πρεσβυτέροις

Matthew says it.
 

atpollard

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Why?

God doesn't make people believe and obey.

That is what the Calvinists believe.
POINT OF INFORMATION:

Calvinism believes that “natural man” is incapable of obedience (Eph 2:1-3, 1 Cor 2:14).
Calvinism believes that God empowers people to believe and obey (Romans 8:9-11, Phil 2:12-13).

Calvinism does NOT teach that God MAKES people believe.
(Although Calvinism does teach that God makes people alive) ... Eph 2:4-5
 

YourTruthGod

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POINT OF INFORMATION:

Calvinism believes that “natural man” is incapable of obedience (Eph 2:1-3, 1 Cor 2:14).
Calvinism believes that God empowers people to believe and obey (Romans 8:9-11, Phil 2:12-13).

Calvinism does NOT teach that God MAKES people believe.
(Although Calvinism does teach that God makes people alive) ... Eph 2:4-5

All those scriptures you posted are not about what you say.
 

YourTruthGod

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POINT OF INFORMATION:

Calvinism believes that “natural man” is incapable of obedience (Eph 2:1-3,

That is about circumcision in the flesh.


1 Cor 2:14).

Calvinism believes that God empowers people to believe and obey (Romans 8:9-11,
This is where you need to understand that the word to use is 'natural'.
The NATURAL MAN is about a man who only wants to please his flesh.

Romans Romans 8:9:11 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Phil 2:12-13).

God works in you by putting His love being in you. You should want to obey because that love, but some still don't.
Calvinism does NOT teach that God MAKES people believe.
(Although Calvinism does teach that God makes people alive) ... Eph 2:4-5

God does NOT make unbelievers alive.
 

Lamb

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God does NOT make unbelievers alive.

He does...by giving them faith. Unbelievers cannot make themselves alive so it's what God does. If they remain in their unbelief they will not have eternal life.
 

YourTruthGod

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He does...by giving them faith. Unbelievers cannot make themselves alive so it's what God does. If they remain in their unbelief they will not have eternal life.

...but, Lutherans and Calvinists teach that God makes people alive with the Holy Spirit before they believe.

But what does Jesus says?

Jesus says to believe and then receive the Holy Spirit.
 

YourTruthGod

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He does...by giving them faith. Unbelievers cannot make themselves alive so it's what God does. If they remain in their unbelief they will not have eternal life.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

We must have knowledge of God to have faith in Him.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11
 

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Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

We must have knowledge of God to have faith in Him.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11

It is the job of the Holy Spirit to give us faith and grow our faith. We are enabled to believe only because God is the one who gives us faith. Yes, He uses His Word but the Holy Spirit plays a role that you seem to be disagreeing with?
 

YourTruthGod

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It is the job of the Holy Spirit to give us faith and grow our faith.

This part is strange to me that you say that. Could you tell me how it is the job of the Holy Spirit to give us faith and grow our faith?

How can you still say that after I gave scriptures saying we receive faith by being taught, persuaded, and convinced?

We are enabled to believe only because God is the one who gives us faith. Yes, He uses His Word but the Holy Spirit plays a role that you seem to be disagreeing with?

We are not enabled to believe. All can believe if they do what Jesus says to do. Jesus tells us how to .

We are not given the Holy Spirit until we are saved and that is after we believe.
 

Arsenios

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Pretty hard to do when tradition is not raised above scripture in my world. I don't fellowship where the myths of men are raised in higher esteem than the word of God.

Back at ya!

A.
 

Arsenios

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Yeah and I am not playing your game.

Then please explain...

I showed you my dilemma...

And I was and am sincere...

Often what seems obvious to one person is not to the other...


Arsenios
 
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YourTruthGod

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Then please explain...

I showed you my dilemma...

And I was and am sincere...


Arsenios

You are saying that repentance had to do with suicide.

The Bible does not say that.

Judas went to the chief priests and elders to and gave back the money.

That was his repentance.
 

Arsenios

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[Matthew 27:3 MGNT] 3 τότε ἰδὼν Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν ὅτι κατεκρίθη μεταμεληθεὶς ἔστρεψεν τὰ τριάκοντα ἀργύρια τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ πρεσβυτέροις

Matthew says it.

μεταμεληθεὶς metamelitheis is not metanoia...

The first refers to regret - to feeling bad about something - When the feeling passes, it changes...

The second refers to a change in the heart, in the core of a person -


Arsenios
 

YourTruthGod

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Arsenios,

The law is given from God to Moses.

Chief priest and elders were set in place.

There were certain things that a person had to do to atone for themselves.

There were no rituals to do for the shedding of innocent blood, except to be put to death.

When David had innocent blood shed, there were no external baths and animal sacrifices that would atone for that, except to be put to death.

But David begged God for forgiveness.

God accepted the repentance of David, but he still had to pay for his sin.

Bad things happened to David for what he did.

David committed adultery and was responsible for innocent blood being shed.

As for Judas, how does anyone pay for that?

How does one atone for the shedding of blood of the Son of God?
 

Arsenios

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You are saying that repentance had to do with suicide.

The Bible does not say that.

Judas went to the chief priests and elders to and gave back the money.

That was his repentance.

Thank-you, and I agree...

My additional point was that this repentance was SHALLOW...

Giving back the money to those who had given it to you was not enough repentance...

It was but the beginning of repentance, and much more was needed...

And the proof that more was needed is seen in his suicide...

eg Feeling bad is not enough...

Acting on the impulse of feeling is not enough...

Throwing the money back at the chief priests and elders is not enough...

It was his feelings about silver that got him into this mess in the first place...

He never addressed his passion for silver with repentance...


Arsenios
 

YourTruthGod

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Thank-you, and I agree...

My additional point was that this repentance was SHALLOW...

Giving back the money to those who had given it to you was not enough repentance...

It was but the beginning of repentance, and much more was needed...

And the proof that more was needed is seen in his suicide...

eg Feeling bad is not enough...

Acting on the impulse of feeling is not enough...

Throwing the money back at the chief priests and elders is not enough...

It was his feelings about silver that got him into this mess in the first place...

He never addressed his passion for silver with repentance...


Arsenios

You are wrong.
 
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