Working With Your Hands vs Going to College

[tango]

Somewhat off-topic but I can't help thinking that with the way tuition fees and other costs are going, your comment about having money hidden away is going to become more and more popular (as an aside with things like the rising cost of geriatric/end-of-life care and inheritance taxes it's going to be doubly so). I know a few people who have at least explored all sorts of things like discretionary trusts, for that very reason. What makes it even nicer is that although the trust is a vehicle that is subject to taxes wherever it is set up, depending on where you live and how it is set up it can, in some circumstances, make distributions that are not considered to be income for tax purposes.

 

[Josiah]

Somewhat off-topic but I can't help thinking that with the way tuition fees and other costs are going, your comment about having money hidden away is going to become more and more popular (as an aside with things like the rising cost of geriatric/end-of-life care and inheritance taxes it's going to be doubly so). I know a few people who have at least explored all sorts of things like discretionary trusts, for that very reason. What makes it even nicer is that although the trust is a vehicle that is subject to taxes wherever it is set up, depending on where you live and how it is set up it can, in some circumstances, make distributions that are not considered to be income for tax purposes.

The whole thing is absurd.

Our country officially and legally says an 18 year old is an adult and FULLY responsible for his/her OWN financial affairs - not the parents. An 18 year old can buy a car, for example, and if he misses a payment, no one can touch the parents. The one HUGE exception: College. It leads to all kinds of games (including what I suggested - parents "hiding" their savings for college).

Panama.... Egypt.... they pick up the full tab for college for everyone (just as the US does for elementary and high school). These are young adults, no longer their parent's responsibility... and higher education benefits the society. It's time for our states to make a commitment to end college tuition (obviously, with some restrictions). It can't happen overnight, but we can make that decision and begin phasing that in (maybe a 10% reduction each year). Here's a topic where Berni Sanders is right (what did I just say????). If Turkey does it, we can. Now, the STUDENT (not parents) should still be responsible for Room and Board (an expense for non-college students, too) Books, etc., it SHOULD be assumed that the student will be working part time during the school year and full time in the summer. Parents may still supply the car (my parents did - I had my mom's old Buick Century Wagon until it was stolen, and then her old Toyota Camry than ran FOREVER) or maybe for those 4-5 years, their bedroom at home... but then they often do that for their young ADULTS not attending college. And YES, this should apply to colleges whether the student is heading for a degree or a trade certificate. Time for the USA to enter the 21st Century.... to return to being a leader in education. We were among the first in the world to provide free elementary education for all..... and then free high school education for all.... time to be among the last to grant free college for all qualified.



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

What percentage of Turks or Panamanians actually attend college? And I am wondering what curricula are offered?

 

[Josiah]

What percentage of Turks or Panamanians actually attend college? And I am wondering what curricula are offered?

Unknown,,,,

But they are far from the only countries to now offer free college (some even do for foreign students). https://www.edvisors.com/plan-for-c...ith-free-tuition/countries-with-free-tuition/

And of course, they (like all 50 US states) offer free education, K-12 (regardless of how many students that involves).

 

[Arsenios]

What percentage of Turks or Panamanians actually attend college? And I am wondering what curricula are offered?

I do not like the State running the schools...

They will teach State directed courses...

And become arms of State Educational Propaganda...

Eliminating the diversity which diverse private schools propagate...


Arsenios

 

[Jason76]

A degree can always pay off - if you can reach a market - as with anything. For instance, even a seemingly useless degree like philosophy, in the hands of supreme marketer - can be a six figure online income (via a blog, forum etc.).

Of course, trades are the same - you market yourself as an employee but, if not - if you can run your own gig - assuming you can beat the market.

 

[tango]

The whole thing is absurd.

Our country officially and legally says an 18 year old is an adult and FULLY responsible for his/her OWN financial affairs - not the parents. An 18 year old can buy a car, for example, and if he misses a payment, no one can touch the parents. The one HUGE exception: College. It leads to all kinds of games (including what I suggested - parents "hiding" their savings for college).

Panama.... Egypt.... they pick up the full tab for college for everyone (just as the US does for elementary and high school). These are young adults, no longer their parent's responsibility... and higher education benefits the society. It's time for our states to make a commitment to end college tuition (obviously, with some restrictions). It can't happen overnight, but we can make that decision and begin phasing that in (maybe a 10% reduction each year). Here's a topic where Berni Sanders is right (what did I just say????). If Turkey does it, we can. Now, the STUDENT (not parents) should still be responsible for Room and Board (an expense for non-college students, too) Books, etc., it SHOULD be assumed that the student will be working part time during the school year and full time in the summer. Parents may still supply the car (my parents did - I had my mom's old Buick Century Wagon until it was stolen, and then her old Toyota Camry than ran FOREVER) or maybe for those 4-5 years, their bedroom at home... but then they often do that for their young ADULTS not attending college. And YES, this should apply to colleges whether the student is heading for a degree or a trade certificate. Time for the USA to enter the 21st Century.... to return to being a leader in education. We were among the first in the world to provide free elementary education for all..... and then free high school education for all.... time to be among the last to grant free college for all qualified.



- Josiah

I agree with you, up to a point.

The trouble is when increasing numbers of young people go to college it simply isn't affordable to fund it for everyone. If we can go back to the idea that maybe 10% of young people attend university to earn degrees to become the professionals of tomorrow it becomes more plausible to fund their degree courses out of the public purse, and those degree courses would be intended to serve a specific purpose. If you want to be a nuclear physicist and you've got the brains to cope with the degree course, by all means go and study nuclear physics courtesy of the taxpayer. Then we could look for more on-the-job training, apprenticeships, practical/vocational training as required, and so on.

The trouble is if half of young people are going to university (as was a target in the UK in around the turn of the century) all it means is that a degree ends up meaning little more than that you're more or less average or better.Trying to fund that centrally does little more than create a rod for everybody's back. It's one thing to fund the training of the teachers and medics of tomorrow but at what point is it determined that a degree course in Gender Studies or Golf Course Design or something isn't something that should be funded through taxation?

I wouldn't have a problem with an approach that said something like the top 10%, academically speaking, could have a degree course funded to some extent regardless of family wealth. Beyond that the universities could decide to offer scholarships or assistance to people who were maybe in the top 15% and couldn't afford a degree course. The scions of billionaires could still spend three years swanning around if Daddy would fund it - that will never change. The trouble is that such a scheme will immediately be criticised because wealthy parents can afford better education for their children, making it more likely they will feature in the top 10% academically while the kids from the local ghetto barely stand a chance.

 

[Jason76]

I agree with you, up to a point.

The trouble is when increasing numbers of young people go to college it simply isn't affordable to fund it for everyone. If we can go back to the idea that maybe 10% of young people attend university to earn degrees to become the professionals of tomorrow it becomes more plausible to fund their degree courses out of the public purse, and those degree courses would be intended to serve a specific purpose. If you want to be a nuclear physicist and you've got the brains to cope with the degree course, by all means go and study nuclear physics courtesy of the taxpayer. Then we could look for more on-the-job training, apprenticeships, practical/vocational training as required, and so on.

The trouble is if half of young people are going to university (as was a target in the UK in around the turn of the century) all it means is that a degree ends up meaning little more than that you're more or less average or better.Trying to fund that centrally does little more than create a rod for everybody's back. It's one thing to fund the training of the teachers and medics of tomorrow but at what point is it determined that a degree course in Gender Studies or Golf Course Design or something isn't something that should be funded through taxation?

I wouldn't have a problem with an approach that said something like the top 10%, academically speaking, could have a degree course funded to some extent regardless of family wealth. Beyond that the universities could decide to offer scholarships or assistance to people who were maybe in the top 15% and couldn't afford a degree course. The scions of billionaires could still spend three years swanning around if Daddy would fund it - that will never change. The trouble is that such a scheme will immediately be criticised because wealthy parents can afford better education for their children, making it more likely they will feature in the top 10% academically while the kids from the local ghetto barely stand a chance.

Honestly, the top 10 percent in brains would get private scholarships anyway.

 

[tango]

Honestly, the top 10 percent in brains would get private scholarships anyway.

In which case is there much of a case to be made for public funding for people who aren't among the top tier, academically speaking, to pursue an academic qualification?

 

[Albion]

Honestly, the top 10 percent in brains would get private scholarships anyway.

That used to be true, but today when many colleges charge $100,000 in tuition alone for a bachelors degree, the private scholarship grants -- with very few exceptions -- cannot afford to contribute at that level any longer, and certainly not for the number of applicants they used to help. I belong to a local association that, as one of its activities, used to make scholarship grants of up to a thousand dollars to several applicants each year. Now I am almost ashamed to have them given out, knowing what a drop in the bucket that represents in todays world.

 

[Jason76]

Well, I think college degrees have become sort of an idol for many. I mean, what does it matter if one has one or not? Do we need our fame to come from college? That's what people really want isn't it. recognition?

O.K. a lot of rock stars didn't go to college - nobody cared!

 

[Josiah]

Well, I think college degrees have become sort of an idol for many. I mean, what does it matter if one has one or not? Do we need our fame to come from college? That's what people really want isn't it. recognition?

A degree simply indicates completion of a program.


I don't think it's bad to go to school and learn. And I don't think it's meaningless idolatry to complete elementary school or high school or college. Education is not bad. And IMO, completing some process in such is not bad.

O.K. a lot of rock stars didn't go to college - nobody cared!

Rock stars are the models we are all to try to emulate? Well, even the "School of Rock" was a school, lol... BTW, Hitler and Stalin dien't go to college, either. But Hitler at least did go to school (and probably did get some kind of recognition of completing some program in such).



Is the only "benefit" that matters money? If something doesn't result in having more money, then it's worthless and void of any value? Is salary the only value there is? So, why learn about the Bible? Unless you are a paid minister, it won't result in more income. So, if a woman is a full time homemaker (like my wife) their education is worthless, a waste, of no value to anyone and anything? If someone fixes computers for a living, all they learned about history and literature was a total waste, worthless, valueless and we taxpayers should get our money back for educating him?


Interesting.... because for the past 500-600 years, the "rationale" for education has been 1) So people can read the Bible and hymnal, 2) So people can read and understand history, the news, politics, and public issues and thus be an informed electorate , 3) so that people will be enriched. Originally, FREE and PUBLIC education (which goes back about 200 years in the West) went to roughly what is now the 8th grade. About 100 years ago, States and countries began expanding this through high school (although attendance was optional, around the same time it was required for all through 8th grade), now many countries have extended this through college (countries such as Egypt, Turkey, Uruguay and many more - acknowledging the value of education).


Now, I agree, where a society stops MANDATING education ... and where it stops PAYING for that education.... these are subjective (and a bit arbitrary). But the percentage of Americans seeing value in college education today is FAR, FAR greater than the percentage of Americans a century or so ago who were attending high school. And whereas the USA was the first major country to make high school tuition free (we USED to be a leader in education), we have been surpassed by a LOT of countries, some of which have average incomes FAR less than in the USA - they simply valuing education more than we.



- Josiah



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[Jason76]

A degree simply indicates completion of a program.


I don't think it's bad to go to school and learn. And I don't think it's meaningless idolatry to complete elementary school or high school or college. Education is not bad. And IMO, completing some process in such is not bad.







Rock stars are the models we are all to try to emulate? Well, even the "School of Rock" was a school, lol... BTW, Hitler and Stalin dien't go to college, either. But Hitler at least did go to school (and probably did get some kind of recognition of completing some program in such).



Is the only "benefit" that matters money? If something doesn't result in having more money, then it's worthless and void of any value? Is salary the only value there is? So, why learn about the Bible? Unless you are a paid minister, it won't result in more income. So, if a woman is a full time homemaker (like my wife) their education is worthless, a waste, of no value to anyone and anything? If someone fixes computers for a living, all they learned about history and literature was a total waste, worthless, valueless and we taxpayers should get our money back for educating him?


Interesting.... because for the past 500-600 years, the "rationale" for education has been 1) So people can read the Bible and hymnal, 2) So people can read and understand history, the news, politics, and public issues and thus be an informed electorate , 3) so that people will be enriched. Originally, FREE and PUBLIC education (which goes back about 200 years in the West) went to roughly what is now the 8th grade. About 100 years ago, States and countries began expanding this through high school (although attendance was optional, around the same time it was required for all through 8th grade), now many countries have extended this through college (countries such as Egypt, Turkey, Uruguay and many more - acknowledging the value of education).


Now, I agree, where a society stops MANDATING education ... and where it stops PAYING for that education.... these are subjective (and a bit arbitrary). But the percentage of Americans seeing value in college education today is FAR, FAR greater than the percentage of Americans a century or so ago who were attending high school. And whereas the USA was the first major country to make high school tuition free (we USED to be a leader in education), we have been surpassed by a LOT of countries, some of which have average incomes FAR less than in the USA - they simply valuing education more than we.



- Josiah



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If the demand is good for it, people will pay private, so why public schools? I mean, at some point people have to face reality; they're going to have to either work harder to pay a private school, or the kid doesn't go to school.

But anyway, I'm aware of places in the third world, where public schools are terrible - so many parents send kids to private ones if it's possible.

 

[tango]

Well, I think college degrees have become sort of an idol for many. I mean, what does it matter if one has one or not? Do we need our fame to come from college? That's what people really want isn't it. recognition?

O.K. a lot of rock stars didn't go to college - nobody cared!

An idol? Seriously?

It matters whether you have one or not because so many employers won't even look at you unless you have the right pieces of paper. In some places it really is as simple as no degree = no job. For some jobs that makes sense - if you want to hire a nuclear physicist the chances are you want someone who has evidence of a very high level of study of nuclear physics (hence you're probably going to want someone with a PhD). For some jobs it's just so entrenched in the culture that it's a way of weeding out candidates even if it catches some good candidates along the way - for example when you get the kind of place that ignores 20 years of experience of actually doing the job because you don't have a piece of paper that says you can probably do the job.

ETA: Elon Musk has been quoted as saying something about how he didn't go to Harvard but people who work for him did. And that's great, but assuming that because one person ended up in a position without a degree it's easy for anyone to get there is the kind of assumption that lands people in dead-end minimum wage jobs wondering why the world is against them.

 

[tango]

If the demand is good for it, people will pay private, so why public schools? I mean, at some point people have to face reality; they're going to have to either work harder to pay a private school, or the kid doesn't go to school.

But anyway, I'm aware of places in the third world, where public schools are terrible - so many parents send kids to private ones if it's possible.

It's not just the third world where public schools can be terrible.

 

[Josiah]

If the demand is good for it, people will pay private, so why public schools? I mean, at some point people have to face reality; they're going to have to either work harder to pay a private school, or the kid doesn't go to school.

Then the solution is simple: Eliminate public and free education. Let education be for the rich. Is that a good policy for a society? Only the rich should read and write? Only the rich should be blessed by history, literature, etc? Okay, I get it - just disagree.

public schools can be terrible

Agreed. So can schools where tuition is charged. But is the solution to bad schools to permit only the rich to attend them? Should be eliminate free elementary school education in the USA because some public schools are terrible? Should we eliminate high school education in the USA because some high schools are terrible?

COULD IT BE that at least some of the reason why some schools are terrible is related to why some are against free education for all - a low value on education, on an educated society? The USA once upon a time had a very high value on education (some credit Calvinism, so strong here at the time, as a reason for this).... so that we were among the first to have free public education (and free libraries, btw - the first public free library in the world is in New Hampshire), among the first to have free education for all through 8th grade and then through high school. But this value has declined.




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[Arsenios]

Iv'e seen some Facebook memes on this - normally by conservative type guys. Anyway, even though I disagree with much conservatives say - I have to sort of agree with this one. I mean, when did being a carpenter or plumber - or even a janitor become a thing of shame? Also, aren't degrees often rip-offs? I mean, if you can beat the market as a plumber or plumber business owner - who cares about a college degree?

The older I got, strange to say, the smarter my dumb dad seemed to get...
After he died, he became positively brilliant across the years!

Took me YEARS to recover from having attended college...
Still run across an occasional vestigial remnant, I say!

Learning manual work is training in -R-E-A-L-I-T-Y- ...

Unless you want to end up being some kind of fantasy enslaved sissie...
Who doesn't know and doesn't care to know how to work...

Hard work is a great blessing for the soul AND the body...
Absence of labors turns grown young men into parasites...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Then the solution is simple: Eliminate public and free education. Let education be for the rich. Is that a good policy for a society? Only the rich should read and write? Only the rich should be blessed by history, literature, etc? Okay, I get it - just disagree.
.

That is what is happening now, as rich families are bribing their kids educations for them...

And heading to jail, it would seem...

Monastic callings are a good thing...


Arsenios

 

[Jason76]

The older I got, strange to say, the smarter my dumb dad seemed to get...
After he died, he became positively brilliant across the years!

Took me YEARS to recover from having attended college...
Still run across an occasional vestigial remnant, I say!

Learning manual work is training in -R-E-A-L-I-T-Y- ...

Unless you want to end up being some kind of fantasy enslaved sissie...
Who doesn't know and doesn't care to know how to work...

Hard work is a great blessing for the soul AND the body...
Absence of labors turns grown young men into parasites...

Arsenios

Well, the problem is often reaching a market, not the lack of skills. I mean, a thousand guys can fix a car in Tennessee (my home). How many would actually own a shop or even get hired?

 

[Josiah]

That is what is happening now, as rich families are bribing their kids educations for them...

Well.... IN PART.... that's the reality in the USA for COLLEGE. Is it a good thing? Should we support college for only the rich?

And if college should be only for the rich, why not high school? Why not elementary school?

The USA - leading the world - first made elementary school (through 8th grade) for all and for free. We did that about 200 years ago, and slowly, the rest of the world followed. We did it because we valued education FOR ALL (not just for the rich). Then roughly a century later, States began extending this through high school (at the time, few rural areas even had a high school, so the building of these quickly followed) - and the rest of the world slowly followed. Now, many Western countries have extended this through college, valuing education for ALL (not just the rich)... even a number of "third world" countries have this, valuing education for all. But the USA is moving in the opposite direction, with the cost of college rising faster than just about anything else. Even states that once had no tuition (like California) now do, and it's rising fast. IMO, this is simply a fruit of a nation that no longer values education much and no longer leads in this area.




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