What about human suffering? How can God allow it?

[Jason76]

Another Big Atheist Argument


Well, Jehovah's Witnesses gave a straightforward answer - in claiming God would restore all the kids killed in car accidents, people burned by fires, animals abused, people tortured in all sorts of abominations. Anyway, that seems like a good answer - but still, the sheer cruelty of the extreme bad things of life - makes me wonder. I mean, kids dying everyday from hunger and there is supposedly a loving God?

 

[psalms 91]

Another Big Atheist Argument


Well, Jehovah's Witnesses gave a straightforward answer - in claiming God would restore all the kids killed in car accidents, people burned by fires, animals abused, people tortured in all sorts of abominations. Anyway, that seems like a good answer - but still, the sheer cruelty of the extreme bad things of life - makes me wonder. I mean, kids dying everyday from hunger and there is supposedly a loving God?

It is called satan causes evil and we are allowed free will, good or bad. Turning evil around for good does not negate that but rather God uses the circumstances to have good come out of it. We do not see nor can understand how God does what He does but we see the end result. As long as there is sin and satan is here there will be trajedy and bad things.

 

[NewCreation435]

Pain and death are the consequences of the fall of man. The Bible says the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23. In the beginning, it was not like that.

 

[tango]

Another Big Atheist Argument


Well, Jehovah's Witnesses gave a straightforward answer - in claiming God would restore all the kids killed in car accidents, people burned by fires, animals abused, people tortured in all sorts of abominations. Anyway, that seems like a good answer - but still, the sheer cruelty of the extreme bad things of life - makes me wonder. I mean, kids dying everyday from hunger and there is supposedly a loving God?

This sort of question appears every once in a while, where someone thinks it's really clever to argue that if God could end suffering but chooses not to then he is evil, and if he is incapable of ending suffering then he isn't much of a god. All this misses the point completely, it's little more than the equivalent of a meme that makes a point clearly and succinctly but just doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny.

The simple reality is this. If I have a big stick I may choose to hit someone with it. That will cause them to suffer pain. The only way God can stop that suffering is to take my free will away, such that I can no longer hit people with my big stick. At that point we all become little more than robots, programmed to do nothing other than good things.

Another aspect of it is equally simple. It's easy to look at some of the more horrific articles in the news and wonder how a loving God can allow such things. We see the tiny children horribly abused by their parents, untold destruction caused by natural disasters and the like. It's easy to wonder how a loving God can allow it. But what would happen if God did suddenly decide to stop those horrific events? There would be no more natural disasters, no more horrific abuse of babies etc. And before long our standards would move such that the newly defined worst case would cause us horror and we'd ask how a loving God could allow it. Before long we'd stub a toe on a piece of furniture and wring our hands wondering how God could allow such a horrific thing to happen.

 

[Josiah]

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" Or "If God is all loving and all powerful, how come there's so much bad in his world?"


They are bad questions....


1. There are no good people. Bad things happen to bad people. They happen to everyone but then everyone is bad.


2. God may PERMIT stuff.... and even in a sense enable it.... but that doesn't make it His primary will. Did God KNOW Adam and Eve would fall? Yes. Did God allow it? Yes. Did God empower Adam and Eve to do this (as indeed to breathe)? Yup. Was it His primary will? Nope. My son is walking now, but not too well. He attempts feats he is not yet up to - and takes some tumbles. Do I know this will happen? Yes. Is it my -primary will that he falls and cries? Of course not. People make a bad assumption that knowing equals causing.


3. Contrary to what some non-religious people assume, religion is not about answering questions, they are about RELATIONSHIPS - with the divine, with one another, with the world around us. They are about living in the real world - with God and each other. The Bible is not a philosophy book. The Bible is not an answer book. I agree that most of us can come up with a long list of good questions but it's absurd to think the Bible is required to answer them (especially to our satisfaction). The Bible itself says its purpose is "that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, you may have life in His Name." The Bible doesn't get into philosphical questions, it addresses our relationship to God and others, it addresses living in this world AS IT IS. So, the issue for the Bible (and Christianity) is not WHY there's bad but what are we to do about that? The Bible has long sections (even whole books) that affirm that evil, injustice, wrong, pain, suffering, persecution exists - but it never explains ultimately WHY but rather WHAT NOW, how do we live in that, how does our relationship with God impact that, how God might even use that. The Bible is not a philosphy book, it's a religion book. It doesn't deal with the theoretical but with living.



- Josiah




.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The only way God can stop that suffering is to take my free will away, such that I can no longer hit people with my big stick. At that point we all become little more than robots, programmed to do nothing other than good things.

And that would be a bad thing?

 

[Jason76]

This sort of question appears every once in a while, where someone thinks it's really clever to argue that if God could end suffering but chooses not to then he is evil, and if he is incapable of ending suffering then he isn't much of a god. All this misses the point completely, it's little more than the equivalent of a meme that makes a point clearly and succinctly but just doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny.

The simple reality is this. If I have a big stick I may choose to hit someone with it. That will cause them to suffer pain. The only way God can stop that suffering is to take my free will away, such that I can no longer hit people with my big stick. At that point we all become little more than robots, programmed to do nothing other than good things.

Another aspect of it is equally simple. It's easy to look at some of the more horrific articles in the news and wonder how a loving God can allow such things. We see the tiny children horribly abused by their parents, untold destruction caused by natural disasters and the like. It's easy to wonder how a loving God can allow it. But what would happen if God did suddenly decide to stop those horrific events? There would be no more natural disasters, no more horrific abuse of babies etc. And before long our standards would move such that the newly defined worst case would cause us horror and we'd ask how a loving God could allow it. Before long we'd stub a toe on a piece of furniture and wring our hands wondering how God could allow such a horrific thing to happen.

I'd say some real pansies would get annoyed by a toe, LOL. Anyway, I don't think people, generally, would complain about that - so it's a weak argument.

 

[tango]

And that would be a bad thing?

Love is a meaningless concept unless it is freely given. How can you love unless you also have the option to not love?

 

[tango]

I'd say some real pansies would get annoyed by a toe, LOL. Anyway, I don't think people, generally, would complain about that - so it's a weak argument.

If stubbing a toe was the worst thing that could possibly happen to you because God had prevented anything worse from ever happening, chances are people would complain. Compared to being gang-raped and burned alive it's utterly inconsequential but in a world with no greater ills than that it would, quite literally, be the worst thing that you could even imagine happening. And so I suspect people would complain about it.

 

[MennoSota]

This sort of question appears every once in a while, where someone thinks it's really clever to argue that if God could end suffering but chooses not to then he is evil, and if he is incapable of ending suffering then he isn't much of a god. All this misses the point completely, it's little more than the equivalent of a meme that makes a point clearly and succinctly but just doesn't necessarily stand up to scrutiny.

The simple reality is this. If I have a big stick I may choose to hit someone with it. That will cause them to suffer pain. The only way God can stop that suffering is to take my free will away, such that I can no longer hit people with my big stick. At that point we all become little more than robots, programmed to do nothing other than good things.

Another aspect of it is equally simple. It's easy to look at some of the more horrific articles in the news and wonder how a loving God can allow such things. We see the tiny children horribly abused by their parents, untold destruction caused by natural disasters and the like. It's easy to wonder how a loving God can allow it. But what would happen if God did suddenly decide to stop those horrific events? There would be no more natural disasters, no more horrific abuse of babies etc. And before long our standards would move such that the newly defined worst case would cause us horror and we'd ask how a loving God could allow it. Before long we'd stub a toe on a piece of furniture and wring our hands wondering how God could allow such a horrific thing to happen.

Is your will free if God must approve of your action or not approve of your action with every decision you make? Do you imagine that God has never stopped you or changed your mind because it was not in His plan to have you do what you might have done?
I am always amazed at how humans demean God and reduce Him to a wimpy sideshow that they think of as God. I dare people to actually observe the God of Scripture because He is much more powerful and Sovereign than rebellious free-willers ever realize.

 

[MennoSota]

This is the Sovereign God who does as He wills and laughs at the complaints of rebellious and corrupt men.

Exodus 4:11

Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Deuteronomy 32:39

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Samuel 2:6-8

The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and on them he has set the world.

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14

Consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

Isaiah 45:5-6

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other.

Lamentations 3:37-38

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

 

[tango]

Is your will free if God must approve of your action or not approve of your action with every decision you make? Do you imagine that God has never stopped you or changed your mind because it was not in His plan to have you do what you might have done?
I am always amazed at how humans demean God and reduce Him to a wimpy sideshow that they think of as God. I dare people to actually observe the God of Scripture because He is much more powerful and Sovereign than rebellious free-willers ever realize.

I'm not really interested in getting drawn into yet another discussion of whether we have free will or not. You clearly believe in a God who has preordained just about everything, I believe in a God that gives me freedom to choose. The notion of God sometimes intervening doesn't mean that God always intervenes.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Love is a meaningless concept unless it is freely given. How can you love unless you also have the option to not love?

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not really interested in getting drawn into yet another discussion of whether we have free will or not. You clearly believe in a God who has preordained just about everything, I believe in a God that gives me freedom to choose. The notion of God sometimes intervening doesn't mean that God always intervenes.

You clearly reject what God declares in his word and create a philosophy from outside of scripture as your view. It would be appreciated if you ceased from having small God syndrome.

 

[Arsenios]

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" Or "If God is all loving and all powerful, how come there's so much bad in his world?"

Those are not Orthodox questions!

They are bad questions....

Easy enough to answer...

1. There are no good people.
Bad things happen to bad people.
They happen to everyone
but then
everyone is bad.

Actually, bad things happened to Jesus...

Do you want to follow Jesus?

Col 1:24
Who am now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
and filling up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ
in my flesh
for his body's sake,
which is the Church:

Are you rejoicing in your sufferings?


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Atheists ask you “How can God allow human suffering?”

Please ... ... Just tell them “God doesn’t ALLOW it, God ENJOYS it!” (That should shut them up.) :ewink:

[Proverbs 1:20-33 NASB]
20 Wisdom shouts in the street, She lifts her voice in the square;
21 At the head of the noisy [streets] she cries out; At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded? And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing And fools hate knowledge?
23 "Turn to my reproof, Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
24 "Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25 And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof;
26 I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes,
27 When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.
28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30 "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof.
31 "So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices.
32 "For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
33 "But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."

There is a message of hope for those that hear the call of Jesus and follow the Good Shepherd, but it is meaningless drivel to the lost and wasted on those blind to all things spiritual ...

[Job 1:21 NASB] 21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
[Job 2:10 NASB] 10 But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
[Job 42:12 NASB] 12 The LORD blessed the latter [days] of Job more than his beginning; and he had 14,000 sheep and 6,000 camels and 1,000 yoke of oxen and 1,000 female donkeys.

[John 16:33 NASB] 33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

[Hebrews 13:12-14 NLT] 12 So also Jesus suffered and died outside the city gates to make his people holy by means of his own blood. 13 So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore. 14 For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

[Revelation 7:17 NLT] 17 For the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd. He will lead them to springs of life-giving water. And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
[Revelation 21:4 NLT] 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever."

 

[Arsenios]

Atheists ask you “How can God allow human suffering?”

Please ... ... Just tell them “God doesn’t ALLOW it, God ENJOYS it!” (That should shut them up.) :ewink:

Some of us prefer to die for our love of God...

You're a-gonna get us killed for bad jokes...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Some of us prefer to die for our love of God...

You're a-gonna get us killed for bad jokes...


Arsenios

Not you, the EOC in America is nothing like the Protestant cults that departed from true works-based Christianity at the Great Reformation. So you should be safe.

However, if persecution in Oregon and Washington state has reached the point that you are being forced to die for your love of God ... you might want to think about moving East a few states.

 

[Arsenios]

Not you, the EOC in America is nothing like the Protestant cults that departed from true works-based Christianity at the Great Reformation. So you should be safe.

However, if persecution in Oregon and Washington state has reached the point that you are being forced to die for your love of God ... you might want to think about moving East a few states.

And miss out on martyrdom???

My bones go into the ground right here...

Unless, of course, God tells me otherwise...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

And miss out on martyrdom???

My bones go into the ground right here...

Unless, of course, God tells me otherwise...


Arsenios

Seems you're not planning on being burned at the stake...