PERFECT LOVE

[Arsenios]

The Greek word ἁρπάζω harpazo (translated “snatch”, “pluck”, etc.)** specifically means “to seize”, “to carry off by force”.

The English derivative is "HARPOON" from harpazo...

Very much a transitive verb...

Something that something or someone does to something or someone ELSE...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Is the person in God’s hand a “someone” ... to be included in the “no one” ... that can not snatch anyone from God’s hand?

What of Jesus’ promise ... “and I will [try my best to] raise him up on the last day [but I make no promises, because some of those that the Father draws may choose to jump out of Our hand.] [John 6:44 TJNSV*]

* Things Jesus Never Said Version

 

[atpollard]

** Jesus wasn’t speaking in Greek.

Please cite your source so we can verify your claim ... otherwise it is not a “verifiable fact” it is just an “oft repeated opinion”.

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

In Post #82 (atpollard), the following thoughts were presented:

Is the person in God’s hand a “someone” ... to be included in the “no one” ... that can not snatch anyone from God’s hand?

What of Jesus’ promise ... “and I will [try my best to] raise him up on the last day [but I make no promises, because some of those that the Father draws may choose to jump out of Our hand.] [John 6:44 TJNSV*]

* Things Jesus Never Said Version

I would suggest that it would be wise to take Jesus at His word, and accept the meaning of the word He chose to use, rather than use contradictory human logic to invalidate what He said.

The apparent conflict introduced by atpollard is not a conflict at all. It is merely an expression of the general, versus an expression of the more specific.

==============================================================================================

An example of that is:

In Matthew 19:5-6, Jesus says:
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

(He uses the specific words "divorce" and "adultery" in Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18.)

Yet three verse later, in Matthew 19:9, He says:
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

(He expresses the same thought in Matthew 5:32.)


Which proclamation is correct? (Both are, obviously – one is general, and one is more specific.)

In similar fashion, John 6:44 is a general statement concerning the drawing of a person, and that person’s future if they submit to that drawing. John 10:27-29 is a more specific statement focusing on assurance of safety for those that have so submitted – no outside power can deprive them of that future.

That ties in with other statements Jesus made in:
Matthew 10:22: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Does it not?

==============================================================================================

 

[atpollard]

I would suggest that it would be wise to take Jesus at His word, and accept the meaning of the word He chose to use, rather than use contradictory human logic to invalidate what He said.

Perhaps you are correct, but would the wise thing not be to take Jesus at ALL of his words rather than just ONE WORD ...

[John 10:27-30 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

In English, Greek or Hebrew ... does this paragraph speak of assurance of being safely led and guarded to the end, or a warning about choosing to fall away? Are Jesus’ promises conditional in these verses, or are they statements of fact?

I leave it to each reader to read for themself and trust the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth.

 

[Arsenios]

Perhaps you are correct, but would the wise thing not be to take Jesus at ALL of his words rather than just ONE WORD ...

[John 10:27-30 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

In English, Greek or Hebrew ... does this paragraph speak of assurance of being safely led and guarded to the end, or a warning about choosing to fall away? Are Jesus’ promises conditional in these verses, or are they statements of fact?

I leave it to each reader to read for themself and trust the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth.

Well, there is the case of Jonah, who decided to bag the whole God-thing and go in the opposite direction God had commanded him to go...

And we all know that this did not happen...

Yet his story is never explained in the Bible as being about guaranteed pre-selection unto Salvation...

He did not fall from belief - He fell from ACTING according to God's Command...

But the basic meaning of harpazo is too SIEZE...

I do not think it has a middle voice, but I could be wrong...

eg I do not think it can be used as seizing one's self...


Arsenios

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, there is the case of Jonah, who decided to bag the whole God-thing and go in the opposite direction God had commanded him to go...

And we all know that this did not happen...

Yet his story is never explained in the Bible as being about guaranteed pre-selection unto Salvation...

He did not fall from belief - He fell from ACTING according to God's Command...

But the basic meaning of harpazo is too SIEZE...

I do not think it has a middle voice, but I could be wrong...

eg I do not think it can be used as seizing one's self...


Arsenios

This reminds of what some folks do with John 10:27-29 when they assert that nobody can snatch a believer from God, but the believer himself can somehow jump out of God's hand.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[psalms 91]

This reminds of what some folks do with John 10:27-29 when they assert that nobody can snatch a believer from God, but the believer himself can somehow jump out of God's hand.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Snatch maybe but walk away they can.

 

[Arsenios]

This reminds of what some folks do with John 10:27-29 when they assert that nobody can snatch a believer from God, but the believer himself can somehow jump out of God's hand.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Here is what you are up against, Seven B's:

Lucifer, the greatest of all the angels, who was bodiless and pure, the most blessed Light-Carrier of all of God's creation, FELL...
We, who are already fallen in Adam from Lucifer through the Serpent, now are living in fallen flesh in sensuous coats of skin...
Scripture commands us to persevere to the end of our earthly and fallen lives...
Christ Himself told Mary the Magdalene not to be touching Him - His body...
We are told in many Scriptures that we CAN fall IF we do not persevere to the end...
This has been the consistent teaching of the followers of Christ for 2000 years...
Hebrews warns us that should we fall away, we are fit only for burning...

And now we have English speaking Bible readers outside the 2000 year Holy Tradition of the Body of Christ...
Who are proclaiming that fallen man saved by God cannot fall because God won't let him so fall...
Who are logically deducing from Scripture what is contrary to Scripture...
When Paul tells us we who are grafted can be pruned away:

Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And in the face of this, we still find this belief that once we have been 'saved'...
That then we cannot fall away and be destroyed...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Here is what you are up against, Seven B's:

Lucifer, the greatest of all the angels, who was bodiless and pure, the most blessed Light-Carrier of all of God's creation, FELL...
We, who are already fallen in Adam from Lucifer through the Serpent, now are living in fallen flesh in sensuous coats of skin...
Scripture commands us to persevere to the end of our earthly and fallen lives...
Christ Himself told Mary the Magdalene not to be touching Him - His body...
We are told in many Scriptures that we CAN fall IF we do not persevere to the end...
This has been the consistent teaching of the followers of Christ for 2000 years...
Hebrews warns us that should we fall away, we are fit only for burning...

And now we have English speaking Bible readers outside the 2000 year Holy Tradition of the Body of Christ...
Who are proclaiming that fallen man saved by God cannot fall because God won't let him so fall...
Who are logically deducing from Scripture what is contrary to Scripture...
When Paul tells us we who are grafted can be pruned away:

Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And in the face of this, we still find this belief that once we have been 'saved'...
That then we cannot fall away and be destroyed...


Arsenios

It is clear your church has been consistently wrong, leaving the Apostles teaching for myths, Arsenios.

 

[Arsenios]

It is clear your church has been consistently wrong, leaving the Apostles teaching for myths, Arsenios.

This Church was founded by Paul, Menno -

When he wintered over in Antioch that year, remember?

In Antioch where the followers of Christ...
The People of the Way...
Were first called Christians, remember?

We have not changed his teaching in 2000 years now, and counting...

If all the Apostolic Churches have it wrong, then did Christ fail??

Or do you thank God that He managed to get a Bible to the Gutenburg presses
so Luther could finally get right what Christ and Paul and the rest of Christianity
had failed to convey?

Or do you thank God for Luther...
Who finally after 1500 years...
Managed to interpret the Bible...
And correct what Christ failed to impart?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

This Church was founded by Paul, Menno -

When he wintered over in Antioch that year, remember?

In Antioch where the followers of Christ...
The People of the Way...
Were first called Christians, remember?

We have not changed his teaching in 2000 years now, and counting...

If all the Apostolic Churches have it wrong, then did Christ fail??

Or do you thank God that He managed to get a Bible to the Gutenburg presses
so Luther could finally get right what Christ and Paul and the rest of Christianity
had failed to convey?

Or do you thank God for Luther...
Who finally after 1500 years...
Managed to interpret the Bible...
And correct what Christ failed to impart?


Arsenios

Paul never created the crazy crap you teach, Arsenios. Your faction went off the rails and abandoned grace for works...the very thing Paul condemned in the Galatian church.

 

[RichWh1]

What does any of this have to do with perfect love?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Post #82 (atpollard):

Perhaps you are correct, but would the wise thing not be to take Jesus at ALL of his words rather than just ONE WORD ...

[John 10:27-30 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Followed by:

In English, Greek or Hebrew ... does this paragraph speak of assurance of being safely led and guarded to the end, or a warning about choosing to fall away? Are Jesus’ promises conditional in these verses, or are they statements of fact?

One church council defined Jesus as being 100% God while He was on Earth. Whether or not that is actually so, Jesus was definitely the Son of God. He knew what He was saying and doing. The word that Jesus deliberately chose to employ (translated “snatch”, “pluck”, etc. in English), specifically refers to 3rd party (external source) action. That “just ONE WORD” specifically includes the possibility of self-removal in each and all of the three languages that Jesus could have spoken His utterance in.

atpollard has consistently ignored the actual meaning of the word Jesus chose to use. He has had to. A treasured doctrine falls to pieces unless he continues to do so. He has attempted to make the self-removal (that Jesus’ statements allow for) have shades of someone pulling themselves out of quicksand by their own hair. But that attempt does not work. The word Jesus chose to use has a clear, unequivocal and unassailable meaning.

==============================================================================================

The following statement was made in Post #83, challenging the proposition that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, not Greek on that occasion:

Please cite your source so we can verify your claim ... otherwise it is not a “verifiable fact” it is just an “oft repeated opinion”.

A cursory search of the internet shows that it is the agreement of scholars (for what that is worth, admittedly) that Jesus was speaking Aramaic to His hearers. Independent logic based on history, would also dictate that. So the proposition shows itself to be more of a “verifiable fact” than is the meaning atpollard imposes on the word Jesus chose to use.

But in whatever language Jesus was speaking, the meaning of the word He used has been demonstrated to denote third party action only. That was the word Jesus chose to use. His choice. His meaning.

To deny that, I would suggest, could carry some degree of risk.

God’s Perfect Love does not preclude justifiable judgement where appropriate. I suggest, so should ours.

==============================================================================================

 

[Arsenios]

Paul never created the crazy crap you teach, Arsenios.
Your faction went off the rails and abandoned grace for works...
the very thing Paul condemned in the Galatian church.

So what does the Galatian Church teach today, Menno?

Or was Christ unable to impart His Teachings to others?

Which Church did Christ succeed in establishing, Menno?

Which Church did Paul succeed in establishing?

Where is the historical Church that teaches your version of Christian Dogma?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What does any of this have to do with perfect love?

It is called spin...

eg Spinning any topic back to one's favorite grinding axe...

We all do it to some degree or other, I fear...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So what does the Galatian Church teach today, Menno?

Or was Christ unable to impart His Teachings to others?

Which Church did Christ succeed in establishing, Menno?

Which Church did Paul succeed in establishing?

Where is the historical Church that teaches your version of Christian Dogma?


Arsenios

The body of Christ is the church. The EOC is one denomination and a remnant in the EOC have been elected by God to be adopted. This is true with many denominations.
God inspired men to write down His word so that we might know Him. He never inspired one denomination as the sole leader of Christ's body. Any denomination making that claim is walking the path of a cult, not the path of Christ Jesus.
You have read the letter to the Galatians. If you cannot conceive of what God warned us through Paul, I doubt I can correct your blindness. I truly wish you didn't have a stumbling block before you. I watched you stumble over it continually and thus miss the sweetness of living in God's grace and peace. I see you continually fighting at the bit and refusing God's acceptance of you in Christ Jesus. I see you acting like Martin Luther before God revealed justification by faith alone. You work so hard and fall so short...so you work even harder...not realizing that you will eternally fall short and thus die in your sins. Brother, let Christ justify you by faith alone. Rest in His loving adoption of you as His child. Stop fighting Him.

 

[Arsenios]

The body of Christ is the church. The EOC is one denomination and a remnant in the EOC have been elected by God to be adopted. This is true with many denominations.
God inspired men to write down His word so that we might know Him. He never inspired one denomination as the sole leader of Christ's body. Any denomination making that claim is walking the path of a cult, not the path of Christ Jesus.
You have read the letter to the Galatians. If you cannot conceive of what God warned us through Paul, I doubt I can correct your blindness. I truly wish you didn't have a stumbling block before you. I watched you stumble over it continually and thus miss the sweetness of living in God's grace and peace. I see you continually fighting at the bit and refusing God's acceptance of you in Christ Jesus. I see you acting like Martin Luther before God revealed justification by faith alone. You work so hard and fall so short...so you work even harder...not realizing that you will eternally fall short and thus die in your sins. Brother, let Christ justify you by faith alone. Rest in His loving adoption of you as His child. Stop fighting Him.

In this regarding me you are deceived, Menno...

God Bless you my Brother...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

==============================================================================================

Post #82 (atpollard):


Followed by:



One church council defined Jesus as being 100% God while He was on Earth. Whether or not that is actually so, Jesus was definitely the Son of God. He knew what He was saying and doing. The word that Jesus deliberately chose to employ (translated “snatch”, “pluck”, etc. in English), specifically refers to 3rd party (external source) action. That “just ONE WORD” specifically includes the possibility of self-removal in each and all of the three languages that Jesus could have spoken His utterance in.

atpollard has consistently ignored the actual meaning of the word Jesus chose to use. He has had to. A treasured doctrine falls to pieces unless he continues to do so. He has attempted to make the self-removal (that Jesus’ statements allow for) have shades of someone pulling themselves out of quicksand by their own hair. But that attempt does not work. The word Jesus chose to use has a clear, unequivocal and unassailable meaning.

==============================================================================================

The following statement was made in Post #83, challenging the proposition that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, not Greek on that occasion:


A cursory search of the internet shows that it is the agreement of scholars (for what that is worth, admittedly) that Jesus was speaking Aramaic to His hearers. Independent logic based on history, would also dictate that. So the proposition shows itself to be more of a “verifiable fact” than is the meaning atpollard imposes on the word Jesus chose to use.

But in whatever language Jesus was speaking, the meaning of the word He used has been demonstrated to denote third party action only. That was the word Jesus chose to use. His choice. His meaning.

To deny that, I would suggest, could carry some degree of risk.

God’s Perfect Love does not preclude justifiable judgement where appropriate. I suggest, so should ours.

==============================================================================================

You didn’t actually respond to the questions that I asked ...

In English, Greek or Hebrew ... does this paragraph speak of assurance of being safely led and guarded to the end, or a warning about choosing to fall away? Are Jesus’ promises conditional in these verses, or are they statements of fact?

Care to try to again to answer what was asked?

 

[MennoSota]

In this regarding me you are deceived, Menno...

God Bless you my Brother...


Arsenios

With all respect, I don't think so. God has given me a gift of discernment and our dialogue has been long enough for us to know each other's views. I urge you to not fight against the bit of God's grace alone.