The fall

MoreCoffee

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THE FALL

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine,[SUP]257[/SUP] and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion".[SUP]258[/SUP] The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.[SUP]259[/SUP] We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.[SUP]260[/SUP]

WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE

The reality of sin

386 Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to understand what sin is, one must first recognise the profound relation of man to God, for only in this relationship is the evil of sin unmasked in its true identity as humanity's rejection of God and opposition to him, even as it continues to weigh heavy on human life and history.

387 Only the light of divine Revelation clarifies the reality of sin and particularly of the sin committed at mankind's origins. Without the knowledge Revelation gives of God we cannot recognise sin clearly and are tempted to explain it as merely a developmental flaw, a psychological weakness, a mistake, or the necessary consequence of an inadequate social structure, etc. Only in the knowledge of God's plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the freedom that God gives to created persons so that they are capable of loving him and loving one another.

Original sin - an essential truth of the faith

388 With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.[SUP]261[/SUP] We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. the Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to "convict the world concerning sin",[SUP]262[/SUP] by revealing him who is its Redeemer.

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. the Church, which has the mind of Christ,[SUP]263[/SUP] knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.[SUP]264[/SUP] Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.[SUP]265[/SUP]

257 St. Augustine, Conf. 7, 7, 11: PL 32, 739.
258 2 Th 2:7; I Tim 3:16.
259 Cf. ⇒ Rom 5:20.
260 Cf. ⇒ Lk 11:21-22; ⇒ Jn 16:11; ⇒ I Jn 3:8.
261 Cf. ⇒ Rom 5:12-21.
262 ⇒ Jn 16:8.
263 Cf. ⇒ I Cor 2:16.
264 Cf. GS 13 # 1.
265 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513; Pius XII: DS 3897; Paul VI: AAS 58
(1966), 654.
 

MoreCoffee

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THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.[SUP]266[/SUP] Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".[SUP]267[/SUP] The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."[SUP]268[/SUP]

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.[SUP]269[/SUP] This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."[SUP]270[/SUP] The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".[SUP]271[/SUP]

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."[SUP]272[/SUP]

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.[SUP]273[/SUP] "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."[SUP]274[/SUP] In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature - to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."[SUP]275[/SUP]

266 Cf. ⇒ Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.
267 Cf ⇒ Jn 8:44; ⇒ Rev 12:9.
268 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.
269 Cf. ⇒ 2 Pt 2:4.
270 ⇒ Gen 3:5.
271 ⇒ I Jn 3:8; ⇒ Jn 8:44.
272 St. John Damascene, Defide orth. 2, 4: PG 94, 877.
273 ⇒ Jn 8:44; cf. ⇒ Mt 4:1-11.
274 I ⇒ Jn 3:8.
275 ⇒ Rom 8:28.
 

Arsenios

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I should think that a good study would be to take Genesis' account of the Fall of Adam and its aftermath on a line by line basis, bringing each new part of it into the context of that which came prior, and looking at how it has been variously interpreted across two thousand years...

Hatchet-Jobbers might object...

I should even think Jewish (non-Christian) commentary might prove valuable...


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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I should think that a good study would be to take Genesis' account of the Fall of Adam and its aftermath on a line by line basis, bringing each new part of it into the context of that which came prior, and looking at how it has been variously interpreted across two thousand years...

Hatchet-Jobbers might object...

I should even think Jewish (non-Christian) commentary might prove valuable...


Arsenios

Inviting people to offer their private interpretations of holy scripture will lead to trouble. That's how Protestantism got started.
 

Arsenios

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Inviting people to offer their private interpretations of holy scripture will lead to trouble. That's how Protestantism got started.

You are probably right - Yet tracing the lineage and timelines might avail some fruit...

Going to the online catechism is one way...

Going to the Patristic writings is another...

Going to Luther would be...??? :)


Arsenios
 

psalms 91

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Inviting people to offer their private interpretations of holy scripture will lead to trouble. That's how Protestantism got started.
No. Protestants got started because the church tried to keep them blind and deaf concerning the Word and the church was using it for its own profit. Lets be clear that yes scripture was interpreted, the right way I might add and also the church was corrupt
 

MoreCoffee

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You are probably right - Yet tracing the lineage and timelines might avail some fruit...

Going to the online catechism is one way...

Going to the Patristic writings is another...

Going to Luther would be...??? :)


Arsenios

Luther's opinions may be okay or they may not I haven't investigated his views on the Holy Scriptures beyond some often repeated claims about his dislike for some books on the bible.
 

MoreCoffee

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No. Protestants got started because the church tried to keep them blind and deaf concerning the Word and the church was using it for its own profit. Lets be clear that yes scripture was interpreted, the right way I might add and also the church was corrupt

Psalms 91, Protestantism did get its start with Martin Luther's private interpretations of holy scripture. That is a fact.

Martin Luther's private interpretations opposed what your religious experiences tell you; he rejected people in his times who claimed spiritual gifts from God. Gifts like speaking in tongues, prophecy, healings, and miracles.
 

psalms 91

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Psalms 91, Protestantism did get its start with Martin Luther's private interpretations of holy scripture. That is a fact.

Martin Luther's private interpretations opposed what your religious experiences tell you; he rejected people in his times who claimed spiritual gifts from God. Gifts like speaking in tongues, prophecy, healings, and miracles.
You are ignoring priests charging for prayer and indulgences and buying someone out of purgatory and quite a few other practices that were sinful. There is much I admire about Catholics but history is history. Luther was off on some of what he believed but then so is every church in one way or another. Not one has it all right and is perfect.
 

MoreCoffee

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You are ignoring priests charging for prayer and indulgences and buying someone out of purgatory and quite a few other practices that were sinful. There is much I admire about Catholics but history is history. Luther was off on some of what he believed but then so is every church in one way or another. Not one has it all right and is perfect.

I am not ignoring any of the abuses that priests and bishops or lay people perpetrated. Nor am I ignoring indulgences - which still can be obtained - or purgatory or any sinful things that people did and some do today. And even though many Catholics are admirable people it is not for their sake nor because of their example that I am a Christian. People who are good are a pleasure to meet and people who are bad are the opposite but it is not the people in the Church that makes me a Catholic Christian. People are people some good some bad most a mixture. Nor is it Martin Luther's mistakes that cause me to reject Lutheranism. Martin Luther was "people" too. He cannot make me be Lutheran nor reject it. And you are right to say that no one (on Earth) is perfect or has it all right. Not the pope, nor any bishop, priest, or me. I am a Christian because of one person and one person only; the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the one person who influenced me to be a Christian. The story of Christ in the gospels is what persuaded me to believe in God. And I am a Catholic because Catholic teaching is good and wholesome and true. Not every opinion offered by Catholic people is good, nor are all the things Catholic people do good and wholesome nor is every view presented by Catholic people true. Faith is in God not in the Church nor in the people in the Church nor is any person living on Earth today the saviour of Christians all of those good things belong to Christ and Christ alone. Christ is the Truth he is Holy, Just, and Good, he is Love and Light and Life eternal. Martin Luther, John Calvin, the founding leaders of the various Pentecostal denominations are not Christ either. Good in some ways and bad in others none of these people are Saviour none is Lord none is God and no one ought to rely on them or their writings or their opinions for eternal life.

The thread is about the fall into sin and its consequences. It is the one doctrine that ought to make any Christian cautious about following an Earthly leader - living or dead. Popes may be nice or not but they cannot be relied upon nor can Martin Luther be relied upon nor can the teachings of popes or Luther or any other leader of the past or present be relied upon Christ alone excepted.

The bible will not save anybody it did not die for anybody nor can its words convert anybody and give them life. The holy scriptures are called holy because they are set apart by God and it is God in Christ alone that saves and it is the Holy Spirit alone who converts. Church is good and useful but only because God is in his people (the Church) and not because the people save or are infallible or perfectly good. Believing any of those things is a kind of idolatry. Believing that the bible will save or is a rule book that if followed will save is a kind of idolatry. Beliefs like that must be avoided for the sake of your soul.

So do not look to any earthly human being to lead Christians to heaven, none knows the way. Christ alone knows the way to heaven and he alone can lead Christians there.
 
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Albion

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Inviting people to offer their private interpretations of holy scripture will lead to trouble. That's how Protestantism got started.
Protestantism did not invite people to make 'private interpretations' of Scripture.
 

Arsenios

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I am not ignoring any of the abuses that priests and bishops or lay people perpetrated. Nor am I ignoring indulgences - which still can be obtained - or purgatory or any sinful things that people did and some do today. And even though many Catholics are admirable people it is not for their sake nor because of their example that I am a Christian. People who are good are a pleasure to meet and people who are bad are the opposite but it is not the people in the Church that makes me a Catholic Christian. People are people some good some bad most a mixture. Nor is it Martin Luther's mistakes that cause me to reject Lutheranism. Martin Luther was "people" too. He cannot make me be Lutheran nor reject it. And you are right to say that no one (on Earth) is perfect or has it all right. Not the pope, nor any bishop, priest, or me. I am a Christian because of one person and one person only; the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the one person who influenced me to be a Christian. The story of Christ in the gospels is what persuaded me to believe in God. And I am a Catholic because Catholic teaching is good and wholesome and true. Not every opinion offered by Catholic people is good, nor are all the things Catholic people do good and wholesome nor is every view presented by Catholic people true. Faith is in God not in the Church nor in the people in the Church nor is any person living on Earth today the saviour of Christians all of those good things belong to Christ and Christ alone. Christ is the Truth he is Holy, Just, and Good, he is Love and Light and Life eternal. Martin Luther, John Calvin, the founding leaders of the various Pentecostal denominations are not Christ either. Good in some ways and bad in others none of these people are Saviour none is Lord none is God and no one ought to rely on them or their writings or their opinions for eternal life.

The thread is about the fall into sin and its consequences. It is the one doctrine that ought to make any Christian cautious about following an Earthly leader - living or dead. Popes may be nice or not but they cannot be relied upon nor can Martin Luther be relied upon nor can the teachings of popes or Luther or any other leader of the past or present be relied upon Christ alone excepted.

The bible will not save anybody it did not die for anybody nor can its words convert anybody and give them life. The holy scriptures are called holy because they are set apart by God and it is God in Christ alone that saves and it is the Holy Spirit alone who converts. Church is good and useful but only because God is in his people (the Church) and not because the people save or are infallible or perfectly good. Believing any of those things is a kind of idolatry. Believing that the bible will save or is a rule book that if followed will save is a kind of idolatry. Beliefs like that must be avoided for the sake of your soul.

So do not look to any earthly human being to lead Christians to heaven, none knows the way. Christ alone knows the way to heaven and he alone can lead Christians there.

M/C this post is by far the best post I have seen you post here ever...

Thank-you...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Protestantism did not invite people to make 'private interpretations' of Scripture.

Well, the Orthodox Church invites people to embrace the Patristic consensus of understanding for Biblical interpretation...

The Latin Church invites people to embrace the Scholastic tradition of its own Church's understanding...

Luther was offended by Rome's corruption and cast out not merely corruption, but the Church itself as He understood it...

He offered instead his own understanding of Scripture as greater than the Church's understanding...

Three very different understandings...

So the Orthodox look to the consensus of all the Churches throughout Christian history...

The Latins look to the consensus of their own Church throughout their own Church's history...

The Protestants forsake consensus and look to the Bible and its personal interpretation...

To the Orthodox, the Reformation is a neo-scholastic embrace of Western Scholasticism...

A classic case of straining the gnat while swallowing the elephant...

A logical progression, as it were...

Using scholastic methodology against Roman Catholic Scholasticism...

Broad Brush, I know...


Arsenios
 

psalms 91

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I am not ignoring any of the abuses that priests and bishops or lay people perpetrated. Nor am I ignoring indulgences - which still can be obtained - or purgatory or any sinful things that people did and some do today. And even though many Catholics are admirable people it is not for their sake nor because of their example that I am a Christian. People who are good are a pleasure to meet and people who are bad are the opposite but it is not the people in the Church that makes me a Catholic Christian. People are people some good some bad most a mixture. Nor is it Martin Luther's mistakes that cause me to reject Lutheranism. Martin Luther was "people" too. He cannot make me be Lutheran nor reject it. And you are right to say that no one (on Earth) is perfect or has it all right. Not the pope, nor any bishop, priest, or me. I am a Christian because of one person and one person only; the Lord, Jesus Christ, is the one person who influenced me to be a Christian. The story of Christ in the gospels is what persuaded me to believe in God. And I am a Catholic because Catholic teaching is good and wholesome and true. Not every opinion offered by Catholic people is good, nor are all the things Catholic people do good and wholesome nor is every view presented by Catholic people true. Faith is in God not in the Church nor in the people in the Church nor is any person living on Earth today the saviour of Christians all of those good things belong to Christ and Christ alone. Christ is the Truth he is Holy, Just, and Good, he is Love and Light and Life eternal. Martin Luther, John Calvin, the founding leaders of the various Pentecostal denominations are not Christ either. Good in some ways and bad in others none of these people are Saviour none is Lord none is God and no one ought to rely on them or their writings or their opinions for eternal life.

The thread is about the fall into sin and its consequences. It is the one doctrine that ought to make any Christian cautious about following an Earthly leader - living or dead. Popes may be nice or not but they cannot be relied upon nor can Martin Luther be relied upon nor can the teachings of popes or Luther or any other leader of the past or present be relied upon Christ alone excepted.

The bible will not save anybody it did not die for anybody nor can its words convert anybody and give them life. The holy scriptures are called holy because they are set apart by God and it is God in Christ alone that saves and it is the Holy Spirit alone who converts. Church is good and useful but only because God is in his people (the Church) and not because the people save or are infallible or perfectly good. Believing any of those things is a kind of idolatry. Believing that the bible will save or is a rule book that if followed will save is a kind of idolatry. Beliefs like that must be avoided for the sake of your soul.

So do not look to any earthly human being to lead Christians to heaven, none knows the way. Christ alone knows the way to heaven and he alone can lead Christians there.
Truth
 

Arsenios

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So do not look to any earthly human being to lead Christians to heaven,
none knows the way.
Christ alone knows the way to heaven
and he alone can lead Christians there.

M/C, I would like to take this thought up with you when I have time...

Services begin in 7 minutes...


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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M/C this post is by far the best post I have seen you post here ever...

Thank-you...


Arsenios

I've been posting in CH for several years. I do not think you have read all 17,000 + posts that I've written. The truth is that I have written similar things numerous times in numerous posts. Not everyone reads them nor remembers them but I remember them.
 

MoreCoffee

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Well, the Orthodox Church invites people to embrace the Patristic consensus of understanding for Biblical interpretation...
The Latin Church invites people to embrace the Scholastic tradition of its own Church's understanding...
This is not a true statement.

Luther was offended by Rome's corruption and cast out not merely corruption, but the Church itself as He understood it...
I have no idea what motivated Martin Luther but it certainly was not corruption among the people or the priests or the bishops. When he defended is views his primary complaint was that he had formed a view and would not change it unless somebody could prove him wrong by quoting from the bible. That seems to imply that what motivated him was the fundamental rightness of his own private interpretations.

He offered instead his own understanding of Scripture as greater than the Church's understanding...
This is true as far as I am able to discover.

Three very different understandings...

So the Orthodox look to the consensus of all the Churches throughout Christian history...

The Latins look to the consensus of their own Church throughout their own Church's history...
This is closer to the truth.

The Protestants forsake consensus and look to the Bible and its personal interpretation...

To the Orthodox, the Reformation is a neo-scholastic embrace of Western Scholasticism...

A classic case of straining the gnat while swallowing the elephant...

A logical progression, as it were...

Using scholastic methodology against Roman Catholic Scholasticism...

Broad Brush, I know...


Arsenios

Protestantism was without doubt influenced by the philosophies current in the sixteenth century and in the previous centuries. Not all of the philosophies but some. The fault with their approach - as seen from a Catholic perspective - is that they chose some particularly bad philosophies.
 

Arsenios

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MoreCoffee said:
So do not look to any earthly human being(1)
to lead Christians to heaven,
none knows the way.
Christ alone knows the way to heaven
and He alone can lead(2) Christians there.

So two questions come to mind:

(1) - Does this mean that only angelic human beings know the way?
Or that no human being knows the way?

(2) - If Christ alone knows the way, does this mean the Apostles do not?
eg - What is the purpose of discipling the nations?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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This is not a true statement.

Forgive the broad brush... Here is the meaning:

If one looks at the Apostolic Churches NOT in Communion with the Latin Church of the West, one finds all of them disagreeing with Latin Scholastic Dogmas for the same reasons - And this even for those not in Communion with each other over some issue, such as the Coptic Church with the EOC... Hence, the doctrine, for instance, that Communion with the Latin Papacy is the defining consideration of membership in Christ's Church is held only by one Communion, and that is the Latin Communion, and not any of all the other Communions... Same with the doctrines of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Supremacy, etc etc...

As for the rest, almost all of which we agree on, being Apostolic Churches, we are of one accord... The absence of Communion is based on these departures from the Ancient Faith by the Latin Church in which all the other Apostolic Churches agree, and Latin Rome agrees only with Her Own Communion...

Hence the EOC seeks consensus with the Holy Tradition of all the Apostolic Churches from the beginnings...
The Latin Church holds to the teachings of the Latin Church in a few dogmas with which the EOC disagrees...
And the Reformation Churches and their derivatives have become non-dogmatic and Bible-centered...

Does that clear it up any?


Arsenios
 
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