If Calvinism is not right, how come some people can't muster up faith?

[MoreCoffee]

It is good to be cautious about following feelings. Most actions are motivated by feelings. But most actions are safe and good only when the feelings happen to be towards something reasonable and good. Faith is not a feeling. Faith can, and often does, evoke strong emotions but faith is not itself a feeling.

.... what he said.

The result of cultivating a bible trained conscience is to train your emotions to like, love, and respect godly things and to see worldly ways in the proper light that God's goodness casts. It is training with the intention of learning sanity. Because sins have made us all insane. It is sins that train our emotions into loving what is wicked and what is harmful.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, if faith is not a feeling of belief, what is it?

It is a gift from God.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is a gift from God.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 does not say that faith is a gift.

 

[MennoSota]

Hebrews 11:1 does not say that faith is a gift.

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Who gives assurance? Who convicts us?
Faith is all from God.
Does God give faith as a gracious gift or must you merit faith from God by your works so you can boast about it? Tell us, MC, about your merited faith you have created for yourself.

 

[Lamb]

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Who gives assurance? Who convicts us?
Faith is all from God.
Does God give faith as a gracious gift or must you merit faith from God by your works so you can boast about it? Tell us, MC, about your merited faith you have created for yourself.

Right!

Salvation is a gift...but without faith you don't have salvation. Hence, faith is also a gift for salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Right!

Salvation is a gift...but without faith you don't have salvation. Hence, faith is also a gift for salvation.

Faith is not a gift to attain salvation. God makes us alive in Christ by unmerited, elective, grace. Faith is a gift to sustain our election and empower us to do the works that God has ordained us to do.

 

[Josiah]

Faith is not a gift to attain salvation. God makes us alive in Christ by unmerited, elective, grace. Faith is a gift to sustain our election and empower us to do the works that God has ordained us to do.

Yup..... radical Calvinists have a real problem with faith.

They tend to delete it entirely, which is how they come up with the "L" and "P" of TULIP. It's why MennoSota keeps insisting that if Christ died for all then all would be saved (he just deletes faith entirely)... how he can say we may be saved apart from faith (in the "P")....

But it's very biblical.... For God so loved the world (there goes the "U") that He gave His only begotten son (there goes the "L") that whosoever believes in Him (ah, FAITH is not irrelevant) will not perish...

It's called "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.
God's grace is on all, He unconditionally loves all, He desires all to be saved
Christ IS THE Savior, He came for all, He died for all (SAVIOR, not helper or inspiration or teacher)
Faith is the divine gift that apprehends/embraces/relies/trusts in that, and thus benefits from that.
It's the keystone of Christianity.
It's the defining teaching of Protestantism
It's pretty simply
John 3:16




.

 

[Lamb]

Faith is not a gift to attain salvation. God makes us alive in Christ by unmerited, elective, grace. Faith is a gift to sustain our election and empower us to do the works that God has ordained us to do.

Faith is not the cause of salvation. I agree with that.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Ephesians 2:8

 

[MennoSota]

Faith is not the cause of salvation. I agree with that.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Ephesians 2:8

Indeed. Faith sustains our salvation. Without faith we would not believe...we could not believe.

 

[Andrew]

These past two post agree

 

[Arsenios]

1. You are misquoting him.

IF ANY(one) is WILLING...
After Me to be coming...
Let him FIRST deny himself [REPENT]...
THEN take up his cross...
AND Follow Me...

Sorry, but those are Christ very words as quoted by Holy Scripture...

2. You just deleted the part of the verse where it says, "Jesus said to his disciples...."

Well you just deleted the rest of the Bible! .

So you agree that it is Christ speaking, so that is a start...

A "disciple" of Jesus is NOT one VOID of faith, of spiritual life, of the Holy Spirit, void of justification.

Oh... So you think Christ was speaking ONLY to them ABOUT themselves, is that it? OK... And you want to introduce your favorite theme of justification into the thread at this point... OK...

Actually, He is instructing them in their ministries to come...

That is why He says IF ANYONE IS WILLING...

You see, His disciples have already proved themselves willing...

This is not about justification but sanctification....

It is about neither - It is about ANYONE WILLING to follow Christ. It is about the role of human willingness to follow Christ... You seem to want to twist the conversation into your favorite subject, which is this:

He did not say this to dead, atheistic, enemies of God void of God and the Holy Spirit... He did not say this as how one saves self (and thus Jesus had no need to come, no need to suffer, no need to die, no need to rise),

It is not about this at all, but about the human willingness of ANY person to follow Christ...

Christ's very words, you know...

Hard to kick against them, you see...

He spoke to those already His DISCIPLES.

Yes, instructing them in their future discipling of ALL the nations about the nature of discipleship...

Film at 11...

Now, back to the subject of the thread...

I never left it...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Train your emotions
to like, love, and respect godly things
and
to see worldly ways in the proper light that God's goodness casts.
Training with the intention of learning sanity.
Because sins have made us all insane.
It is sins that train our emotions
into loving what is wicked

There was just something really good about this post...
This coming from one who knows insanity...
And who knows what is needed for sanity...
And has walked the talk of progressing therefrom...
From the harmful ones to those less so...

We train our emotions, I guess, as best we can, but it is God Who heals them...
And He normally does not unless we start training them in what is right...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Faith is not the cause of salvation. I agree with that.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Ephesians 2:8

This is the very ubra-literal translation:

For by the Grace you are existing having been saved through the Faith

And this not out of you [plural]...

Of God the Gift...

So that the two definite articles, one before Grace and one before Faith, refer to something definite...

THE Grace means the Grace of God...

THE Faith means the Faith of Christ...

The Faith that Christ discipled his Disciples to disciple to ALL the Nations...

So that it is THROUGH your obedience to this Faith that Christ Himself disciples through His Disciples that the Grace of God which actually SAVES us then comes...

And IF ANY IS WILLING to follow Christ in obedience to this discipling of His Faith, God is faithful...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Who gives assurance? Who convicts us?
Faith is all from God.
Does God give faith as a gracious gift or must you merit faith from God by your works so you can boast about it? Tell us, MC, about your merited faith you have created for yourself.

It appears that you really want Hebrews 11:1 to say that faith is a gift. I'd give you an A for effort and a F for accuracy and truth.

 

[MennoSota]

It appears that you really want Hebrews 11:1 to say that faith is a gift. I'd give you an A for effort and a F for accuracy and truth.

Who gives assurance and conviction? Is it your own feelings that assure you or convict you? If so, you will be tossed around like a beach ball in the ocean.
I let Hebrews 11:1 say what it says. I let Ephesians 2:8-9 say what it says.
The conclusion is obvious...even if you won't accept it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who gives assurance and conviction? Is it your own feelings that assure you or convict you? If so, you will be tossed around like a beach ball in the ocean.
I let Hebrews 11:1 say what it says. I let Ephesians 2:8-9 say what it says.
The conclusion is obvious...even if you won't accept it.

Perhaps it is a reading comprehension issue for you. The verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word gift is not in the verse. No mention of giving is in the verse. If you want to believe that God gives faith then you'll need to find a different verse for that purpose.

 

[MennoSota]

Perhaps it is a reading comprehension issue for you. The verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word gift is not in the verse. No mention of giving is in the verse. If you want to believe that God gives faith then you'll need to find a different verse for that purpose.

MC, do you imagine Hebrews 11:1 lives in a vacuum bubble?

 

[Josiah]

Sorry, but those are Christ very words as quoted by Holy Scripture...

I can't find any such translation.... and I looked it up in a Greek/English work and can't see that either.... but let's move on.



What's "telling" is that you entirely deleted the first part of the sentence.... You just deleted the part of the verse where it says, "Jesus said to his disciples...." The verse is addressed to BELIEVERS, DISCIPLES, those WITH faith, WITH life, WITH the Holy Spirit, WITH justification..... "to his disciples" not "to the unbelievers."

Thus, your whole point is discredited. You are simply mis-applying the verse. It has nothing to do with justification, with how dead, atheistic, enemies of God void of spiritual life, void of faith, void of the Holy Spirit, how they COME to have those things. This verse is not speaking to such and thus has nothing to do with justification, it is speaking to those WITH those things and thus is about sanctification/discipleship

So you agree that it is Christ speaking...

To the DISCIPLES.

You simply choose to delete those words so as to apply it to an entirely different audience, and entirely different subject.




.

 

[Arsenios]

I can't find any such translation.... and I looked it up in a Greek/English work and can't see that either....
.

Matthew 16:24

ei tis thele opisw mou elthein

The first three words say: IF ANY IS WILLING

The second three say: AFTER ME TO FOLLOW

Christ's very Own Words...

He did not say, as you argued, "If any OF YOU are willing..."

You assumed that because He was talking to them he was only talking about them, when He was talking about discipleship, which they had already been receiving for three years, but had not yet themselves been discipling to others... Christ is here discipling their future discipling of others...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, do you imagine Hebrews 11:1 lives in a vacuum bubble?

The verse says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." The word gift is not in the verse. No mention of giving is in the verse. If you want to believe that God gives faith then you'll need to find a different verse for that purpose.