Calvinism Vs Arminian

Arsenios

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So human will is greater than God's will in salvation.
Seems like 2 Peter 3:9 is just a wish from God that doesn't come true and not a will.

Here is the thing, Menno - God already knows what you will do...
And He does desire all men to come to Knowledge of the Truth...

But here is the rub, you see...

YOU do NOT KNOW if YOU will come to such knowledge...
God could have just gone ahead and saved all those He foreknew would choose Him...
But ALL will be tried so that THEY will come to KNOW...
To know in their own skin and sin...
That they will know who they are...
And what they will do at crunch time...

A diamond is not made without great heat and pressure...
And a Saint is not forged apart from trials...
As you, of all people, should know...
Job sure knew...

We are given this life that we will know...
From the life that we live in this life...
That we belong where we end up...
Whether in the Heavens with God's Grace...
Or in the Lake of Fire far from His Grace...
We will not be able to blame anyone other than ourselves for the outcome...
And there will be an outcome according to our deeds...
And by our deeds will we be judged by God...
Who already knows our deeds to come...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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Andrew

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MoreCoffee

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Oh my!

MennoSota! You're becoming like Josiah! ;)

The response of Calvinists at the Canons of Don't. See if you agree.
The Canons of Dort are likewise confined to five points or 'Heads of Doctrine,' and exhibit what is technically called the Calvinistic system—first positively, then negatively, in the rejection of the Arminian errors.992*Each Head of Doctrine (subdivided into Articles) is subscribed by the Dutch and foreign delegates.

FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE.

Of Divine Predestination.—Since all men sinned in Adam and lie under the curse [according to the Augustinian system held by all the Reformers], God would have done no injustice if he had left them to their merited punishment; but in his infinite mercy he provided a salvation through the gospel of Christ, that those who believe in him may not perish, but have eternal life. That some receive the gift of faith from God and others not, proceeds from God's eternal decree of election and reprobation.

520

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, he has, out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of his own will, chosen from the whole human race, which has fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom he from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and the foundation of salvation. These elect, though neither better nor more deserving than others, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by him, and bestow upon them true faith, conversion, justification and sanctification, perseverance to the end, and final glory (Eph. i. 4, 5, 6;*Rom. viii. 30).

Election is absolute and unconditional. It is not founded upon foreseen faith and holiness, as the prerequisite condition on which it depended; on the contrary, it is the fountain of faith, holiness, and eternal life itself. God has chosen us, not*because*we are holy, but to the*end*that we should be holy (Eph. i. 4;*Rom. ix. 11–13;*Acts xiii. 38). As God is unchangeable, so his election is unchangeable, and the elect can neither be cast away nor their number be diminished. The sense and certainty of election is a constant stimulus to humility and gratitude.

The non-elect are simply left to the just condemnation of their own sins. This is the decree of reprobation, which by no means makes God the author of sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but declares him to be an awful, irreprehensible, and righteous judge and avenger (Cat.*Ch. I. Art. 15).

SECOND HEAD OF DOCTRINE.

Of the Death of Christ.*[Limited Atonement.]—According to the sovereign counsel of God, the saving efficacy of the atoning death of Christ extends to all the elect [and to them only], so as to bring them infallibly to salvation. But, intrinsically, the sacrifice and satisfaction of Christ is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world. This death derives its infinite value and dignity from these considerations; because the person who submitted to it was not only really man and perfectly holy, but also the only-begotten Son of God, of the same eternal and infinite essence with the Father and Holy Spirit, which qualifications were necessary*521to constitute him a Saviour for us; and because it was attended with a sense of the wrath and curse of God due to us for sin.

Moreover the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel.

And, whereas many who are called by the gospel do not repent nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief; this is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but is wholly to be imputed to themselves.993

THIRD AND FOURTH HEADS OF DOCTRINE.

Of the Corruption of Man, his Conversion to God, and the Manner thereof.—Man was originally formed after the image of God. His understanding was adorned with a true and saving knowledge of his Creator, and of spiritual things; his heart and will were upright, all his affections pure, and the whole Man was holy; but revolting from God by the instigation of the devil, and abusing the freedom of his own will, he forfeited these excellent gifts, and on the contrary entailed*522on himself blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, and perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in [all] his affections.

Man after the fall begat children in his own likeness. A corrupt stock produced a corrupt offspring. Hence all the posterity of Adam, Christ only excepted, have derived corruption from their original parent, not by imitation, as the Pelagians of old asserted, but by the propagation of a vicious nature in consequence of a just judgment of God.

Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and are by nature children of wrath, incapable of any saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto; and, without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, nor to dispose themselves to reformation.

What, therefore, neither the light of nature nor the law could do, that God performs by the operation of his Holy Spirit through the word or ministry of reconciliation: which is the glad tidings concerning the Messiah, by means whereof it hath pleased God to save such as believe, as well under the Old as under the New Testament.

As many as are called by the gospel are unfeignedly called; for God hath most earnestly and truly declared in his Word what will be acceptable to him, namely, that all who are called should comply with the invitation. He, moreover, seriously promises eternal life and rest to as many as shall come to him, and believe on him.

It is not the fault of the gospel, nor of Christ offered therein, nor of God, who calls men by the gospel, and confers upon them various gifts, that those who are called by the ministry of the Word refuse to come and be converted. The fault lies in themselves.

But that others who are called by the gospel obey the call must be wholly ascribed to God, who, as he hath chosen his own from eternity in Christ, so he calls them effectually in time, confers upon them faith and repentance, rescues them from the power of darkness, and translates them into the kingdom of his own Son, that they may show forth the praises of him who hath called them out of darkness into his marvelous light; and may glory not in themselves but in the Lord, according to the testimony of the Apostles in various places.

Faith is therefore the gift of God, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure, but because*523it is in reality conferred, breathed, and infused into him; nor even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should, by the exercise of his own free will, consent to the terms of salvation, and actually believe in Christ; but because he who works in man both to will and to do, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe and the act of believing also.

FIFTH HEAD OF DOCRINE.

Of the Perseverance of the Saints.—Whom God calls, according to his purpose, to the communion of his Son our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he delivers also from the dominion and slavery of sin in this life; though not altogether from the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh, so long as they continue in this world.

By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and the temptations of sin and of the world, those who are converted could not persevere in a state of grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.

Of this preservation of the elect to salvation, and of their perseverance in the faith, true believers for themselves may and do obtain assurance according to the measure of their faith, whereby they arrive at the certain persuasion that they ever will continue true and living members of the Church; and that they experience forgiveness of sins, and will at last inherit eternal life.

This certainty of perseverance, however, is so far from exciting in believers a spirit of pride, or of rendering them carnally secure, that, on the contrary, it is the real source of humility, filial reverence, true piety, patience in every tribulation, fervent prayers, constancy in suffering and in confessing the truth, and of solid rejoicing in God; so that the consideration of this benefit should serve as an incentive to the serious and constant practice of gratitude and good works, as appears from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.

In opposition to the Canons of Dort, Episcopius prepared a lengthy defense of the Arminian Articles and a confession of faith in Dutch, 1621, and in Latin, 1622. It claims no binding symbolical authority, and advocates liberty and toleration.994

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.ix.iii.vi.html
 

Andrew

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Oh my!

MennoSota! You're becoming like Josiah! ;)
Here Menno is saying that we are either Calvinists or Arminian depending on our views, so he gives us the 5 points of Arminian belief opposed to Calvinists TULIP belief. I'm not too sure if Menno is a Calvinists anymore since he denies John Calvins belief that the gate of Salvation is open to all men.
 

MoreCoffee

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Here Menno is saying that we are either Calvinists or Arminian depending on our views, so he gives us the 5 points of Arminian belief opposed to Calvinists TULIP belief. I'm not too sure if Menno is a Calvinists anymore since he denies John Calvins belief that the gate of Salvation is open to all men.

I meant only that he is writing LONG!!! posts :p
 

Andrew

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MennoSota

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So you disagree with John Calvin.
I guess so, if that's Calvin's statement. Perhaps the context around the quote would clarify what he meant, but standing alone, with no context, I disagree. Does it surprise you that a Reformed person could disagree with a short quote from Calvin? Do you imagine that I view Calvin as a god?
 

MennoSota

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Oh my!

MennoSota! You're becoming like Josiah! ;)
It appears you all need church conferences to cling to so I did what you do in multiple threads. Read them like I read your posts...
 

MennoSota

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Here is the thing, Menno - God already knows what you will do...
And He does desire all men to come to Knowledge of the Truth...

But here is the rub, you see...

YOU do NOT KNOW if YOU will come to such knowledge...
God could have just gone ahead and saved all those He foreknew would choose Him...
But ALL will be tried so that THEY will come to KNOW...
To know in their own skin and sin...
That they will know who they are...
And what they will do at crunch time...

A diamond is not made without great heat and pressure...
And a Saint is not forged apart from trials...
As you, of all people, should know...
Job sure knew...

We are given this life that we will know...
From the life that we live in this life...
That we belong where we end up...
Whether in the Heavens with God's Grace...
Or in the Lake of Fire far from His Grace...
We will not be able to blame anyone other than ourselves for the outcome...
And there will be an outcome according to our deeds...
And by our deeds will we be judged by God...
Who already knows our deeds to come...


Arsenios
Two things.
One, what are you talking about?
But ALL will be tried so that THEY will come to KNOW...
Two, sounds like Jesus didn't have to die for you. You just repent enough and God will graciously let you in on your own.
 

Andrew

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I guess so, if that's Calvin's statement. Perhaps the context around the quote would clarify what he meant, but standing alone, with no context, I disagree. Does it surprise you that a Reformed person could disagree with a short quote from Calvin? Do you imagine that I view Calvin as a god?
Here is the content Menno. Calvin on Salvation 101.....

Excerpt from Calvin's commentary on Acts 2:21

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord he shall be saved."


--------------------------------

21.*Whosoever shall call upon*An excellent place. For as God doth prick us forward like sluggish *****, with threatenings and terrors to seek salvation, se, after that he hath brought darkness upon the face of heaven and earth, yet doth he show a means whereby salvation may shine before our eyes, to wit, if we shall call upon him. For we must diligently note this circumstance. If God should promise salvation simply, it were a great matter; but it is a far greater when as he promiseth the same amidst manifold dungeons of death. Whilst that (saith he) all things shall be out of order, and the fear of destruction shall possess all things, only call upon me, and ye shall be saved. Therefore, howsoever man be swallowed up ill the gulf of miseries, yet is there set before him a way to escape. We must also note the universal word,*whosoever*For God admitteth all men unto himself without exception, and by this means doth he invite them to salvation, as Paul gathereth in the tenth chapter to the Romans, and as the prophet had set it down before,

“Thou, Lord, which hearest the prayer,*
unto thee shall all flesh come,”*
(Ps 65:2.)

Therefore, forasmuch as no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. I speak of all unto whom God doth make himself manifest by the gospel. But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone. And when as our salvation is placed in calling upon God, there is nothing in the mean season taken from faith, forasmuch as this invocation is grounded on faith alone. There is also another circumstance no less worthy the noting; in that the prophet doth signify, that the calling upon God doth properly appertain and agree unto the last days. For although he would be called upon in all ages, notwithstanding, since that he showed himself to be a Father in Christ, we have the more easy access unto him. Which thing ought both the more to embolden us, and to take from us all sluggishness. As he himself doth also reason, that by this privilege our forwardness to pray is doubled to us: “Hitherto have ye asked nothing in nay name; ask, and ye shall receive;” as if he should say, theretofore, although I did not yet appear to be a mediator and advocate in the faith, yet did ye pray; but now, when you shall have me to be your patron, with how much more courage ought ye to do that?

---------------------------
 

MennoSota

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Here is the content Menno. Calvin on Salvation 101.....

Excerpt from Calvin's commentary on Acts 2:21

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord he shall be saved."


--------------------------------

21.*Whosoever shall call upon*An excellent place. For as God doth prick us forward like sluggish *****, with threatenings and terrors to seek salvation, se, after that he hath brought darkness upon the face of heaven and earth, yet doth he show a means whereby salvation may shine before our eyes, to wit, if we shall call upon him. For we must diligently note this circumstance. If God should promise salvation simply, it were a great matter; but it is a far greater when as he promiseth the same amidst manifold dungeons of death. Whilst that (saith he) all things shall be out of order, and the fear of destruction shall possess all things, only call upon me, and ye shall be saved. Therefore, howsoever man be swallowed up ill the gulf of miseries, yet is there set before him a way to escape. We must also note the universal word,*whosoever*For God admitteth all men unto himself without exception, and by this means doth he invite them to salvation, as Paul gathereth in the tenth chapter to the Romans, and as the prophet had set it down before,

“Thou, Lord, which hearest the prayer,*
unto thee shall all flesh come,”*
(Ps 65:2.)

Therefore, forasmuch as no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. I speak of all unto whom God doth make himself manifest by the gospel. But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone. And when as our salvation is placed in calling upon God, there is nothing in the mean season taken from faith, forasmuch as this invocation is grounded on faith alone. There is also another circumstance no less worthy the noting; in that the prophet doth signify, that the calling upon God doth properly appertain and agree unto the last days. For although he would be called upon in all ages, notwithstanding, since that he showed himself to be a Father in Christ, we have the more easy access unto him. Which thing ought both the more to embolden us, and to take from us all sluggishness. As he himself doth also reason, that by this privilege our forwardness to pray is doubled to us: “Hitherto have ye asked nothing in nay name; ask, and ye shall receive;” as if he should say, theretofore, although I did not yet appear to be a mediator and advocate in the faith, yet did ye pray; but now, when you shall have me to be your patron, with how much more courage ought ye to do that?

---------------------------

So the context is in relation to Peters quotation of Joel.
Acts 2:16-21
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
Thus if a person does not believe nor call on the Lord, they will not be saved.
The call goes out to all. All who hear may be chosen and may believe, but many will not believe and will be judged because they do not believe. Romans 9 presents this truth as well.
Thanks for sharing the context and how it fits in the commentary surrounding Acts 2:21.
From Calvin:
But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone. And when as our salvation is placed in calling upon God, there is nothing in the mean season taken from faith, forasmuch as this invocation is grounded on faith alone.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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The call goes out to all. All who hear may be chosen and may believe, but many will not believe and will be judged because they do not believe.

How is this NOT what anyone else has been saying???
 

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Andrew

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Good question. How is it that people deny God's election, choosing and predestination?
No body is denying Gods Elect, Chosen, or destiny for his believers
 

Andrew

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But like as those which call upon the name of the Lord are sure of salvation, so we must think that, without the same, we are thrice miserable and undone. And when as our salvation is placed in calling upon God, there is nothing in the mean season taken from faith, forasmuch as this invocation is grounded on faith alone.
this is a great quote! Amen!
 

Arsenios

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Two things.
One, what are you talking about?

Two, sounds like Jesus didn't have to die for you. You just repent enough and God will graciously let you in on your own.

We were discussing foreknowledge that God already has but we do not, yet will acquire by our lives freely chosen and lived...


Arsenios
 

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No body is denying Gods Elect, Chosen, or destiny for his believers
So you shouldn't deny that his election, choosing and predestination is limited rather than unlimited. If it was unlimited then all would be saved.
To atone means to make amends, to repair a wrong. Biblically, it means to remove the guilt of man.
Does God remove the guilt of all men or is it only the guilt of all those whom God saves that have their guilt removed?
 

MennoSota

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We were discussing foreknowledge that God already has but we do not, yet will acquire by our lives freely chosen and lived...


Arsenios
? You will acquire foreknowledge by freely choosing it?
God does more than foreknew. God predestined. God does not leave things to the random choice of men, having foreknown the possible choices. God predestined the choice that will be made because God chose whom He would give faith.
 

Josiah

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.

Foreknowledge and predestination are NOT the same and must not be confused....

They are entirely different.

Foreknowledge:
To KNOW something before it happens. For God this is absolute, for us it can still be pretty certain. I know the sun will rise tomorrow.

Predestination: To CAUSE something to happen. It is an ACTIVE thing. I will not cause the sun to rise tomorrow.



Does the Bible say God foreknows who will have faith? Yes, He knows everything.
Does the Bbile say God PREDESTINES those who will have faith? Yes, He causes faith.



Now, yes, a tiny few hyper-Calvinists infuse this with the (horrible and wrong) Greek philosophy of FATE, and they turn what is pure Gospel to terrifying Law, and make the whole point the opposite of what Scripture says, that God predestines MOST people to eternally fry in hell. It's a point rejected by classic, orthodox Christianity (and probably 90% of Calvinists) but it is the "U" of TULIP, the whole point is that God CAUSES people to eternally fry in hell because God wants that, "gets off" on that, is "glorified" by that. Some modern hyper-Calvinists wiggle on this (so horrible and unbiblical it is) by saying that God only PASSIVELY predestines them. But of course, that's an oxymoron, it is impossible to "actively cause passively." It's just a way to use a word from TULIP while reversing ti's meaning, trying to evade the horrible teaching of TULIP that they know is wrong but don't want to admit.



- Josiah




.
 
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