Saved from what?

[popsthebuilder]

It's possible to understand if you take the time and step away from your traditions.

I understand it fine as I have no traditional religion, nor a religious background. It still seems like a pointless question is all. What are you really getting at? Either you are saying that God isn't omniscient, or your saying that some traditional religions are wrong. So stop beating around the bush and come out with it.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Hammster]

I understand it fine as I have no traditional religion, nor a religious background. It still seems like a pointless question is all. What are you really getting at? Either you are saying that God isn't omniscient, or your saying that some traditional religions are wrong. So stop beating around the bush and come out with it.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

You might want to read the opening paragraph again where I state that God is omniscient.

If anything, those who believe salvation can be lost are denying God's omniscience. They act as if God doesn't know someone will "lose" their salvation. So He saves them from hell only to be disappointed later.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You might want to read the opening paragraph again where I state that God is omniscient.

If anything, those who believe salvation can be lost are denying God's omniscience. They act as if God doesn't know someone will "lose" their salvation. So He saves them from hell only to be disappointed later.

No, on the contrary, only a fool would act as if they knew the inner workings of God or its reasoning. Likewise only a lofty fool would assume that they could be saved and then sin with no repercussions.
The reality is that they were most likely never saved whatsoever. And just assumed such due to faulty doctrine.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Hammster]

No, on the contrary, only a fool would act as if they knew the inner workings of God or its reasoning. Likewise only a lofty fool would assume that they could be saved and then sin with no repercussions.
The reality is that they were most likely never saved whatsoever. And just assumed such due to faulty doctrine.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I agree that they were never saved to begin with.

 

[Alithis]

You might want to read the opening paragraph again where I state that God is omniscient.

If anything, those who believe salvation can be lost are denying God's omniscience. They act as if God doesn't know someone will "lose" their salvation. So He saves them from hell only to be disappointed later.

actually they are agreeing with the lord JEsus

the seed is sown on many soils and some receive it gladly but their stony hard hearts are do not submit to his work in their heart to transform them they refuse the oil of his Holy Spirit and they have no root in them and they wither and die when the heat comes on -yet at the moment they received the Gospel they were saved ..
but we are not saved to a meandering existence of drifting along doing as the flesh pleases but we are saved unto obedience .. those that then ,having been saved, turn back to disobedience, will not arrive at the destination the straight narrow way leads to .for the rebellious will not inherit the kingdom of heaven . it is not denying his omniscience to believe what he has said is true, for he has spoken from his omniscience .

i don't believe we can lose our salvation accidently ..only by willful neglect and disobedience .
the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a parable about believers and a dire warning to those who having believed .. then refuse to lay down their own will and seek God continually to be continually filled with his Holy Spirit .
there is no neutral benign ground in the battle for our souls .. once we enter into the promises of the lord _as the scriptures display to us - the enemy will ever try to drive us out of them again . many will find in their neglect of seeking the face of God to ever know him to ever be filed of his Holy Spirit will find when he returns their lamp is empty and will not light up at his return .. though in times past they were filled .. (those 5 foolish virgins had lamps and the lamps were in times past filed with the oil of the Holy Spirit )they did not walk worthy of their calling in him ..they slid back and walked as the world around them and the lord has no delight in those that do so . and the lord Jesus said .. when the bride groom comes they will be found wanting and they will be SHUT OUT .

it is a dire warning to all the church for in the parable .. a whopping 50% of the church is found unready and is SHUT OUT .. -there is a reason there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for they will know they have only their love of this world and refusal to hear the shepherd and obey him

you wont ever convince me that the lord JEsus does not mean exactly what he says and i will never cease to agree with him as one who means what he says

the saved are as trees but the tree that does not bring forth fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire -

 

[Hammster]

There's only one group saved in the parable of the sower and seeds. It's the one where fruit is produced. There's no fruitless salvation.

 

[psalms 91]

actually they are agreeing with the lord JEsus

the seed is sown on many soils and some receive it gladly but their stony hard hearts are do not submit to his work in their heart to transform them they refuse the oil of his Holy Spirit and they have no root in them and they wither and die when the heat comes on -yet at the moment they received the Gospel they were saved ..
but we are not saved to a meandering existence of drifting along doing as the flesh pleases but we are saved unto obedience .. those that then ,having been saved, turn back to disobedience, will not arrive at the destination the straight narrow way leads to .for the rebellious will not inherit the kingdom of heaven . it is not denying his omniscience to believe what he has said is true, for he has spoken from his omniscience .

i don't believe we can lose our salvation accidently ..only by willful neglect and disobedience .
the parable of the wise and foolish virgins is a parable about believers and a dire warning to those who having believed .. then refuse to lay down their own will and seek God continually to be continually filled with his Holy Spirit .
there is no neutral benign ground in the battle for our souls .. once we enter into the promises of the lord _as the scriptures display to us - the enemy will ever try to drive us out of them again . many will find in their neglect of seeking the face of God to ever know him to ever be filed of his Holy Spirit will find when he returns their lamp is empty and will not light up at his return .. though in times past they were filled .. (those 5 foolish virgins had lamps and the lamps were in times past filed with the oil of the Holy Spirit )they did not walk worthy of their calling in him ..they slid back and walked as the world around them and the lord has no delight in those that do so . and the lord Jesus said .. when the bride groom comes they will be found wanting and they will be SHUT OUT .

it is a dire warning to all the church for in the parable .. a whopping 50% of the church is found unready and is SHUT OUT .. -there is a reason there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for they will know they have only their love of this world and refusal to hear the shepherd and obey him

you wont ever convince me that the lord JEsus does not mean exactly what he says and i will never cease to agree with him as one who means what he says

the saved are as trees but the tree that does not bring forth fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire -

Exactly, stan loves the once saved always saved doctrine

 

[Hammster]

Exactly, stan loves the once saved always saved doctrine

Stan?

Actually, Satan loves the teaching that salvation can be lost because it makes Jesus a liar and divides the Godhead.

 

[psalms 91]

And OSDAS makes people comfortable in their sin and satan will do nothing to disturb that.

 

[Hammster]

And OSDAS makes people comfortable in their sin and satan will do nothing to disturb that.

Anyone comfortable in their sin isn't saved. It's an absurdity.

 

[Alithis]

Anyone comfortable in their sin isn't saved. It's an absurdity.

but that does not mean they were not saved at one time ..only that they have left the straight and narrow way and presently need to repent and get back on it .
having started out on the way to salvation ..they looked back .
lots wife is recorded for just this warning .. all she had t do to be saved was continue on the road . but she stopped and looked back (desiring to go back ) and she perished .
and so it is with those who once having believed (and by faith began the road to salvation) then looked back desiring to return to their sin .. they too will perish in it unless they repent .

the doctrine of once saved always saved is simply and insidious presentation of nice sounding words which tickle the ears of those who do not wish to hear sound doctrine

 

[Hammster]

but that does not mean they were not saved at one time ..only that they have left the straight and narrow way and presently need to repent and get back on it .
having started out on the way to salvation ..they looked back .
lots wife is recorded for just this warning .. all she had t do to be saved was continue on the road . but she stopped and looked back (desiring to go back ) and she perished .
and so it is with those who once having believed (and by faith began the road to salvation) then looked back desiring to return to their sin .. they too will perish in it unless they repent .

the doctrine of once saved always saved is simply and insidious presentation of nice sounding words which tickle the ears of those who do not wish to hear sound doctrine

Again, in your view not only is Jesus a liar, but you divide the Godhead. You must say that Christ lied when He said He'd lose none the Father had given Him, and that He has lost some creates a rift in the Trinity.

 

[Hammster]

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. - John 6:39

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. - John 10:28-29

13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.
14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. - Matthew 18:13-14

This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: "Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one." - John 18:9

 

[Alithis]

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. - John 6:39

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. - John 10:28-29

13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.
14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. - Matthew 18:13-14

This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: "Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one." - John 18:9

not lost .. not taken .. but it does not mention ..wilful disobedience where one chooses to turn away .
its not his will that any should perish -does not mean none will perish ..
after all its not my will that my socks sit on the floor and remain unwashed, but unless i take them to the washer .. there they will sit ,stinking .. until some one burns them .
and since John 18:9 states that it was to fulfil.. then it is past tense as having been fulfilled already .

i think it's grasping somewhat .

we know the foolish virgins in the parable are believers... as are the wise . but only those full with the oil of the lord are those who are found ready .

 

[Hammster]

not lost .. not taken .. but it does not mention ..wilful disobedience where one chooses to turn away .
its not his will that any should perish -does not mean none will perish ..
after all its not my will that my socks sit on the floor and remain unwashed, but unless i take them to the washer .. there they will sit ,stinking .. until some one burns them .
and since John 18:9 states that it was to fulfil.. then it is past tense as having been fulfilled already .

i think it's grasping somewhat .

we know the foolish virgins in the parable are believers... as are the wise . but only those full with the oil of the lord are those who are found ready .

And again you ignore the fact that Christ is a Good Shepherd and we are His sheep. The sheep are given to Him by His Father. To say He would lose any for any reason is making Him a failure.

 

[Alithis]

And again you ignore the fact that Christ is a Good Shepherd and we are His sheep. The sheep are given to Him by His Father. To say He would lose any for any reason is making Him a failure.

no one is saying HE loses them . your adding that in tu tut .they lose themselves by wil, by disobedience . shepherds in those days did not drive the sheep .. they lead the sheep and guided the sheep by voice .
one can become a sheep of the fold but if one chooses to ignore the shepherd's voice when the door o the fold is closed for the last time .. they will find themselves outside of it .
the lord jesus said my sheep hear AND follow .. many hear and begin to follow then turn back and so will not arrive at the destination they think they are going ..they have turned to go another way, we will arrive at the home of the one we follow .turn back from following and we will not end up at the lords House . even though we set out to at the start .just like the parable of the man plowing his field.. all the parables are dire warnings to us all.

but since we have become circular in argument .. let's return to the motive of the OP

what is your reason for asking and what is your answer ?

saved from what ?

if i redirect my answer it changes the entire course of the topic
ie - we are saved from .. not knowing the truth of the lord JEsus and the hope of eternal life in him..

 

[Hammster]

Now you are just making stuff up. Jesus never said that most of His sheep would follow, and the ones that didn't we're screwed. In fact, He says a good shepherd will go after one who strays. It's best if you just stick to the scripture.

 

[Hammster]

As to the OP, the point is to show that those who believe that Christ "saves" those whom He won't actually save are open theists in practice.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Now that wasn't so hard was it?
If a man is saved from Hell, then (through unrepentant sin) is thrown back in, he still burns.

Then in that analogy, we are in hell when we are saved?

Explain your math.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Again, in your view not only is Jesus a liar, but you divide the Godhead. You must say that Christ lied when He said He'd lose none the Father had given Him, and that He has lost some creates a rift in the Trinity.

Ummmmm... Not quite what he said - (speaking of the disciples with him in the garden):
"Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." (Jn. 18: 8-9, emphasis mine)