COMMUNION: Does "is" mean "is?" Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical

[Arsenios]

Which denominations have a "valid" Holy Communion?


Here's a typical Lutheran perspective....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zALcHtqWT_o

Thanks, Josiah...

The Orthodox Faith of Christ knows what it has...

It does not presume to know what you may or may not have...

Nor what any other person or group may or may not have...

We live in peace...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Arsenios,

I'm glad the EOC regards the Eucharist in a Lutheran Church to be fully valid. The RCC of course does not. I (and it seems the pastor in this video) regard the Sacrament in your church as fully valid, certainly my own pastor does.

Blessings to you and yours in this New Year...



- Josiah

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios,

I'm glad the EOC regards the Eucharist in a Lutheran Church to be fully valid.

- Josiah

We do not...

We know what we have...

We do not presume to know whatever it might be that the Lutherans have...

It is a big difference...

Blessings to you and all who are yours for the New Year, my Brother...

If you were within our Communion, it would be a different matter...

Because you are not, we can only offer our Truth...

And not presume to judge yours...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

We do not...

Then of course you do judge.

So, we regard your Eucharist as valid but you do not so regard ours. Understood. It's the same between Catholic and Lutheran.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

We do not...

Then of course you do judge...

Careful there, brother. The importance of context - This is what Arsenios said:

We do not...

We know what we have...

We do not presume to know whatever it might be that the Lutherans have...

It is a big difference...

Blessings to you and all who are yours for the New Year, my Brother...

If you were within our Communion, it would be a different matter...

Because you are not, we can only offer our Truth...

And not presume to judge yours...


Arsenios

Much more than simply "We do not..."

 

[MennoSota]

If y'all are adopted by God and God has chosen to make you alive in Christ, y'all are invited to the table of remembrance.

 

[Arsenios]

We do not presume to judge...

We do not...

We know what we have...

We do not presume to know whatever it might be that the Lutherans have...

Then of course you do judge.

Can you not read nor remember?

So, we regard your Eucharist as valid but you do not so regard ours

We regard your Eucharist as a matter between you and God...

We do not presume to judge your Eucharist at all...

We regard it as a pious practice you engage in with God...

"Judge not lest you be judged..."

We happen to believe the Bible we provided for you...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I'm glad the EOC regards the Eucharist in a Lutheran Church to be valid.

We do not

Then then EOC does not consider the Lutheran Eucharist to be valid.

Okay.




.

 

[Arsenios]

Then then EOC does not consider the Lutheran Eucharist to be valid.

Okay.
.

We do not regard it as valid...
Nor do we regard it as not valid...

Your Eucharist is not our business...
We do not presume to judge it...

You have judged OUR Communion...
To be valid in your understanding...

Our Eucharist is not factored by your judgement of it...
It is solely a matter between God and us...

So your judging our Communion has no relevance...
Nor do we presume to judge your Communion...

We do not seek human approval of our Communion...
Our Eucharist is God's Gift to us...

It is not a matter of human approval...
Nor, I should think, is yours...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

We do not regard it as valid...
Nor do we regard it as not valid...

Your Eucharist is not our business...
We do not presume to judge it...

That always sounds so conciliatory and reasonable when an EO person says it. It apparently is some sort of theological concept that is standard in EO circles. However, it isn't what the church actually says and does. That is unfortunate.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Then then EOC does not consider the Lutheran Eucharist to be valid.

Okay.




.

Josiah, that's not what he said. I'm not going to let you spin this one.

 

[RichWh1]

What makes the Eucharist valid? To me, it's all a matter of interpretation.
Do we break bread in memory of Jesus or do we recreate His body and Break it again?
What should unite Christians seems to be dividing them. All Christians are to 'do this in memory' of Jesus so why can we not agree on what it is and means?


Sent from my Z557BL using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

Josiah, that's not what he said.
I'm not going to let you spin this one.

Thank-you...

Sometimes it feels like I am talking to an answering machine with but one outgoing message, no matter what I say...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

What makes the Eucharist valid? To me, it's all a matter of interpretation.
Do we break bread in memory of Jesus or do we recreate His body and Break it again?

Where did you get the idea that those are the only two choices?

 

[Arsenios]

That always sounds so conciliatory and reasonable when an EO person says it.

It is just the truth...

It apparently is some sort of theological concept that is standard in EO circles.

Truth is standard, you are right...

I]However, it isn't what the church actually says and does. [/I]That is unfortunate.

Both sides here, and elsewhere, try to drag the Orthodox onto their side against the other in this very familial spat...

We do not affirm much of what each side affirms...

Were they to arise from Orthodox Clergy and proclaim their views of "valid", for instance, they would be either ignored or anathematized if their teaching spread...

But these are for the most part not organic to our Communion...

We do not strut about proclaiming our superior relationship with God in the Eucharist...

To do so would be to plunge this Communion into darkness...

Our Treasury is humility and obedience to Holy Tradition...

In the Lutheran Tradition, Lutherans have a relationship with Christ...

It is not our relationship with Christ as far as we can know if it might be...

But we simply cannot presume to pronounce our judgement upon another's relationship with Christ...

We cannot tell Protestants, for instance, that we reject Latin Doctrines too, so become Orthodox...

I used to think this was a good way to convert the Protestant faithful...

And I was wrong...

And pronouncing "valid" and "invalid" on other Communions' relationship with God in their Eucharist would for us simply be presumptuous...

You are not our Servants - Nor are we yours...

We have been a closed Communion for 2000 years...

All that we need and all that we proclaim is found within our Communion...

"For Lo I am with you unto the end of the Age..."


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Both sides here, and elsewhere, try to drag the Orthodox onto their side against the other in this very familial spat…

Maybe the Orthodox encourage that when they talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue.

 

[Arsenios]

Maybe the Orthodox encourage that when they talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue.

To rabid partisans, there is no objectivity...

It slaps them across their faces, and they call it partisan...

They are seeing only through their partisan spectacles...

So they accuse objectivity of talking out of both sides of one's mouth...

Family spats are like that...

What?

Did you somehow NOT grow up in a dysfunctional family?

Hollywood is a monument to such families!


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

]To rabid partisans, there is no objectivity...

It slaps them across their faces, and they call it partisan...

They are seeing only through their partisan specticles...

So they accuse objectivity of talking out of both sides of one's mouth...

No, the EO churches, if not every member, actually do talk out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to the issue here. I understand that you either don't recognize that this is the case, or else you do not care to admit to it, but it is the fact of the matter.

 

[Josiah]

ImaginaryDay2


I commented that it seemed the EOC accepted the Lutheran Eucharist. He wrote back "We do not." The usual reading of that is that they do not accept it as valid. What I said is accurate.

Now, he went on to indicate that they don't officially regard it as invalid either, which is nice, but that doesn't change what I said: They don't regard it as valid.

It remains the same, exactly as I stated: Lutherans tend to regard the Orthodox Eucharist as valid but the Orthodox does not regard the Lutheran one as such. At least, according to Arsenios. IF I had posted, "The Orthodox regard the Lutheran Eucharist as invalid" that would be "spinning" it (as you publicly accuse) but that's not what I said, is it?



.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I commented that it seemed the EOC accepted the Lutheran Eucharist. The usual reading of that is that they do not accept it as valid. What I said is accurate.

.

The above is what you said, correct?
Therefore my representation of what you said is accurate.
See what I did there?