Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[Josiah]

Scripture has been shared.

Yes. MANY Scriptures have been shared that flat-out CONTRADICT your dogma.

No. You have not shared even one Scripture that says anything about Christ dying ONLY for the church, the elect, the few - JUST them.



.

 

[pinacled]

Yes. MANY Scriptures have been shared that flat-out CONTRADICT your dogma.

No. You have not shared even one Scripture that says anything about Christ dying ONLY for the church, the elect, the few - JUST them.



.

The Word of our King is given in john 17.
Judas and the two fold sons of perdition are not the elect chosen, church.

You may of been deceived but keen eyes know better.

 

[Josiah]

The Word of our King is given in john 17.

Nowhere in John 17 does it state that Jesus died ONLY, exclusively, just for the church (and no one else).

 

[MennoSota]

Yes. MANY Scriptures have been shared that flat-out CONTRADICT your dogma.

No. You have not shared even one Scripture that says anything about Christ dying ONLY for the church, the elect, the few - JUST them.



.

Josiah your statement is false. I have explained the verses you think teach universalism. None of those verses contradict particular redemption.
I have shared multiple passages that express particular redemption. You reject them and cling to a belief that makes Jesus atonement ineffective because...humans trump God in your doctrine of salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Nowhere in John 17 does it state that Jesus died ONLY, exclusively, just for the church (and no one else).

Jesus never prays for the world to be saved. Your demand that the word "only" must be used is just silly. Let go of your crutch.

 

[MennoSota]

John 17:6

“I have manifested your name to the people*whom you gave me out of the world.*Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Particular redemption, Josiah.

 

[Andrew]

God has yet to judge the world, may God have mercy on us all

 

[pinacled]

Nowhere in John 17 does it state that Jesus died ONLY, exclusively, just for the church (and no one else).

["While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."]

As cited from our King. Who is it that is doomed in the world.?

 

[pinacled]

Nowhere in John 17 does it state that Jesus died ONLY, exclusively, just for the church (and no one else).

Revelation 14
["A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice:

“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."]


Our Lord is quite clear in warning about false teachers.

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus died, according to Matthew 1:21, to “save His people from their sins.” This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15, we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep? They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40). The truth that Jesus came for this specific reason is seen in both the Old and New Testaments. One of the greatest passages on the atonement in the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. In this passage alone, we see that He was “stricken for the transgression of God’s people” (Isaiah 53:8); that He would “justify many” because “He shall bear their iniquities” (Isaiah 53:11); and that He indeed “bore the sin of many” (Isaiah 53:12). These verses and many others talk about an atonement that was specific in whom it covered (God’s people), was substitutionary in nature (He actually bore their sins on the cross), and actually accomplished what God intended it to do (justify many). Clearly, here is a picture of an intentional, definite atonement. Christ died not simply to make justification a possibility but to actually justify those He died for. He died to save them, not to make them savable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...org/amp/limited-atonement.html

 

[pinacled]

Nowhere in John 17 does it state that Jesus died ONLY, exclusively, just for the church (and no one else).

yecheskel(ezekiel 34
Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: אוַיְהִ֥י דְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה אֵלַ֥י לֵאמֹֽר:
2"Son of man, prophesy concerning the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them, to the shepherds: So said the Lord God: Woe, shepherds of Israel who were shepherding themselves! Do not the shepherds shepherd the flocks? בבֶּן־אָדָ֕ם הִנָּבֵ֖א עַל־רוֹעֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל הִנָּבֵ֣א וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֩ אֲלֵיהֶ֨ם לָרֹעִ֜ים כֹּֽה־אָמַ֣ר | אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה ה֚וֹי רֹעֵ֚י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ אֲשֶׁ֚ר הָיוּ֙ רֹעִ֣ים אוֹתָ֔ם הֲל֣וֹא הַצֹּ֔אן יִרְע֖וּ הָֽרֹעִֽים:
3You eat the fat and you clothe yourselves with the wool; the fatlings you slaughter; the flocks you do not shepherd. גאֶת־הַחֵ֚לֶב תֹּאכֵ֙לוּ֙ וְאֶת־הַצֶּ֣מֶר תִּלְבָּ֔שׁוּ הַבְּרִיאָ֖ה תִּזְבָּ֑חוּ הַצֹּ֖אן לֹ֥א תִרְעֽוּ:
4The frail you did not strengthen, the sick you did not heal, the broken you did not bind, those astray you did not bring back, and the lost you did not seek, but with strength and with rigor you chastised them. דאֶת־הַנַּחְלוֹת֩ לֹ֨א חִזַּקְתֶּ֜ם וְאֶת־הַֽחוֹלָ֣ה לֹֽא־רִפֵּאתֶ֗ם וְלַנִּשְׁבֶּ֙רֶת֙ לֹ֣א חֲבַשְׁתֶּ֔ם וְאֶת־הַנִּדַּ֙חַת֙ לֹ֣א הֲשֵֽׁבֹתֶ֔ם וְאֶת־הָֽאֹבֶ֖דֶת לֹ֣א בִקַּשְׁתֶּ֑ם וּבְחָזְקָ֛ה רְדִיתֶ֥ם אֹתָ֖ם וּבְפָֽרֶךְ:
5They scattered because they had no shepherd, and they became prey for all the beasts of the field, and they scattered. הוַתְּפוּצֶ֖ינָה מִבְּלִ֣י רֹעֶ֑ה וַתִּֽהְיֶ֧ינָה לְאָכְלָ֛ה לְכָל־חַיַּ֥ת הַשָּׂדֶ֖ה וַתְּפוּצֶֽינָה:
6My flock strayed throughout all the mountains and upon every lofty hill, and upon the entire face of the land My flock scattered-and none searches or seeks. ויִשְׁגּ֚וּ צֹאנִי֙ בְּכָל־הֶ֣הָרִ֔ים וְעַ֖ל כָּל־גִּבְעָ֣ה רָמָ֑ה וְעַ֨ל כָּל־פְּנֵ֚י הָאָ֙רֶץ֙ נָפֹ֣צוּ צֹאנִ֔י וְאֵ֥ין דּוֹרֵ֖שׁ וְאֵ֥ין מְבַקֵּֽשׁ:
7Therefore, shepherds, hearken to the word of the Lord. זלָכֵ֣ן רֹעִ֔ים שִׁמְע֖וּ אֶת־דְּבַ֥ר יְהֹוָֽה:
8As I live, says the Lord God, I swear that because My flocks have become a prey, for My flocks have become food for all the beasts of the field because they have no shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flocks, and the shepherds shepherded themselves but they did not shepherd My flocks. חחַי־אָ֜נִי נְאֻ֣ם | אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה אִם־לֹ֣א יַ֣עַן הֱיֽוֹת צֹאנִ֣י | לָבַ֡ז וַתִּֽהְיֶינָה֩ צֹאנִ֨י לְאָכְלָ֜ה לְכָל־חַיַּ֚ת הַשָּׂדֶה֙ מֵאֵ֣ין רֹעֶ֔ה וְלֹֽא־דָֽרְשׁ֥וּ רֹעַ֖י אֶת־צֹאנִ֑י וַיִּרְע֚וּ הָֽרֹעִים֙ אוֹתָ֔ם וְאֶת־צֹאנִ֖י לֹ֥א רָעֽוּ:
9Therefore, you shepherds, hearken to the word of the Lord. טלָכֵן֙ הָֽרֹעִ֔ים שִׁמְע֖וּ דְּבַר־יְהֹוָֽה:
10So said the Lord God: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I shall demand My flocks from their hands, and I shall banish them from shepherding the flocks. The shepherds will no longer shepherd themselves, and I shall rescue My flocks from their mouth, and they will not be to them for food. יכֹּֽה־אָמַ֞ר אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה הִֽנְנִ֨י אֶל־הָֽרֹעִ֜ים וְֽדָרַשְׁתִּ֧י אֶת־צֹאנִ֣י מִיָּדָ֗ם וְהִשְׁבַּתִּים֙ מֵֽרְע֣וֹת צֹ֔אן וְלֹֽא־יִרְע֥וּ ע֛וֹד הָֽרֹעִ֖ים אוֹתָ֑ם וְהִצַּלְתִּ֚י צֹאנִי֙ מִפִּיהֶ֔ם וְלֹֽא־תִהְיֶ֥יןָ לָהֶ֖ם לְאָכְלָֽה:
11For so said the Lord God: Behold I am here, and I shall search for My flocks and I shall seek them out. יאכִּ֛י כֹּ֥ה אָמַ֖ר אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֑ה הִֽנְנִי־אָ֕נִי וְדָֽרַשְׁתִּ֥י אֶת־צֹאנִ֖י וּבִקַּרְתִּֽים:
12As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his separated flocks, so will I seek out My flocks, and I will save them from all the places where they have scattered on a cloudy and dark day. יבכְּבַקָּרַת֩ רֹעֶ֨ה עֶדְר֜וֹ בְּיוֹם־הֱיוֹת֚וֹ בְתֽוֹךְ צֹאנוֹ֙ נִפְרָשׁ֔וֹת כֵּ֖ן אֲבַקֵּ֣ר אֶת־צֹאנִ֑י וְהִצַּלְתִּ֣י אֶתְהֶ֗ם מִכָּל־הַמְּקוֹמֹת֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר נָפֹ֣צוּ שָׁ֔ם בְּי֥וֹם עָנָ֖ן וַֽעֲרָפֶֽל:
13I will take them out from among the nations, and I will gather them from the lands and bring them to their land, and I will shepherd them to the mountains of Israel, by the streams and in all the dwellings of the land. יגוְהֽוֹצֵאתִ֣ים מִן־הָֽעַמִּ֗ים וְקִבַּצְתִּים֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲרָצ֔וֹת וַֽהֲבִֽיאוֹתִ֖ים אֶל־אַדְמָתָ֑ם וּרְעִיתִים֙ אֶל־הָרֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל בָּֽאֲפִיקִ֕ים וּבְכֹ֖ל מֽוֹשְׁבֵ֥י הָאָֽרֶץ:
14On good pasture I will pasture them, and on the mountains of the height of Israel will be their dwelling; there they will lie in a good fold and graze on fat pastureland upon the mountains of Israel. ידבְּמִרְעֶה־טוֹב֙ אֶרְעֶ֣ה אוֹתָ֔ם וּבְהָרֵ֥י מְרֽוֹם־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יִֽהְיֶ֣ה נְוֵהֶ֑ם שָׁ֚ם תִּרְבַּ֙צְנָה֙ בְּנָ֣וֶה ט֔וֹב וּמִרְעֶ֥ה שָׁמֵ֛ן תִּרְעֶ֖ינָה אֶל־הָרֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל:
15I will pasture My flocks and I will cause them to lie down, says the Lord God. טואֲנִ֨י אֶרְעֶ֚ה צֹאנִי֙ וַֽאֲנִ֣י אַרְבִּיצֵ֔ם נְאֻ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה:
16I will seek the lost and I will retrieve the one astray; I will bind the broken and I will strengthen the ill, and the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will pasture it with justice. טזאֶת־הָֽאֹבֶ֚דֶת אֲבַקֵּשׁ֙ וְאֶת־הַנִּדַּ֣חַת אָשִׁ֔יב וְלַנִּשְׁבֶּ֣רֶת אֶֽחֱבֹ֔שׁ וְאֶת־הַֽחוֹלָ֖ה אֲחַזֵּ֑ק וְאֶת־הַשְּׁמֵנָ֧ה וְאֶת־הַֽחֲזָקָ֛ה אַשְׁמִ֖יד אֶרְעֶ֥נָּה בְמִשְׁפָּֽט:
17And you, My flocks, so said the Lord God: Behold I judge between one lamb and another, among the rams and among the he-goats. יזוְאַתֵּ֣נָה צֹאנִ֔י כֹּ֥ה אָמַ֖ר אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֑ה הִנְנִ֚י שֹׁפֵט֙ בֵּין־שֶׂ֣ה לָשֶׂ֔ה לָֽאֵילִ֖ים וְלָֽעַתּוּדִֽים:
18Is it little for you? The good pasture you graze, and the rest of your pasture you tread with your feet; you drink the clear water, and the rest you tread with your feet. יחהַמְעַ֣ט מִכֶּ֗ם הַמִּרְעֶ֚ה הַטּוֹב֙ תִּרְע֔וּ וְיֶ֙תֶר֙ מִרְעֵיכֶ֔ם תִּרְמְס֖וּ בְּרַגְלֵיכֶ֑ם וּמִשְׁקַע־מַ֣יִם תִּשְׁתּ֔וּ וְאֵת֙ הַנּ֣וֹתָרִ֔ים בְּרַגְלֵיכֶ֖ם תִּרְפֹּשֽׂוּן:
19And My flocks graze upon what you trod with your feet, and they drink what you trod with your feet. יטוְצֹאנִ֑י מִרְמַ֚ס רַגְלֵיכֶם֙ תִּרְעֶ֔ינָה וּמִרְפַּ֥שׂ רַגְלֵיכֶ֖ם תִּשְׁתֶּֽינָה:
20Therefore, so said the Lord God to them: Behold I am here, and I will judge between a strong lamb and a lean lamb. כלָכֵ֗ן כֹּ֥ה אָמַ֛ר אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִ֖ה אֲלֵיהֶ֑ם הִֽנְנִי־אָ֕נִי וְשָֽׁפַטְתִּי֙ בֵּין־שֶׂ֣ה בִרְיָ֔ה וּבֵ֥ין שֶׂ֖ה רָזָֽה:
21Because you push with flank and with shoulder, and with your horns you gore all the frail ones until you have scattered them abroad. כאיַ֗עַן בְּצַ֚ד וּבְכָתֵף֙ תֶּהְדֹּ֔פוּ וּבְקַרְנֵיכֶ֥ם תְּנַגְּח֖וּ כָּל־הַנַּחְל֑וֹת עַ֣ד אֲשֶׁ֧ר הֲפִֽיצוֹתֶ֛ם אוֹתָ֖נָה אֶל־הַחֽוּצָה:
22I shall save My flocks, and they will no longer become a prey, and I shall judge between one lamb and another lamb. כבוְהֽוֹשַׁעְתִּ֣י לְצֹאנִ֔י וְלֹֽא־תִהְיֶ֥ינָה ע֖וֹד לָבַ֑ז וְשָׁ֣פַטְתִּ֔י בֵּ֥ין שֶׂ֖ה לָשֶֽׂה:
23And I shall put up over them one shepherd and he will shepherd them, namely My servant David; he will shepherd them, and he will be for them as a shepherd. כגוַֽהֲקִֽמֹתִ֨י עֲלֵיהֶ֜ם רֹעֶ֚ה אֶחָד֙ וְרָעָ֣ה אֶתְהֶ֔ן אֵ֖ת עַבְדִּ֣י דָוִ֑יד הוּא יִרְעֶ֣ה אוֹתָ֔ם וְה֛וּא יִֽהְיֶ֥ה לָהֶ֖ן לְרֹעֶֽה:
24And I, the Lord, shall be to them for a God, and My servant David [will be] a prince in their midst; I, the Lord, have spoken. כדוַֽאֲנִ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶהְיֶ֚ה לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְעַבְדִּ֥י דָוִ֖ד נָשִׂ֣יא בְתוֹכָ֑ם אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה דִּבַּֽרְתִּי:
25And I shall make with them a covenant of peace, and I shall abolish the wild beasts from the land, and they will dwell securely in the desert and grow old in the forests. כהוְכָרַתִּ֚י לָהֶם֙ בְּרִ֣ית שָׁל֔וֹם וְהִשְׁבַּתִּ֥י חַיָּֽה־רָעָ֖ה מִן־הָאָ֑רֶץ וְיָֽשְׁב֚וּ בַמִּדְבָּר֙ לָבֶ֔טַח וְיָֽשְׁנ֖וּ בַּיְּעָרִֽים (כתיב בַּיְּעָורִים) :
26And I shall make them dwell around My hill for a blessing, and I shall bring down rain in its time; they will be rains of blessing. כווְנָֽתַתִּ֥י אוֹתָ֛ם וּסְבִיב֥וֹת גִּבְעָתִ֖י בְּרָכָ֑ה וְהֽוֹרַדְתִּ֚י הַגֶּ֙שֶׁם֙ בְּעִתּ֔וֹ גִּשְׁמֵ֥י בְרָכָ֖ה יִֽהְיֽוּ:
27And the tree of the field will give forth its fruit and the land will give forth its produce, and they will know that I am the Lord when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from those who enslave them. כזוְנָתַן֩ עֵ֨ץ הַשָּׂדֶ֜ה אֶת־פִּרְי֗וֹ וְהָאָ֙רֶץ֙ תִּתֵּ֣ן יְבוּלָ֔הּ וְהָי֥וּ עַל־אַדְמָתָ֖ם לָבֶ֑טַח וְֽיָֽדְע֞וּ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֣י יְהֹוָ֗ה בְּשִׁבְרִי֙ אֶת־מֹט֣וֹת עֻלָּ֔ם וְהִ֨צַּלְתִּ֔ים מִיַּ֖ד הָעֹֽבְדִ֥ים בָּהֶֽם:
28And they will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them, and they will dwell securely, with no one frightening them. כחוְלֹֽא־יִהְי֨וּ ע֥וֹד בַּז֙ לַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְחַיַּ֥ת הָאָ֖רֶץ לֹ֣א תֹֽאכְלֵ֑ם וְיָֽשְׁב֥וּ לָבֶ֖טַח וְאֵ֥ין מַֽחֲרִֽיד:
29And I shall establish for them a plantation for renown, and they will no longer be hidden because of hunger in the land, and they will no longer bear the disgrace of the nations. כטוַֽהֲקִֽמֹתִ֥י לָהֶ֛ם מַטָּ֖ע לְשֵׁ֑ם וְלֹֽא־יִהְי֨וּ ע֜וֹד אֲסֻפֵ֚י רָעָב֙ בָּאָ֔רֶץ וְלֹֽא־יִשְׂא֥וּ ע֖וֹד כְּלִמַּ֥ת הַגּוֹיִֽם:
30And they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they are My people, the house of Israel, says the Lord God. לוְיָֽדְע֗וּ כִּ֣י אֲנִ֧י יְהֹוָ֛ה אֱלֹֽהֵיהֶ֖ם אִתָּ֑ם וְהֵ֗מָּה עַמִּי֙ בֵּ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל נְאֻ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה:
31And you are My flocks, the flocks of My pasture, you are man; I am your God," says the Lord God. לאוְאַתֵּ֥ן צֹאנִ֛י צֹ֥אן מַרְעִיתִ֖י אָדָ֣ם אַתֶּ֑ם אֲנִי֙ אֱלֹ֣הֵיכֶ֔ם נְאֻ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה:

 

[Josiah]

Matthew 1:21, John 10:15, (Ephesians 1:4) (John 6:37-40) Isaiah 53. (Isaiah 53:8)(Isaiah 53:11 (Isaiah 53:12)

MennoSota,


Obviously
NONE of these verses says what you do.....
NONE of them remotely teach the new, radical dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists that you embrace, the "L" of TULIP that nearly all Calvinists have repudiated.
NONE of these verses teach that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church and no others.


You are just getting parroted over and over your absurd, extremely illogical point that if something is indicated as true in a case, it ergo MUST be EXCLUSIVELY in that singular case, so if I post that I love my son ERGO it is a mandated dogma that I do not love my wife. It's got to be the silliest argument I've ever read on the internet, amazingly absurd.


Again, no one here disputes ANYTHING in ANY of the verses you present - they are all literally, verbatim true. No one here disputes that Christ died for His people or the elect or the church. But none of that is your dogma, none of that is even related to the issue before us. The sole, singular issue is the ONLY.... ONLY that short list of undisclosed persons, those few, JUST them. None of the verses you give remotely state that.


And you have yet to show that the MANY verses we've shared with you, all of which flat-out, directly CONTRADICT your dogma, why they are all false.





Pinacled,

Thanks for so carefully proving that John 17 says nothing about this radical invented dogma of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, JUST for the elect. I agree.






.

 

[pinacled]

MennoSota,


Obviously
NONE of these verses says what you do.....
NONE of them remotely teach the new, radical dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists that you embrace, the "L" of TULIP that nearly all Calvinists have repudiated.
NONE of these verses teach that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church and no others.


You are just getting parroted over and over your absurd, extremely illogical point that if something is indicated as true in a case, it ergo MUST be EXCLUSIVELY in that singular case, so if I post that I love my son ERGO it is a mandated dogma that I do not love my wife. It's got to be the silliest argument I've ever read on the internet, amazingly absurd.


Again, no one here disputes ANYTHING in ANY of the verses you present - they are all literally, verbatim true. No one here disputes that Christ died for His people or the elect or the church. But none of that is your dogma, none of that is even related to the issue before us. The sole, singular issue is the ONLY.... ONLY that short list of undisclosed persons, those few, JUST them. None of the verses you give remotely state that.


And you have yet to show that the MANY verses we've shared with you, all of which flat-out, directly CONTRADICT your dogma, why they are all false.





Pinacled,

Thanks for so carefully proving that John 17 says nothing about this radical invented dogma of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, JUST for the elect. I agree.






.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”



I only heard mennas speaking the truth of the matter.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


Obviously
NONE of these verses says what you do.....
NONE of them remotely teach the new, radical dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists that you embrace, the "L" of TULIP that nearly all Calvinists have repudiated.
NONE of these verses teach that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church and no others.


You are just getting parroted over and over your absurd, extremely illogical point that if something is indicated as true in a case, it ergo MUST be EXCLUSIVELY in that singular case, so if I post that I love my son ERGO it is a mandated dogma that I do not love my wife. It's got to be the silliest argument I've ever read on the internet, amazingly absurd.


Again, no one here disputes ANYTHING in ANY of the verses you present - they are all literally, verbatim true. No one here disputes that Christ died for His people or the elect or the church. But none of that is your dogma, none of that is even related to the issue before us. The sole, singular issue is the ONLY.... ONLY that short list of undisclosed persons, those few, JUST them. None of the verses you give remotely state that.


And you have yet to show that the MANY verses we've shared with you, all of which flat-out, directly CONTRADICT your dogma, why they are all false.





Pinacled,

Thanks for so carefully proving that John 17 says nothing about this radical invented dogma of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, JUST for the elect. I agree.






.

Yup Pinacled, nothing that states that Jesus died ONLY, JUST for the elect.


Scripture says the opposite:



1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...




.

 

[pinacled]

Yup Pinacled, nothing that states that Jesus died ONLY, JUST for the elect.

Gas lighting is a filthy way to treat people and will be dealt with swiftly.

 

[Josiah]

Gas lighting is a filthy way to treat people and will be dealt with swiftly.

I have no clue how your reply relates to anything anyone in this thread ever posted....


I appreciate you quoting Scripture.... and how they confirm that the radical dogma that MennoSota says he embraces is not taught. I'm not sure if you had some OTHER point you wanted to make because you pretty much just quoted the verses and indicated how they do not teach that Jesus died for ONLY the elect, JUST the church, and no others. That's the sole issue here.

 

[pinacled]

I have no clue how your reply relates to anything anyone in this thread ever posted....


I appreciate you quoting Scripture.... and how they confirm that the radical dogma that MennoSota says he embraces is not taught. I'm not sure if you had some OTHER point you wanted to make because you pretty much just quoted the verses and indicated how they do not teach that Jesus died for ONLY the elect, JUST the church, and no others. That's the sole issue here.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

i have no idea what you are saying josiah.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Gas lighting is a filthy way to treat people and will be dealt with swiftly.

You've no idea what true gas-lighting is, and I resent that you'd apply it to yourself. Typically it's applied to male/female relationships as an element of control. No-one here is attempting to control you in that manner.

 

[MennoSota]

MennoSota,


Obviously
NONE of these verses says what you do.....
NONE of them remotely teach the new, radical dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists that you embrace, the "L" of TULIP that nearly all Calvinists have repudiated.
NONE of these verses teach that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, JUST for the church and no others.


You are just getting parroted over and over your absurd, extremely illogical point that if something is indicated as true in a case, it ergo MUST be EXCLUSIVELY in that singular case, so if I post that I love my son ERGO it is a mandated dogma that I do not love my wife. It's got to be the silliest argument I've ever read on the internet, amazingly absurd.


Again, no one here disputes ANYTHING in ANY of the verses you present - they are all literally, verbatim true. No one here disputes that Christ died for His people or the elect or the church. But none of that is your dogma, none of that is even related to the issue before us. The sole, singular issue is the ONLY.... ONLY that short list of undisclosed persons, those few, JUST them. None of the verses you give remotely state that.


And you have yet to show that the MANY verses we've shared with you, all of which flat-out, directly CONTRADICT your dogma, why they are all false.





Pinacled,

Thanks for so carefully proving that John 17 says nothing about this radical invented dogma of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, JUST for the elect. I agree.






.

Josiah, you keep parroting the false narrative that I didn't address the verses you posted and explain how they do not teach universal atonement.
Second, you utterly refuse to acknowledge your deep conundrum, which is: If Jesus atonement is universal and Jesus gives the gift of faith, why then did he purchase all humanity from their sins (universal atonement), yet he only gifts faith to a very small minority?
Why does Jesus make his atonement ineffective for the majority of humanity, Josiah?
Please, only answer the last question, Josiah. Don't ignore it and do your stupid cut and paste bogus response. Answer the question, Josiah!
Why does Jesus make his atonement ineffective for the majority of humanity, Josiah?

 

[pinacled]

You've no idea what true gas-lighting is, and I resent that you'd apply it to yourself. Typically it's applied to male/female relationships as an element of control. No-one here is attempting to control you in that manner.

You dont have the slightest clue of the Amount of suffering ive endured in this life youngin.
Just because i do not speak of personal matters.
You have no right to Tell me what i have or have not experienced

DO U UNDERSTAND