Anglican origins, claims, theology.

[MoreCoffee]

But I do --really, I do [Sometimes like to be irritating myself but I will not admit to that in public ] -- [and I fully] understand that you just want to be irritating, and that we are not talking about serious concerns. :thumbsdown:[I made a mistake and ought to humbly admit it and move on so that the topic can be more profitably discussed ] The same with that [the] Blessed Mary thread.

Strike-through text indicates something that Albion wrote (probably in error) and redish text in [] is text that I have helpfully supplied so that the real situation and proper intent can be seen.

:smirk:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is a speech that was recorded in London at a trial in 1534. The words spoken are the words in the records of the trial from 1534.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlANWgyK2PY

It is about the origins of the church of England.

 

[Albion]

Here is a speech that was recorded in London at a trial in 1534. The words spoken are the words in the records of the trial from 1534.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlANWgyK2PY

It is about the origins of the church of England.

Actually, it is about Thomas More's resistance to a the change being made in the church that already existed--obviously.

He certainly was not opposing a proposal to create a new Christian denomination to compete with his church. If that had been the case, the whole course of events involving him would have been different.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually, it is about Thomas More's resistance to a the change being made in the church that already existed--obviously.

He certainly was not opposing a proposal to create a new Christian denomination to compete with his church. If that had been the case, the whole course of events involving him would have been different.

Saint Thomas More was not charged with heresy. He was Martyred for his faith because he refused to participate in the heresy of Henry VII; in the adulterous 'marriage' to Anne Boleyn and to the transfer of "supremacy in the Church on Earth - in England" to the English King.

 

[Pedrito]

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A corrupt, powerful, international, political organisation was posing as God’s authorised bringer of the Gospel to the world.

That organisation used its supposed control of God’s mercy, to hold political power over multiple countries.

One of those countries rebelled against that control. Its reason for doing so is immaterial.

The hierarchy (and some members?) of that corrupt, powerful, international, political organisation, were subject to a similar style of persecution that it had inflicted on others who desired to worship God outside the prevailing realm of corruption.

The rebellious country instituted (from the original hierarchy) a hierarchy of its own.

That resulting hierarchy then proceeded to persecute the same others who desired to worship God outside the realm of corruption in the first place.

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Any act of persecution is a sure sign that the associated organisation or movement is operating outside God’s sphere of blessing and will. (That has been true since the earliest days of Christendom.)

Therefore I would suggest, any church or denomination (or what have you) that has ever persecuted others, has self-disqualified itself from any claim (pretence) that it is a faithful representer of the God of love and light in any way.

And thus whatever the origins, claims and theology of the Anglican Church (and others) are, that organisation is tarred with the same brush as the organisation from which it sprang.

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Maybe I should wash my mouth out with soap. I was baptised (as a properly sentient being – a teenager) and confirmed shortly thereafter, in the Anglican Church.

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[MoreCoffee]

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A corrupt, powerful, international, political organisation was posing as God’s authorised bringer of the Gospel to the world.

That organisation used its supposed control of God’s mercy, to hold political power over multiple countries.

One of those countries rebelled against that control. Its reason for doing so is immaterial.

The hierarchy (and some members?) of that corrupt, powerful, international, political organisation, were subject to a similar style of persecution that it had inflicted on others who desired to worship God outside the prevailing realm of corruption.

The rebellious country instituted (from the original hierarchy) a hierarchy of its own.

That resulting hierarchy then proceeded to persecute the same others who desired to worship God outside the realm of corruption in the first place.

==============================================================================================

Any act of persecution is a sure sign that the associated organisation or movement is operating outside God’s sphere of blessing and will. (That has been true since the earliest days of Christendom.)

Therefore I would suggest, any church or denomination (or what have you) that has ever persecuted others, has self-disqualified itself from any claim (pretence) that it is a faithful representer of the God of love and light in any way.

Can you name any sizeable denomination or church that has not mistreated any person by means of its leaders and employees for any reason>

And thus whatever the origins, claims and theology of the Anglican Church (and others) are, that organisation is tarred with the same brush as the organisation from which it sprang.

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Maybe I should wash my mouth out with soap. I was baptised (as a properly sentient being – a teenager) and confirmed shortly thereafter, in the Anglican Church.

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Repentance may be in order

 

[Albion]

Saint Thomas More was not charged with heresy. He was Martyred for his faith because he refused to participate in the heresy of Henry VII; in the adulterous 'marriage' to Anne Boleyn and to the transfer of "supremacy in the Church on Earth - in England" to the English King.

If you cannot even get straight which king was involved, your theories about Thomas More aren't going to be worth much either.

I count several obvious errors in just this short post of yours, but as you've said before you don't know much about Anglicanism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you cannot even get straight which king was involved, your theories about Thomas More aren't going to be worth much either.

I count several obvious errors in just this short post of yours, but as you've said before you don't know much about Anglicanism.

Henry VIII, you're being a little trollish.

 

[Albion]

Henry VIII, you're being a little trollish.

That's interesting coming as it does from our resident troll. LOL

No, I am just someone who knows what he is talking about when it comes to Anglicanism and am not talking through my hat like you are. But as for the king, you didn't just make a typo. This is about the fourth time you have posted Henry VII in one of your messages; and in one case I even made a point of calling that error to your attention in my reply--but it continued on.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Anglicanism as it is now with its 39 articles of religion and 66 book bible together with protestant doctrines and somewhat Calvinist soteriology arose during and after the reign of Henry VIII. Henry VII was a faithful Catholic, his sons were too but in Hevry VIII's case his sexual appetites and desire for a male heir led him to embrace views and seek out proponents of the same that would allow him to both divorce his legal wife and take another to his bed, he did this four more times after his second wife was beheaded at his order on apparently fabricated charges of adultery and incest. The church that he created from the former Catholic church in his lands became the play thing of the English crown for quite some time and even to this day its bishops are ratified by the UK prime minister and the UK monarch. Your church, Albion, is a USA variant of the Church of England, severed from the British throne and arising at the time of the colonial rebellion (or later if it is the product of one of the many splits in the Episcopal family of denominations) that formed the nation in which you live.

 

[Albion]

Anglicanism as it is now with its 39 articles of religion and 66 book bible together with protestant doctrines and somewhat Calvinist soteriology arose during and after the reign of Henry VIII.

Wrong on several counts. Already discussed.

Henry VII was a faithful Catholic, his sons were too but in Hevry VIII's case his sexual appetites and desire for a male heir led him to embrace views....

Henry VIII was a faithful Catholic until his dying day and was never declared a heretic by the Roman Church.

and seek out proponents of the same that would allow him to both divorce his legal wife and take another to his bed, he did this four more times after his second wife was beheaded at his order on apparently fabricated charges of adultery and incest.

If this is the standard by which you judge churches, we must also examine the lives of some of the men who have headed your denomination and men who by the way, you consider to have been endowed by God with infallibility--kidnappers, orgiasts, Nazi co-conspirators, and scoundrels of every sort.

Your church, Albion, is a USA variant of the Church of England....

And your church officially broke away from the Church of England in 1570. According to its own rules, it has entered into schism.






.

 

[Pedrito]

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MoreCoffee (Post 166):

Can you name any sizeable denomination or church that has not mistreated any person by means of its leaders and employees for any reason>

Exactly the point.

Based on the criterion of perpetrating persecution, a totally ungodly act, churches of whatever size that have been guilty of that in whatever form (including the Roman Catholic Church), have self-disqualified themselves from any claim (pretence) that they are faithful representers of the God of love and light in any way.

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Repentance may be in order

So making historically appropriate statements now requires repentance .

Now that is an interesting concept.


(Or was it that I displayed disloyalty to an organisation that I was once part of? Maybe that’s it. Loyalty to organisations and cherished beliefs ranks high within Christendom. But is that style of loyalty actually valid? In God’s eyes?)

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[MoreCoffee]

There is another thread containing reflections from a contemporary of the times when the Church of England became a protestant body with distinctly protestant doctrines.

It is called Anglicanism a reformation view for those who attempt to cast doubt on Anglican origins that thread may be educational.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Christianity in England

The Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, has a long history. Christianity probably began to be practiced in England not later than the early 3rd century. By the 4th century the church was established well enough to send three British bishops—of Londinium (London), Eboracum (York), and Lindum (Lincoln)—to the Council of Arles (in present-day France) in 314. In the 5th century, after the Romans had withdrawn from Britain and the Anglo-Saxons had invaded it, St. Illtud and St. Patrick performed missionary work in Wales and in Ireland, respectively. Isolated from continental Christianity in the 5th and 6th centuries, Christianity in the British Isles, especially in the north, was influenced by Irish Christianity, which was organized around monasteries rather than episcopal sees. About 563 St. Columba founded an influential monastic community on the island of Iona in the Inner Hebrides islands of Scotland.

An important step in the history of the English church was taken in 596, when St. Augustine was sent on a mission to England by Pope Gregory the Great. He was charged with evangelizing the largely pagan southern English kingdoms and establishing Roman ecclesiastical organization. He successfully preached to the king of Kent, converting him and a large number of his followers in 597. Augustine’s archbishopric at Canterbury soon became the symbolic seat of England’s church, which established important ties to Rome under his leadership. Subsequent mission work, such as that of St. Aidan in northern England about 634, helped to solidify the English church. At the synod of Whitby in 664, the church of Northumbria (one of the northern English kingdoms) broke its ties with the Celtic church and accepted Roman usage, bringing the English church more fully into line with Roman and continental practices.

The early church in England was a distinctive fusion of British, Celtic, and Roman influences. Although adopting the episcopal structure favoured by the church of Rome, it retained powerful centres in the monasteries. The most important British sees were the archbishoprics of York and Canterbury, which often competed for primacy. Representatives of the church, such as the great historian and scholar Bede, played an important role in the development of English culture. The church sometimes found itself at odds with the English monarchy, as when St. Anselm, archbishop of Canterbury, went into exile during controversies over the investiture of William Rufus and Henry I. The martyrdom of St. Thomas Becket, the most famous case of church-state conflict, demonstrated the church’s concern to protect its integrity against the throne in the 12th century. The writings of John Wycliffe questioned the form of the medieval church and became an early protest against control of the English church by Rome.

Under King Henry VIII in the 16th century, the Church of England broke with Rome, largely because Pope Clement VII refused to grant Henry an annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Wishing no reform—except along the lines of Erasmus’s Christian humanism—Henry intended to replace Rome’s authority over the English church with his own. Upon Henry’s death, Archbishop Thomas Cranmer began changes that allied the Church of England with the Reformation. His The Book of Common Prayer revised traditional forms of worship to incorporate Protestant ideas. These efforts, however, were overturned by Queen Mary, who sought to restore Roman Catholicism in England. When Elizabeth I assumed the throne in 1558, the Reformation in England triumphed. The theologian John Jewel wrote that the Church of England had returned to ancient precedent. Richard Hooker defended the church against attacks by English Puritans and Catholics. Although the Puritans achieved political power in the Commonwealth in the mid-17th century, the subsequent Restoration (1660) marked the beginning of more than a century of great influence for the Church of England. The church dominated England’s religious life, becoming a considerable social and spiritual force and closely allying itself with the power of the throne. It generated impressive forms of philanthropy, and clergy commonly performed the duties of civil servants.

The church’s hold on English religious life began to wane in the 18th century, despite impressive reform efforts. John Wesley, Charles Simeon, John Newton, and other clergy associated with the Evangelical revival prompted a surge of new religious fervour. Evangelical laity such as William Wilberforce and the Clapham Sect fought slavery and encouraged social reform. In the early 19th century the Anglo-Catholic (High Church) Oxford movement, led by John Henry Newman, John Keble, and E.B. Pusey, attempted to recover the ancient liturgy and to respond to social concerns. The church made impressive efforts to encompass the diversity of modern English life while retaining its traditional identity.


History as told mainly by Encyclopaedia Britannica

 

[MoreCoffee]

Having established the origin of the current "Anglican communion" in the sixteenth century as a prodigy created by the lusts of Henry VIII and the desire of his bishops to keep their heads attached to their bodies - it being well known that those bishops who refused his demand regarding the divorce and the 'marriage' to Mistress Anne Boleyn were executed as traitors because they refused the kings whim and did not pander to his lusty desire for a new wife and the attached hope for a son and heir - we can now move on the the claims of the denomination and see what they are and how well they fit reality or not.

 

[Albion]

Having established the origin of the current "Anglican communion" in the sixteenth century

Let me help you. The Anglican Communion is a loose, worldwide federation of Anglican churches headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. It represents about 3/4 of the world's Anglicans and yes, it is of relatively recent origin. The Anglican Church itself is the oldest church in the Gentile world, as your own denomination has repeatedly stated, and it was founded in the first or second centuries AD. Many people use the term "Anglican Communion" to mean all the Anglican churches, or Anglicanism generally, but that is ignorant.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So what do Anglicans say about themselves; what are their claims?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, one claim made by the church of England is that the King (or Queen) of England is the supreme head (under God) of the church in England in all matters temporal and spiritual. That is a mighty claim for a worldly ruler to make for him (or her) self.

 

[Albion]

Is there anyone here who IS a member of the Church of England...or is this thread just a safe free-fire zone for bigot(s)?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is there anyone here who IS a member of the Church of England...or is this thread just a safe free-fire zone for bigot(s)?

So you're not a member of the church that you claimed started in 37 AD?

I thought it was unlikely that you were.

So the claim about 37 AD was just fluff about something of which you're no member.

Well, back to the facts and away from your fanciful claims.

There were two versions of the act of supremacy passed by the English Parliament. The first was under Hendy VIII and the second by Elizabeth I. There may be other later versions too.

The first states:

Statute of Six Artic1es, 1539

An Act abolishing diversity in Opinions

Where the King's most excellent Majesty is by God's Law Supreme Head immediately under him of this whole Church and Congregation of England, intending the conservation of the same Church and Congregation in a true, sincere, and uniform doctrine of Christ's Religion, calling also to his blessed and most gracious remembrance as well the great and quiet assurance, prosperous increase, and other innumerable commodities which have ever ensued, come, and followed of concord, agreement, and unity in opinions, as also the manifold perils, dangers, and inconveniences which have heretofore in many places and regions grown, sprung, and arisen of the diversities of minds and opinions, especially of matters of Christian Religion; And therefore desiring that such an unity might and should be charitably established in all things touching and concerning the same, as the same, so being established might chiefly be to the honour of Almighty God, the very author and fountain of all true unity and sincere concord, and consequently redound to the common wealth of this his Highness's most noble realm and of all his loving subjects and other resiants and inhabitants of or in the same: Hath therefore caused and commanded this his most high Court of Parliament, for sundry and many urgent causes and considerations, to be at this time summoned, and also a Synod and Convocation of all the archbishops, bishops, and other learned men of the clergy of this his realm to be in like manner assembled; And forasmuch as in the said Parliament, Synod, and Convocation there were certain articles, matters, and questions proponed and set forth touching Christian Religion The King's most royal Majesty, most prudently pondering and considering that by occasion of variable and sundry opinions and judgments of the said articles, great discord and variance hath arisen as well amongst the clergy of this his realm as amongst a great number of vulgar people his loving subjects of the same, and being in a full hope and trust that a full and perfect resolution of the said articles should make a perfect concord and unity generally amongst all his loving and obedient subjects; Of his most excellent goodness not only commanded that the said articles should deliberately and advisedly by his said archbishops, bishops, and other learned men of his clergy be debated, argued, and reasoned, and their opinions therein to be understood, declared, and known, but also most graciously vouchsafed in his own princely person to descend and come into his said high Court of Parliament and Council, and there like a prince of most high prudence and no less learning opened and declared many things of high learning and great knowledge touching the said articles, matters, and questions, for an unity to be had in the same; Whereupon, after a great and long deliberate and advised disputation and consultation had and made concerning the said articles, as well by the consent of the King's Highness as by the assent of the Lords spiritual and temporal and other learned men of his clergy in their Convocation and by the consent of the Commons in this present Parliament assembled -it was and is finally resolved, accorded, and agreed in manner and form following, that is to say;

First, that in the most blessed Sacrament of the Altar, by the strength and efficacy of Christ's mighty word, it being spoken by the priest, is present really, under the form of bread and wine, the natural body and blood of Our Saviour Jesu Christ, conceived of the Virgin Mary, and that after the consecration there remaineth no substance of bread and wine, nor any other substance but the substance of Christ, God and man;

Secondly, that communion in both kinds is not necessary ad salutem, by the law of God, to all persons; and that it is to be believed, and not doubted of, but that in the flesh, under the form of the bread, is the very blood; and with the blood, under the form of the wine, is the very flesh; as well apart, as though they were both together.

Thirdly, that priests after the order of priesthood received, as afore, may not marry, by the law of God.

Fourthly, that vows of chastity or widowhood, by man or woman made to God advisedly, ought to be observed by the law of God; and that it exempts them from other liberties of Christian people, which without that they might enjoy.

Fifthly, that it is meet and necessary that private masses be continued and admitted in this the King's English Church and Congregation, as whereby good Christian people, ordering themselves accordingly, do receive both godly and goodly consolations and benefits; and it is agreeable also to God's law.

Sixthly, that auricular confession is expedient and necessary to be retained and continued, used and frequented in the Church of God:. . . It is therefore ordained and enacted.. . .

VI. And be it further enacted... that if any person or persons... contemn or contemptuously refuse, deny, or abstain to be confessed at the time commonly accustomed within this realm and Church of England, or contemn or contemptuously refuse, deny, or abstain to receive the holy and blessed sacrament above said at the time commonly used and accustomed for the same, that then every such offender.. shall suffer such, imprisonment and make such fine and ransom to the King our Sovereign Lord and his heirs as by his Highness or by his or their Council shall be ordered and adjudged in that behalf; And if any such offender ... do eftsoons... refuse... to be confessed or to be communicate... that then every such offence shall be deemed and adjudged felony, and the offender... shall suffer pains of death and lose and forfeit all his... goods, lands, and tenements, as in cases of felony.​