Sinless Mary

[MoreCoffee]

Then you agree with me: Neither of those examples have any relevance whatsoever to this topic or to any apologetic for this new, unique dogma of your individual denomination. Good, we agree.

No, we do not agree.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If Job can be called perfect by Jehovah and Enoch declared as a man who pleased God why is it so hard to conceive of Blessed Mary as without sin?

This, the quote above, is what I said.

 

[Josiah]

I don't deny that it's POSSIBLE for Mary to have been sinless.... or be 9 feet tall.... or be allergic to fish.... or to have been able to fly (as some Catholics once claimed).... but that doesn't confirm that it is a dogmatic fact of highest certainly and importance that she uniquely was conceived without original sin. It might be POSSIBLE but possible have little to do with true.

And of course, you'd need to do something with those verses that say that ALL are sinful (IMO, that doesn't include Jesus because the Bible expressly and verbatim states that HE (it's in the singular) is sinless. But that verse doesn't say, ".... and His mother."

 

[Azrael]

Mary was of the world.

Why would this be important to anyone’s salvation?

 

[Josiah]

Why would this be important to anyone’s salvation?

It was made DOGMA by one singular denomination, that in 1870. Not by any Council or Synod but simply by a Papal Bull.


I asked that question in my Catholic days..... and was told: "If Mary had sin, then Jesus would have been sinful - and the Bible specifically says He was not." Of course, even as a kid, I realized this means that if Mary's PARENTS were sinful, then Mary could not have been sinless... all the way back to Adam and Eve... and thus we are all sinless. The other reason we were told is that since Jesus was present in Mary, thus by His presence, Mary would be sanctified (retroactively). Of course, even as a kid, I realized that Jesus was present in the whole world and thus by His presence the whole whole would have been sanctified (retroactively) and thus the Cross was entirely unnecessary: He simply had to be present.


As a good Catholic boy, I was taught that GOSSIP is the intentional spreading of something not known to be true (and it's a serious sin). Yet we were taught that it is DOGMA - a matter of highest importance and certainty possible - that Mary was uniquely conceived without original sin. How does the RCC KNOW this? Answer: When the unique, singular RC denomination speaks, ERGO God Himself is speaking. What I was told: "Josiah, if JESUS HIMSELF stood physically in front of you and told you something, would you ask 'is that true' or 'how do you know?" Then how in the world can you ask that of the Catholic Church?" Ah, Catholicism...... really very simple.





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[Azrael]

It was made DOGMA by one singular denomination, that in 1870. Not by any Council or Synod but simply by a Papal Bull.


I asked that question in my Catholic days..... and was told: "If Mary had sin, then Jesus would have been sinful - and the Bible specifically says He was not." Of course, even as a kid, I realized this means that if Mary's PARENTS were sinful, then Mary could not have been sinless... all the way back to Adam and Eve... and thus we are all sinless. The other reason we were told is that since Jesus was present in Mary, thus by His presence, Mary would be sanctified (retroactively). Of course, even as a kid, I realized that Jesus was present in the whole world and thus by His presence the whole whole would have been sanctified (retroactively) and thus the Cross was entirely unnecessary: He simply had to be present.


As a good Catholic boy, I was taught that GOSSIP is the intentional spreading of something not known to be true (and it's a serious sin). Yet we were taught that it is DOGMA - a matter of highest importance and certainty possible - that Mary was uniquely conceived without original sin. How does the RCC KNOW this? Answer: When the unique, singular RC denomination speaks, ERGO God Himself is speaking. What I was told: "Josiah, if JESUS HIMSELF stood physically in front of you and told you something, would you ask 'is that true' or 'how do you know?" Then how in the world can you ask that of the Catholic Church?" Ah, Catholicism...... really very simple.





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Yeah, the Catholic doctrine is a complete and utter Satanic infiltrated disaster of a Great Whore of a mess at this point. It’s good people which remain is it’s only asset left besides its finances.

 

[Lamb]

Yeah, the Catholic doctrine is a complete and utter Satanic infiltrated disaster of a Great Whore of a mess at this point. It’s good people which remain is it’s only asset left besides its finances.

Christianity Haven recognizes the Catholics to be our brothers and sisters in Christ. Just FYI.

 

[Azrael]

Christianity Haven recognizes the Catholics to be our brothers and sisters in Christ. Just FYI.

As did I in my comment.

Perhaps they lead their leaders to solutions if everyone stops pretending nobody is allowed to speak of their glaring issues.

 

[Josiah]

Yeah, the Catholic doctrine is a complete and utter Satanic infiltrated disaster of a Great Whore of a mess at this point. It’s good people which remain is it’s only asset left besides its finances.

Well..... IMO..... it's simply baseless. I do not doubt (for a second) the sincerity of such. But it's possible to be sincerely wrong. I don't even claim it's WRONG (I certainly do NOT call it "heresy' - a WRONG dogma), I don't reject it as PIOUS OPINION. I simply hold that it is baseless. And I agree with you.... I can't for the life of me think of why it is a matter of highest importance possible, and issue that if denied makes our future in heaven most unlikely. The STATUS of it bothers me more than the view itself.




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[Azrael]

Well..... IMO..... it's simply baseless. I do not doubt (for a second) the sincerity of such. But it's possible to be sincerely wrong. I don't even claim it's WRONG (I certainly do NOT call it "heresy' - a WRONG dogma), I don't reject it as PIOUS OPINION. I simply hold that it is baseless. And I agree with you.... I can't for the life of me think of why it is a matter of highest importance possible, and issue that if denied makes our future in heaven most unlikely. The STATUS of it bothers me more than the view itself.




.

“It’s simply baseless”. Can you be specific on what ‘it’s’ refers to from my initial reply?

 

[Josiah]

“It’s simply baseless”. Can you be specific on what ‘it’s’ refers to from my initial reply?

I hold that the substantiation for unique dogma (as a teaching and especially as dogma) of the singular RCC (1870) of "The Immaculate Conception" is baseless.

 

[Azrael]

I hold that the substantiation for unique dogma (as a teaching and especially as dogma) of the singular RCC (1870) of "The Immaculate Conception" is baseless.

You’re saying scripture doesn’t support that Mary was sinless?

I would agree. The Catholic Church seems to have been motivated to make up a lot of stuff.

I personally believe a feminist movement casted doubt on the Priesthood authority the Catholic Church claims, but clearly doesn’t possess, and the Priesthood-lacking Arch-Bishops and Popes, lacking the Keys to revelation, composed that Mary holds similar Priesthood Keys that Christ himself only holds to return to Father. This is why Catholics pray to Mary.

It’s an abomination and tied into the Great Whore prophecy in my opinion.

 

[Albion]

Whether a true teaching not, the Immaculate Conception doesn't mean or imply any of that other stuff, however.

 

[Arsenios]

Whether a true teaching not, the Immaculate Conception doesn't mean or imply any of that other stuff, however.

That's right - It does not require an immaculate conception for Mariam to be sinless...

She is still born under the dominion of death...

And for that reason alone needs her Savior, Whom She birthed...

There is NO CO-EQUIVALENCE between sinlessness and immaculate conception...

Christ Himself was not sinless because he was immaculately conceived...

He was Immaculately Conceived because He is God...


Arsenios

 

[Azrael]

That's right - It does not require an immaculate conception for Mariam to be sinless...

She is still born under the dominion of death...

And for that reason alone needs her Savior, Whom She birthed...

There is NO CO-EQUIVALENCE between sinlessness and immaculate conception...

Christ Himself was not sinless because he was immaculately conceived...

He was Immaculately Conceived because He is God...


Arsenios

With all over the overwhelming proof in scripture that God and Christ are two separate souls, people out there still persist in believing the Satanic lie of The Trinity?

That is amazing to me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seems to me that one denial can lead to another and then another.

Denying Blessed Mary's innate goodness as a creature made in God's image and chosen to bear the Son of God is the start for some.

Denying the Blessed and most Holy Trinity is another.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Azrael]

Seems to me that one denial can lead to another and then another.

Denying Blessed Mary's innate goodness as a creature made in God's image and chosen to bear the Son of God is the start for some.

Denying the Blessed and most Holy Trinity is another.

Lord have mercy.

Neither belief should disqualify a personal for Salvation, but denying Christ and The Father are two separate entities when the proof in scripture they are two separate souls, seems like willful ignorance from my perspective.

 

[Albion]

With all over the overwhelming proof in scripture that God and Christ are two separate souls, people out there still persist in believing the Satanic lie of The Trinity?

That is amazing to me.

Imagine how "amazed" the rest of us are at reading that someone like yourself missed the Bible's teaching so badly. Perhaps a bit more study of the Scriptures and less reading of Herbert W. Armstrong would have remedied your misperception.

 

[Azrael]

Imagine how "amazed" the rest of us are at reading that someone like yourself missed the Bible's teaching so badly. Perhaps a bit more study of the Scriptures and less reading of Herbert W. Armstrong would have remedied your misperception.

Who is Christ talking to when he’s on the cross and praying to his Father in Heaven, Himself?

The proof is there. Believe it or not.

The biggest lie ever sold is The Trinity, and it dismisses the most attractive plan we’ve been introduced since Salvation. Perhaps not all are destined for higher laws....

Christ didn’t teach it, it is a man made idea, that didn’t even come around until 300 years after Christ’s murder.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Neither belief should disqualify a personal for Salvation, but denying Christ and The Father are two separate entities when the proof in scripture they are two separate souls, seems like willful ignorance from my perspective.

As tempting as it is to invent religions to suit one's own perception of fairness and truth it is not an option open to Christians. Christ revealed God to humanity. His revelation is the truth. Some dislike what he said and did. But it can't be changed to suit the times or to suit individuals. So denying what Jesus revealed does appear to exclude one from participation in His body and thus receiving salvation in His name.