Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

1. Yes, you can appoint yourself to ask questions. I suppose you can even appoint you yourself to give your opinion on the question of yourself (as can anyone). But none of that is substantiation for ANYTHING. It is not an apologetic AT ALL. All it does is show you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence (most can). That's it, that's all. Stop showing you know how to ask a question and substantiate the dogma you seem to embrace. We're now on page 24 of you totally evading the issue you brought up. No one cares that you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence because it has nothing to do with anything. The issue here is not how to ask a question but did Christ die ONLY for the church, the elect, the few, the minority.


2. This thread is not about why some are saved and not others. You are persistent in "the shell game" (as it's called in debate) - constantly, persistently changing the subject. EVERY TIME you realize you have no "card" to play, no apologetic to offer, you just change the subject. This just illustrates (very powerfully) that you have nothing.


3. The Reformation Theology on justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. That all aspects of this must be in place. Your position is that the variable is the "Solus Christus" part. The position of God, of Scripture, of every Christian on the planet (past and present) except for a tiny, tiny subset of Calvinists whom Calvinists generally repudiate as "hyper-Calvinists" is that the variable is faith. While Christ embraces everyone, not everyone embraces Christ via faith. And friend, while you and I agree that faith is a divine gift, that issue is irrelevant here - whether faith is seen as a divine gift or a human choice, we agree it's FAITH that is the variable, that isn't "there" in all cases... and since it is what embraces/accepts/trusts/replies/apprehends the Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, without it, salvation is not attained.


4. You have yet to address the topic you yourself raised: "Christ died ONLY for the church." You have not given even one verse where the word "only" even appears - in any context, for anything at all. NOTHING about Christ dying for only a few, a minority. And you have just totally ignored all the verses - and there are many, many of them - which state the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you do. Friend, there is a reason why nearly all Calvinists repudiate the "L" in TULIP or at the least entirely redefine it. They've realized what is obvious.... this is a very unbiblical concept, directly contrary to what God says.




A blessed Christmas to all...


- Josiah





.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

I see you saying "Yes." Is that correct?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

I see you saying "Yes." Is that correct?

Is Christ's mission pass/fail? You seem to think so. Who are the Elect? Do you know? Have you the mind of God?

Then the Lord answered Menno out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.​

 

[MennoSota]

I was hoping you'd maybe get the point about seeing properly

I was hoping you would answer the question.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

 

[MennoSota]

I was hoping you'd maybe get the point about seeing properly

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

No. His atonement is the greatest success story in the history of mankind and was for the salvation of the whole world. Now answer the questions posed to you

 

[MennoSota]

I don't recall that Christ answered the question of the Pharisees how they wanted either. Christ doesn't do this pass/fail. That's my answer. You may not like it, but that's it.

LOL, I reach salvation by God's gracious choice...the same message that Christ and the Apostles taught. Perhaps you think they are all Pharisees.
You are avoiding the question. I suggest you are doing so because you finally see the problem, but can't bring yourself to admit it.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Please answer the question.

 

[MennoSota]

Is Christ's mission pass/fail? You seem to think so. Who are the Elect? Do you know? Have you the mind of God?

Then the Lord answered Menno out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.​

You know the pickle you are in. I see it in your avoidance.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Please answer the question.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,


Yup, you can appoint yourself to ask questions. I suppose you can even appoint you yourself to give your opinion on the question of yourself (as can anyone). But none of that is substantiation for ANYTHING. It is not an apologetic AT ALL. All it does is show you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence. That's it, that's all. Stop showing you know how to ask a question and substantiate the dogma you seem to embrace. We're now on page 24 of you totally evading the issue you brought up. No one cares that you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence because it has nothing to do with anything. The issue here is not how to ask a question but did Christ die ONLY for the church, the elect, the few, the minority.

And stop "the shell game" the CONSTANT changing of the subject.

 

[MennoSota]

MennoSota,


Yup, you can appoint yourself to ask questions. I suppose you can even appoint you yourself to give your opinion on the question of yourself (as can anyone). But none of that is substantiation for ANYTHING. It is not an apologetic AT ALL. All it does is show you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence. That's it, that's all. Stop showing you know how to ask a question and substantiate the dogma you seem to embrace. We're now on page 24 of you totally evading the issue you brought up. No one cares that you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence because it has nothing to do with anything. The issue here is not how to ask a question but did Christ die ONLY for the church, the elect, the few, the minority.

And stop "the shell game" the CONSTANT changing of the subject.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

This is a simple question y'all refuse to answer. I know why.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You know the pickle you are in. I see it in your avoidance.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Please answer the question.

No, it did not "fail" (as if it could). His atonement is the greatest success story in the history of mankind and was for the salvation of the whole world. Now answer the questions posed to you

Answered above^^^

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

This is a simple question y'all refuse to answer. I know why.

You've no clue why

 

[Albion]

You've no clue why

On the other hand, since we now have confirmation that he does know, and knows that we are all "Universalists" to boot, there is no need to entertain any more interrogation about our views on this or any related topic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

On the other hand, since we now have confirmation that he does know, and knows that we are all "Universalists" to boot, there is no need to entertain any more interrogation about our views on this or any related topic.

'tis hard to debate with an all-knowing interlocutor

 

[MennoSota]

Answered above^^^

What specific question?

 

[MennoSota]

You've no clue why

Of course I have a clue. You can see your pickle and you therefore refuse an answer.

 

[pinacled]

You've no clue why

Actually mennas is quite keen. I saw the subtlety of the universal creed also.
The stench was unmistakeabl. They are attempting to use guile in having people repeat an oath.

Yet nothing will sever the bond of peace given to the Faithful elect.

Try as they might, it is the universal attempt at futility. Lucifer no longer has the keys of death. Hence the whore and her offspring seeking death and not finding it.

 

[pinacled]

On the other hand, since we now have confirmation that he does know, and knows that we are all "Universalists" to boot, there is no need to entertain any more interrogation about our views on this or any related topic.

Who's we?

 

[Andrew]

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

This is a simple question y'all refuse to answer. I know why.

No one here is going to agree that Christ failed at anything.

 

[MennoSota]

No one here is going to agree that Christ failed at anything.

True, but if Christ atoned for all humanity then all humanity must be atoned for. In that line of belief, all humanity must be going to heaven because all their sins are paid for.
But...Josiah, ID2, MC, Lamm, Albion, Arsenios, etc., will not agree with that. Instead, they will say that Christ fully atoned for sins, but humans can reject the atonement and sin greater than Jesus blood can atone. They claim that unbelief can conquer Jesus atonement for sin.
So, as long as they refuse to acknowledge the contradiction in their theology, they will fight for unbelief as the conqueror over Jesus sacrificial payment.

My position is that Jesus sacrifice was only for those the Father has given him. Not one drop of His blood was ineffective to fully pay for sin. God not only saves, but He secures the belief of all whom the Father has given him. His chosen can not not believe.
Josiah says that he can fall away into perdition and God can't save him if Josiah so chooses to fall. He makes Jesus words to be false when Jesus tells his chosen that He would never leave them nor forsake them. He makes Paul a liar when Paul says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No one here is going to agree that Christ failed at anything.

That depends on how you phrase the question. For example, "did Christ fail to sin?"