Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

Big difference from a pre-determined "elect"



For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life



Has Christ returned? And on another note, shall we judge Christ of being "successful" as if he were being evaluated on his performance?

The whosoever is any elect from any socio-economic standing. Read all of John 3. It's not universalism like you are attempting.
Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

 

[Albion]

The whosoever is any elect from any socio-economic standing. Read all of John 3. It's not universalism like you are attempting.
Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Honestly, you lose me completely when you flat-out lie about the other person's beliefs like that. And I think that's getting to be almost "universal." :biglaugh:

 

[MoreCoffee]

1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

2Corinthians 5:15 And Christ died for all; that they also who live, may not now live to themselves, but unto him who died for them, and rose again.

1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

I suppose all the verses can be made to fit the L of TULIP if a chap works hard enough at it.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...only the elect are saved by grace. Limited...

The "only" is conjecture by the person who believes he/she knows who's who.

Point, set, match.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The whosoever is any elect from any socio-economic standing. Read all of John 3. It's not universalism like you are attempting.
Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

I've asked you this already and you dodged it. Has Christ returned? Shall we judge his 'success' as if we were examining his performance on this matter? One ought not think so highly of oneself as to assume to know the answer to your question

 

[MennoSota]

Honestly, you lose me completely when you flat-out lie about the other person's beliefs like that. And I think that's getting to be almost "universal." :biglaugh:

Answer the question.

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Who shall judge? You're doing this much to quickly. You've been asked some legitimate questions I think you should really answer. It's too bad this isn't a face to face conversation. I don't imagine you'd be getting away with this

 

[MennoSota]

Point, set, match.

Who does God make alive in Christ? (Ephesians 2:4-6) Is it the non elect, those whom God has not adopted? (Ephesians 1:4-5)

Thanks for acknowledging that I have won the point, the set and the match. Scripture is clear on this, even if you are muddled on the subject.

 

[MennoSota]

I've asked you this already and you dodged it. Has Christ returned? Shall we judge his 'success' as if we were examining his performance on this matter? One ought not think so highly of oneself as to assume to know the answer to your question

You question makes no sense on this issue.
What does it matter if Christ has returned to rule on earth or not when we consider for whom his sacrificial death made atonement?
Either all people are saved because all humans are atoned for by the blood of Christ. Or, only the elect were atoned for on the cross.
The third option is that Christ's atonement failed the vast majority because human will is greater than God's will.
Of those three options, which do you choose?
On this issue there is only these three options.

 

[MennoSota]

I asked: Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?
You responded:

Who shall judge? You're doing this much to quickly. You've been asked some legitimate questions I think you should really answer. It's too bad this isn't a face to face conversation. I don't imagine you'd be getting away with this

You be the judge.
Answer the question.
Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...even if you are muddled on the subject.

You ought to try some mud sometime. It works wonders in restoring one's sight:

"While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to (the blind man's) eyes, and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing." (Jn 9:5-7).​

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I asked: Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?
You responded:You be the judge.
Answer the question.
Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

You remind me of the Pharisees:

"Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?"

 

[MoreCoffee]

I asked: Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Yes. Christ expiatory death was for the whole world and is effective for the whole world.

 

[MennoSota]

You ought to try some mud sometime. It works wonders in restoring one's sight:

"While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to (the blind man's) eyes, and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing." (Jn 9:5-7).​

My goodness...that verse has nothing to do with atonement for sins...

 

[MennoSota]

You remind me of the Pharisees:

"Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?"

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Simple question that you refuse to answer.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes. Christ expiatory death was for the whole world and is effective for the whole world.

Thank you for answering. Which Unitarian/Universalist church do you attend?
Under that view, there is no need for a human to change their lifestyle, repent, seek forgiveness, etc. All humans are saved and will enjoy life with Christ for all humans have had their sins atoned for.

 

[Josiah]

Answer the question. Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

1. Yes, you can appoint yourself to ask questions. I suppose you can even appoint you yourself to give your opinion on the question of yourself (as can anyone). But none of that is substantiation for ANYTHING. It is not an apologetic AT ALL. All it does is show you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence (most can). That's it, that's all. Stop showing you know how to ask a question and substantiate the dogma you seem to embrace. We're now on page 24 of you totally evading the issue you brought up. No one cares that you know how to put a question mark at the end of a sentence because it has nothing to do with anything. The issue here is not how to ask a question but did Christ die ONLY for the church, the elect, the few, the minority.


2. This thread is not about why some are saved and not others. You are persistent in "the shell game" (as it's called in debate) - constantly, persistently changing the subject. EVERY TIME you realize you have no "card" to play, no apologetic to offer, you just change the subject. This just illustrates (very powerfully) that you have nothing.


3. The Reformation Theology on justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. That all aspects of this must be in place. Your position is that the variable is the "Solus Christus" part. The position of God, of Scripture, of every Christian on the planet (past and present) except for a tiny, tiny subset of Calvinists whom Calvinists generally repudiate as "hyper-Calvinists" is that the variable is faith. While Christ embraces everyone, not everyone embraces Christ via faith. And friend, while you and I agree that faith is a divine gift, that issue is irrelevant here - whether faith is seen as a divine gift or a human choice, we agree it's FAITH that is the variable, that isn't "there" in all cases... and since it is what embraces/accepts/trusts/replies/apprehends the Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, without it, salvation is not attained.


4. You have yet to address the topic you yourself raised: "Christ died ONLY for the church." You have not given even one verse where the word "only" even appears - in any context, for anything at all. NOTHING about Christ dying for only a few, a minority. And you have just totally ignored all the verses - and there are many, many of them - which state the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you do. Friend, there is a reason why nearly all Calvinists repudiate the "L" in TULIP or at the least entirely redefine it. They've realized what is obvious.... this is a very unbiblical concept, directly contrary to what God says.




A blessed Christmas to all...


- Josiah





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[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for answering.

You are welcome.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

My goodness...that verse has nothing to do with atonement for sins...

I was hoping you'd maybe get the point about seeing properly

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Did Christ's universal atonement fail to atone universally?

Simple question that you refuse to answer.

I don't recall that Christ answered the question of the Pharisees how they wanted either. Christ doesn't do this pass/fail. That's my answer. You may not like it, but that's it.