Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

MennoSota

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Could he? Is he contrary to himself? Could he act contrary to saving the elect? Reversing the very act that brought sin into the world would have negated the Law and, hence, the need for Christ to do anything.



Did he? Again, is he acting contrary to himself? The issue of choice has been at the very heart of your posts throughout many threads.
There is nothing contrary in God's holy nature in God allowing some of His creatures to fail.
God did not cause them to fail. God never acted contrary to His holiness. He, by His Sovereignty, allowed angels and humans to fail. For angels, there is no grace provided. For humans, there is grace provided.
God could have said no and not allowed his creatures to fail. God chose to allow it to happen. God never tells us why He allowed it. God is not obligated to tell us. We are left with Paul's response to the same inquiry: Romans 9:20

But who are you, O man,*to answer back to God?*Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
 

Josiah

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None of them say that Jesus atoned for the sins of the goats.

They say "ALL" "THE WHOLE WORLD" Etc. There is no verse that says ONLY the elect, ONLY the church, ONLY the few, ONLY Calvinists. If such a verse existed that remotely says what you do, you would have quoted it in the opening post, so I think it is obvious you know Scripture never says what you do. MANY obviously say the exact opposite.


I have explained all your verses so you know that the atonement is for all the elect.


Not one of the remotely says that. We all know that.

You did find one verse that says Christ died for the elect. And no one disputes that. But it doesn't say what you do: That He died ONLY for the elect. Your "logic" here - your entire apologetic - is as illogical as possible: If I said I love my wife, your apologetic is that ERGO it is a DOGMATIC FACT that I don't love God. How silly. I love my wife.... but I love my parents, my siblings and certainly God, too - and have said so, just as God over and over says that He loves the whole world, that Christ died for all.


You teach that Jesus atonement fails for all who willfully, by their own actions, choose not to believe.
Jesus atonement, according to you, fails to be greater than the human will.
You are requiring humans to merit their salvation by choosing to believe in God's atonement by their own fleshly will. If they fail in this attempt, God cannot save them.
That is what you are teaching. You may be utterly blind to this fact, but it is absolutely your teaching. You are echoing Arminius.


Of course, as everyone knows, I've never said ANY of those things.... you are just totally making it up. Which is why you can't quote me saying "by our own actions" or "by our choice" or "human will" or "merit" or any of the things to keep insisting I've said but you can't quote me and everyone here knows isn't true.

What I said is that not all are saved because not all have faith. There's nothing synergistic or Pelagian or Arminian about that.



MennoSota said:
There is nothing contrary in God's holy nature in God allowing some of His creatures to fail.
God did not cause them to fail. God never acted contrary to His holiness. He, by His Sovereignty, allowed angels and humans to fail. For angels, there is no grace provided. For humans, there is grace provided.
God could have said no and not allowed his creatures to fail. God chose to allow it to happen. God never tells us why He allowed it.


Stay on topic....


This thread is not about God's nature, not about if some "fail", not about predestination (single, double, or not-at-all), not about God's holiness, not about if God or Queen Elizabeth II is sovereign, not about angels.

This thread is about your insistence that Christ died for ONLY the elect, the church, the few, a (never disclosed) short list of people.

You've had 21 pages to give a verse that states that. You have not.

You've had 21 pages to show why all the Scriptures we've offered that flat-out contradict your pov are wrong. You have not.



.
 
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MennoSota

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They say "ALL" "THE WHOLE WORLD" Etc. There is no verse that says ONLY the elect, ONLY the church, ONLY the few, ONLY Calvinists. If such a verse existed that remotely says what you do, you would have quoted it in the opening post, so I think it is obvious you know Scripture never says what you do. MANY obviously say the exact opposite.





Not one of the remotely says that. We all know that.

You did find one verse that says Christ died for the elect. And no one disputes that. But it doesn't say what you do: That He died ONLY for the elect. Your "logic" here - your entire apologetic - is as illogical as possible: If I said I love my wife, your apologetic is that ERGO it is a DOGMATIC FACT that I don't love God. How silly. I love my wife.... but I love my parents, my siblings and certainly God, too - and have said so, just as God over and over says that He loves the whole world, that Christ died for all.





Of course, as everyone knows, I've never said ANY of those things.... you are just totally making it up. Which is why you can't quote me saying "by our own actions" or "by our choice" or "human will" or "merit" or any of the things to keep insisting I've said but you can't quote me and everyone here knows isn't true.

What I said is that not all are saved because not all have faith. There's nothing synergistic or Pelagian or Arminian about that.



.
Do the elect live only in one location or do they live throughout the whole world, Josiah?
I find it fascinating how you are avoiding the elephant in the room with your responses.
 

MoreCoffee

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I find it fascinating how you are avoiding the elephant in the room with your responses.

Would that "elephant in the room" be this: He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2
 

MennoSota

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Josiah wrote:
What I said is that not all are saved because not all have faith. There's nothing synergistic or Pelagian or Arminian about that.
Only the elect have faith.
Yet you claim all human sins are atoned for by Jesus sacrificial death.
You make the atonement null and void. You make salvation only about faith, not about atonement at all.
So...once again...
Is Jesus atonement for sins ineffective for all humans whom God does not gift faith? Did Jesus blood get spilt in vain?
You claim the atonement for sin is universal. Yet, you say it is ineffectual for all, except to those whom God gifts faith.
Josiah, you limit God's atonement for the elect...or...you claim God's atonement failed for those who are not elect. These are the options you have set up.
 

MennoSota

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Would that "elephant in the room" be this: He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2
Are the elect found in the whole world or only in Ephesus?
MC, your interpretation makes you a universalist.
 

MoreCoffee

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It seems that a commentary, from an Anglican source, may be useful here. I do not follow it's teaching but it is a good reminder that this thread is about the expiatory sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:2
And He is the propitiation] Or, And He Himself is a propitiation: there is no article in the Greek. Note the present tense throughout; ‘we have an Advocate, He is a propitiation’: this condition of things is perpetual, it is not something which took place once for all long ago. In His glorified Body the Son is ever acting thus. Contrast ‘He laid down His life for us’ (1Jn 3:16). Beware of the unsatisfactory explanation that ‘propitiation’ is the abstract for the concrete, ‘propitiation’ (ἱλασμός) for ‘propitiator’ (ἱλαστήρ). Had S. John written ‘propitiator’ we should have lost half the truth; viz. that our Advocate propitiates by offering Himself. He is both High Priest and Victim, both Propitiator and Propitiation. It is quite obvious that He is the former; the office of Advocate includes it. It is not at all obvious that He is the latter: very rarely does an advocate offer himself as a propitiation.

The word for ‘propitiation’ occurs nowhere in N. T. but here and in 1Jn 4:10; in both places without the article and followed by ‘for our sins’. It signifies any action which has expiation as its object, whether prayer, compensation, or sacrifice. Thus ‘the ram of the atonement’ (Num 5:8) is ‘the ram of the propitiation’ or ‘expiation’, where the same Greek word as is used here is used in the LXX. Comp. Eze 44:27; Num 29:11; Lev 25:9. The LXX. of ‘there is forgiveness with Thee’ (Psa 130:4) is remarkable: literally rendered it is ‘before Thee is the propitiation’ (ὁ ἱλασμός). So also the Vulgate, apud Te propitiatio est. And this is the idea that we have here: Jesus Christ, as being righteous, is ever present before the Lord as the propitiation. With this we should compare the use of the cognate verb in Heb 2:17 and cognate substantive Rom 3:25 and Heb 9:5. From these passages it is clear that in N. T. the word is closely connected with that special form of expiation which takes place by means of an offering or sacrifice, although this idea is not of necessity included in the radical signification of the word itself. See notes in all three places.

for our sins] Literally, concerning (περἱ) our sins: our sins are the matter respecting which the propitiation goes on. This is the common form of expression in LXX. Comp. Num 29:11; Exo 30:15-16; Exo 32:30; Lev 4:20; Lev 4:26; Lev 4:31; Lev 4:35, &c. &c. Similarly, in Joh 8:46, ‘Which of you convicteth Me of sin?’ is literally, ‘Which of you convicteth Me concerning sin?’ Comp. Joh 16:8; Joh 10:33. Notice that it is ‘our sins’, not ‘our sin’: the sins which we are daily committing, and not merely the sinfulness of our nature, are the subject of the propitiation.

and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world] More literally, but also for the whole world: ‘the sins of’ is not repeated in the Greek and is not needed in English. Once more we have a parallel with the Gospel, and especially with chap. 17. ‘Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that shall believe on Me through their word … that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me … that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and lovedst them, even as Thou lovedst Me’ (Joh 17:20-23): ‘Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world’ (Joh 1:29): ‘We know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world’ (Joh 4:24). Comp. 1Jn 4:14. S. John’s writings are so full of the fundamental opposition between Christ or believers and the world, that there was danger lest he should seem to give his sanction to a Christian exclusiveness as fatal as the Jewish exclusiveness out of which he and other converts from Judaism had been delivered. Therefore by this (note especially ‘the whole world’) and other plain statements both in Gospel (see Joh 11:51 in particular) and Epistle he insists that believers have no exclusive right to the merits of Christ. The expiatory offering was made for the whole world without limitation. All who will may profit by it: quam late peccatum, tam late propitiatio (Bengel). The disabilities under which the whole human race had laboured were removed. It remained to be seen who would avail themselves of the restored privileges. ‘The world’ (ὁ κόσμος) is another of S. John’s characteristic expressions. In his writings it generally means those who are alienated from God, outside the pale of the Church. But we should fall into grievous error if we assigned this meaning to the word indiscriminately. Thus, in ‘the world was made by Him’ (Joh 1:10) it means ‘the universe’; in ‘This is of a truth the Prophet that cometh into the world’ (Joh 6:14) it means ‘the earth’; in ‘God so loved the world’ (Joh 3:16) it means, as here, ‘the inhabitants of the earth, the human race’. But still the prevalent meaning in both Gospel and Epistle is a bad one; ‘those who have not accepted the Christ, unbelievers.’ In the Apocalypse it occurs only thrice, once in the usual sense, ‘The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord’ (Joh 11:15), and twice in the sense of ‘the universe’ (Joh 13:8, Joh 17:8).
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Do the elect live only in one location or do they live throughout the whole world, Josiah?
I find it fascinating how you are avoiding the elephant in the room with your responses.

Ya know, sometimes... just sometimes...
 

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MennoSota

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Ya know, sometimes... just sometimes...
Ignore works, ID2.
However, you're just diverting from the issue. It's probably because you would like to avoid the elephant in your theology.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Ignore works, ID2.
However, you're just diverting from the issue. It's probably because you would like to avoid the elephant in your theology.

I don't see any elephants personally:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

(Oh, and don't mind 'Bancini' up there. He gets a little unsettled when things are out of order)
 

MennoSota

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I don't see any elephants personally:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing;
it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

(Oh, and don't mind 'Bancini' up there. He gets a little unsettled when things are out of order)
Is the "you" universal or only the elect?
 

Josiah

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Only the elect have faith.

Stay on topic.

This thread is not whether only some have faith, it's whether Jesus died for ONLY some.

This thread isn't about predestination (single, double or not-at-all), it's not about whether faith is a gift of God or a choice of man, it's not about whether all are saved or not, it's about the dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died for ONLY the elect, the church, the few, the minority. It's a dogma you have been claiming to defend for defend for 22 pages now.



You make salvation only about faith, not about atonement at all.


Quote me where I stated that....


No, I said that justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, that all 3 must be in place for Justification. And I said I agree with God in 1 John 2:2, etc., etc., etc., etc. And that you have yet to produce anything that states what you do: That Jesus died for ONLY a few.



MennoSota said:
Josiah, you limit God's atonement for the elect...or...you claim God's atonement failed for those who are not elect.


Again, quote me.... WHERE did I post that?


And stop trying to change the subject (it's called "the shell game" in debate). The issue is NOT whether all are saved, the issue is whether Jesus died ONLY for the few, the elect, the church. We're discussing the "L" in TULIP, which is not "limited faith" or "limited results" but Limited ATONEMENT - and you correctly defined what is meant by that, that Christ died for ONLY a few, the elect. NOT that only the elect are saved but that Christ died ONLY for them. Stick to the subject.



What does God say?

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)


Do you have a verse that says Christ died for ONLY a few? For ONLY the elect, the church, the Calvinists... a never-disclosed short list of a minority of people? If you do, please finally provide it.
 

MennoSota

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Stay on topic.

This thread is not whether only some have faith, it's whether Jesus died for ONLY some.

This thread isn't about predestination (single, double or not-at-all), it's not about whether faith is a gift of God or a choice of man, it's not about whether all are saved or not, it's about the dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists, that Jesus died for ONLY the elect, the church, the few, the minority. It's a dogma you have been claiming to defend for defend for 22 pages now.






Quote me where I stated that....


No, I said that justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE, that all 3 must be in place for Justification. And I said I agree with God in 1 John 2:2, etc., etc., etc., etc. And that you have yet to produce anything that states what you do: That Jesus died for ONLY a few.






Again, quote me.... WHERE did I post that?


And stop trying to change the subject (it's called "the shell game" in debate). The issue is NOT whether all are saved, the issue is whether Jesus died ONLY for the few, the elect, the church. We're discussing the "L" in TULIP, which is not "limited faith" or "limited results" but Limited ATONEMENT - and you correctly defined what is meant by that, that Christ died for ONLY a few, the elect. NOT that only the elect are saved but that Christ died ONLY for them. Stick to the subject.



What does God say?

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)


Do you have a verse that says Christ died for ONLY a few? For ONLY the elect, the church, the Calvinists... a never-disclosed short list of a minority of people? If you do, please finally provide it.
Josiah, you have effectively avoided your elephant problem in the room.
I have correctly summarized your position and your conflict. You refuse to address the problem I have outlined. You refuse to acknowledge that I already have addressed your verses, which you continue to list (without any context, I will add). I have answered your massive flaws and pointed them out. All you do is attempt to move goalposts.
I have shared Bible passages that show Christ atoning for the elect. You have ignored them all.
The Bible is clear and the logic is obvious...Jesus atoned only for the elect. The elect are the only ones who have faith because faith is a gift from God.
I now expect you to entirely avoid your problems and just cut and paste as is your modis operandi.
 

Josiah

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I have correctly summarized your position


No. You have stated I posted things I've NEVER REMOTELY said (which is why you won't quote me), absurdities that (while irrelevant to this thread) are known to everyone as things very contrary to what I believe and have consistently stated. You've simply failed to defend your position by condemning things you falsely attribute to me that you just made up.



You refuse to address the problem I have outlined


Outlining a "problem" is not defending your position. I understand that you have a problem but that substantiates only one thing: you have a problem.

You claim that Jesus died for ONLY a few. You have yet to present one Scripture that remotely states that. And have ignored a plethora of Scriptures that flat-out state the exact opposite. The "problem" is yours.



I have shared Bible passages that show Christ atoning for the elect. You have ignored them all.


... you presented one verse. I didn't at all ignore it or disagree with it, I accepted verbatim EXACTLY what it says. No need for me to add anything to it. And nope, there's no "ONLY" in the verse. Your entire point is entirely missing in the only verse you've presented.

The dogma you are parroting is NOT "Jesus died for the elect" (no one here challenges that, we all totally agree with it), the dogma you are parroting is that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few. Try to stick to the subject.



The elect are the only ones who have faith


Again, "the shell game" The issue is not "Only some have faith" it's "Jesus died for only the elect." The dogma is not "Limited faith" but "Limited Atonement" which you correctly stated is that Jesus died for ONLY the elect. NOT that only the elect have faith. Please stop changing the subject to evade the dogma we are discussing: Jesus died ONLY for the church, the elect, the few.


If you have a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY the elect, please finally share it.




.
 

MennoSota

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No. You have stated I posted things I've NEVER REMOTELY said (which is why you won't quote me), absurdities that (while irrelevant to this thread) are known to everyone as things very contrary to what I believe and have consistently stated. You've simply failed to defend your position by condemning things you falsely attribute to me that you just made up.






Outlining a "problem" is not defending your position. I understand that you have a problem but that substantiates only one thing: you have a problem.

You claim that Jesus died for ONLY a few. You have yet to present one Scripture that remotely states that. And have ignored a plethora of Scriptures that flat-out state the exact opposite. The "problem" is yours.






... you presented one verse. I didn't at all ignore it or disagree with it, I accepted verbatim EXACTLY what it says. No need for me to add anything to it. And nope, there's no "ONLY" in the verse. Your entire point is entirely missing in the only verse you've presented.

The dogma you are parroting is NOT "Jesus died for the elect" (no one here challenges that, we all totally agree with it), the dogma you are parroting is that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few. Try to stick to the subject.






Again, "the shell game" The issue is not "Only some have faith" it's "Jesus died for only the elect." The dogma is not "Limited faith" but "Limited Atonement" which you correctly stated is that Jesus died for ONLY the elect. NOT that only the elect have faith. Please stop changing the subject to evade the dogma we are discussing: Jesus died ONLY for the church, the elect, the few.


If you have a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY the elect, please finally share it.




.
I have shared passages of scripture that indicate Jesus died for those he came to save.
Did Jesus come to save the entire world?
If yes, was Jesus successful in saving the entire world?
 

Josiah

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I have shared passages of scripture that indicate Jesus died for those he came to save.

Nope. You offered one that said Jesus died for the elect - a point NO ONE HERE challenges or disagrees with. But the verse you offered is entirely missing your dogma, the "ONLY." Your entire dogma is completely missing from the verse. As we all know.




.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Is the "you" universal or only the elect?

The Apostle is addressing those who have been saved by grace. The "only" is conjecture by the person who believes he/she knows who's who. Universality, however, is nowhere implied in the written word.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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I have shared passages of scripture that indicate Jesus died for those he came to save.

Big difference from a pre-determined "elect"

Did Jesus come to save the entire world?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life

If yes, was Jesus successful in saving the entire world?

Has Christ returned? And on another note, shall we judge Christ of being "successful" as if he were being evaluated on his performance?
 

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Nope. You offered one that said Jesus died for the elect - a point NO ONE HERE challenges or disagrees with. But the verse you offered is entirely missing your dogma, the "ONLY." Your entire dogma is completely missing from the verse. As we all know.




.
Was Jesus atonement effective for all humanity? If not, by what merit or dismerit of humanity did it fail?
 

MennoSota

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The Apostle is addressing those who have been saved by grace. The "only" is conjecture by the person who believes he/she knows who's who. Universality, however, is nowhere implied in the written word.
...and...only the elect are saved by grace. Limited...
 
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