Short story by your truly (Holy Spirit Baptism)

[Andrew]

Hoff, I have told you that my church anoints those who are sick with oil as James stated. We lay hands on people and pray for them. We beseech God to fill us to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. God graciously works within our church. We just don't make a show of it. We don't badger our congregation or claim they are not filled with the Holy Spirit if they do not babble in unknown speech. We let scripture guide our actions and try not to presume upon God to do something He never promised.

I don't care for showy churches either Menno, I like a personal small town church with a good worship service, good sermons and good a prayer service the same as you do.
Let's just move out of mega church spectacles and talk about something we both have in common then...
The church I was going to used oil too!

 

[psalms 91]

I don't agree with Menno who attacks even my experience, I'm not offended but I feel I must defend you because I know it's just as possible for you as it was for me.. like we just kind of 'get it' ya know?
Menno seems to believe that you believe that it's all real and there are no hoaxers :/
There for Menno believes it's impossible to experience a spiritual conversion by the laying on of hands...
You see, when Menno thinks of you he automatically pictures people being tossed around like rag dolls and convulsing on the floor like a mad circus, he most likely gets this idea from watching Charismatic mega churches... my church was fairly small, nobody ever acted like that! Sure we danced and I liked to run with joy and celebration before the sermon started, then we sat and listened and we werent afraid to shout out in joy because we just love hearing the good news of salvation, after the sermon they asked if any one needed healing and they would heal by laying on of hands and the whole church would pray over them, utterances would begin and you can hear the pain in these people and then you hear the relief and you can feel their blessing as you see the cry joys of happiness and smile thanking the Lord Jesus... like I said Psalms, I loved this part of the church but certain people in the church had very strict and bad theologies and also some of the people there really pushed me over the edge by their judging of me.

Thank you, yes my experience was and is real and I can only pray that they are hit with the Holy Spirit themselves and I know it can happen. I took a friend a long time ago to a service with an evangelist and he also did not believe but went because of me. Well in that service the evangelist was walking towards him and he fell in the power of the spirit without anyone touching him. He was not the same for about three days as the spirit ministered to him and now that he has experienced it first hand he is a believer.

 

[Lamb]

... I can only pray that they are hit with the Holy Spirit themselves and I know it can happen.

This part of your post implies that other Christians don't have the Holy Spirit. Anyone who has faith HAS the Holy Spirit. He brings to us different gifts as well as our own different experiences in our lives.

 

[psalms 91]

This part of your post implies that other Christians don't have the Holy Spirit. Anyone who has faith HAS the Holy Spirit. He brings to us different gifts as well as our own different experiences in our lives.

Not at all Lamm I only want them to experiemce that power and that peace from that experience. It is real whether people choose to believe it or not. The Spirit is with us always and speaks to us and gives us a peace and leads us if we let him but that is not the experience I am talking about

 

[tango]

Since we have gone straight to the heart of the matter here, let me be as clear as possible about my own thinking regarding this (which I think speaks for many other Christians as well).

You and I agree that it is not possible to prove or disprove these things. So that might be a big step in the right direction. However...

I do reject some of that which comes along with it.

1) the smug, self-righteous attitude that far too many charismatics/pentecostals exhibit which says that anyone who even so much as doubts a single reported instance of such claims is lacking the Holy Spirit himself, just doesn't understand, isn't a complete Christian, or the rest of that kind of nonsense.

2) the refusal on the part of charismatics/pentecostal Christians to admit that many people who have reported such phenomena can be wrong about it and, also, that there really are many cases of phony tongues, words of knowledge, etc. Some of this IS downright artificial, contrived. Of course, that doesn't mean that all are in that category, but to the true-believer type of Pentecostal, any doubting at all is inadmissible! And, by the way, it is entirely possible to think you--anyone--has been gifted and then be transformed as a result of that conviction, whether the phenomena were genuine or not.

3) Sometimes the devil mimics the gifts. Of course the devil's copy isn't the same as the original but to those who can't (or won't) discern they can look mightily similar. I used to speak in tongues, see the future and heal people when I was heavily involved in the occult. Somehow I doubt that was God's spirit at work.


The trouble with trying to determine whether a third-hand account of something that might have been the Holy Spirit, might have been an evil spirit, might have been a well-placed stooge and might have been a misunderstanding is that there is no way for someone hearing the tale to know. This is why I typically ignore grand claims, however impressive they may be, because there's simply no way of knowing. And frankly it makes no difference to me which of the options proves to be the corect one because it changes nothing about my life.

Peter's ministry was validated by miracles. Right here, right now. Not the kind of miracle people heard about but never got anywhere near Peter because he seldom mixed with the little people. Not something people were expected to believe because to doubt was to lack some special gift. He was right there, among the people, performing miracles. When the lame man at the beautiful gate was healed everybody knew he had been there for years and everybody knew he was lame (striking out any chance he was just a stooge). Everybody could see him shouting and jumping and praising God (a far cry from some charlatan types who encourage a wheelchair user to take a few faltering steps before falling into the arms of waiting helpers to "prove their healing" only to blame their "lack of fiath" when they "lose" the healing they never had) and so everybody could see something very unusual had happened. When all you have is a third-hand account of something happening to someone else, somewhere else, it's a bunch of hearsay that may or may not be true.

 

[Albion]

Not at all Lamm I only want them to experiemce that power and that peace from that experience. It is real whether people choose to believe it or not. The Spirit is with us always and speaks to us and gives us a peace and leads us if we let him but that is not the experience I am talking about

All right, but that isn't what the majority of Christians think about the presence of the Holy Ghost--that he is with us all the time like something in our hearts, etc.

Throughout history, the Christian churches have believed that we receive Grace or the Holy Ghost through the sacraments Christ ordained for the purpose.

 

[tango]

I was led into those experiences by the Holy Spirit and ministered by Him so no not my experience but His

But the simple matter is you are using experience as a determinant of truth. It happened to you, you believe it was the Holy Spirit, therefore nothing else matters.

The trouble with this is that it's very easy to believe all sorts of things because Spirit. I attended a church for a time (a short time) where they were into all sorts of wacky and kooky practises. They would do things like go to the mountaintops to "break curses off the land" (whatever that means). They performed this prophetic prayer and that prophetic act but couldn't say anything useful about what it was or why they were doing it. They insisted they were a "prophetic people" verbally because of their experiences, but few people could say much about their experiences. They would declare this and decree that but never stop and think when the things they declared never came to pass. They couldn't even explain why wrenching Job 22:28 out of its context and using it to mean the exact opposite of what it actually means aided their cause but frequently quoted the verse. They followed prophets who "spoke directly from God" on a more or less daily basis but very seldom saw their "prophecies" come to pass, and yet despite a list of failed prophecies they still followed these so-called prophets. Sometimes one of them would see a fulfilment of one of their "prophecies" but usually only if you were extremely generous on the vagueness front and accepted the loosest possible concept of "fulfilled", but if you were allowing such vague matches to count you'd also have to acknowledge that just about any attempt to see the future was valid because most of them come up with some kinda-sorta-matches if they have enough goes at getting it right.

All of these people claimed to be filled with the Spirit. Sometimes people would go as far as describing some concept that seemed so far out in left field it beggared belief but apparently they dreamed it and when they woke up "the Holy Spirit was all over them" and therefore this weird thing was theologically sound. At one point the church started following a "prophetic teacher" who demonstrably taught the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches. Apparently the leadership of the church watched his videos and read his materials and because they "didn't get any checks in their spirits" they concluded it was sound and fed the toxic teaching to the church. I left the church because I honestly wasn't sure whether they were following the right god any more.

The trouble with experiences like this is that sometimes they can be very powerful. Sometimes they can be misguiding. When they happen in the context of a church service that consists of extended singing of upbeat and repetitive music (as a depressing number of charismatic/pentecostal churches are prone to do) I tend to be a little sceptical of them. The other issue with a lot of things that are experience-related is that, like with healings and the like, they often don't work when recounted to people who don't know you. I don't imagine you spend your days making stuff up to sound good on message boards but there's no way I can know from your descriptions whether you truly experienced something special from God or merely experienced the kind of emotional euphoria presented as a move of God that took me in so many times as a teenager, or something else entirely.

 

[MennoSota]

Not at all Lamm I only want them to experiemce that power and that peace from that experience. It is real whether people choose to believe it or not. The Spirit is with us always and speaks to us and gives us a peace and leads us if we let him but that is not the experience I am talking about

91, I have experienced the power of God in my life. I have experienced His peace that passes all understanding. God has no reason to slay a person in a grand spectacle before other humans. His work isn't a group entertainment sideshow. His work is the indwelling and filling of our life with the Holy Spirit's counsel.
What you describe is a childish experience for which Paul wrote two letters to rebuke the Corinthians. Paul would rather have a few words of edification to the body of Christ than a slew of unknown babble. Why do you lift up the childish things as being more valuable than the mature things? You have a pridefulness in a childish experience so that you imagine others who haven't had that childish experience to somehow be missing out on the fullness of God's Spirit. Your understanding is faulty in this area, 91.

 

[MennoSota]

It should be noted that baptism means "to immerse," it does not mean "to possess."
The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. We are immersed into Christ. We become a part of Christ's body.
This is not a possession by the Holy Spirit upon our bodies. No need to be "slain" in the Spirit. In fact, you can find no such talk or description in the Bible. Such experiences are manufactured by people seeking a radical experience rather than living by faith alone. It is childish and immature... and...faithless.
Does that mean these people do not desire God? No. Many desire God and seek God. They just struggle to have faith without having an experience. Therefore, they seek an experience and call it a sign from God.
Since they refuse to have their experience evaluated by scripture, anyone who questions the experience is considered less than and someone for whom the ones with the "experience" should feel sorry.
Meanwhile, there are thousands of cults formed who have never been immersed into Christ, but have had an experience of unquestionable nature.

 

[Cassia]

It should be noted that baptism means "to immerse," it does not mean "to possess."
The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. We are immersed into Christ. We become a part of Christ's body.
This is not a possession by the Holy Spirit upon our bodies. No need to be "slain" in the Spirit. In fact, you can find no such talk or description in the Bible. Such experiences are manufactured by people seeking a radical experience rather than living by faith alone. It is childish and immature... and...faithless.
Does that mean these people do not desire God? No. Many desire God and seek God. They just struggle to have faith without having an experience. Therefore, they seek an experience and call it a sign from God.
Since they refuse to have their experience evaluated by scripture, anyone who questions the experience is considered less than and someone for whom the ones with the "experience" should feel sorry.
Meanwhile, there are thousands of cults formed who have never been immersed into Christ, but have had an experience of unquestionable nature.

The immersion should be into His word. Not much else matters after the fact of the elementary things. Not much else is applicable to those who are already baptized so isn’t that just preaching to the choir?

 

[MennoSota]

The immersion should be into His word. Not much else matters after the fact of the elementary things. Not much else is applicable to those who are already baptized so isn’t that just preaching to the choir?

Scripture says "into Christ", not "into His word."
Galatians 3:24-29

24*So then,*the law was our*guardian until Christ came,*in order that we might be justified by faith.*25*But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,*26*for in Christ Jesus*you are all sons of God, through faith.27*For as many of you as*were baptized*into Christ have*put on Christ.*28*There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave*nor free,*there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.*29*And*if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring,*heirs according to promise.

Let us stick with what scripture says, not what you want it to say, Cassia.

 

[Pedrito]

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DHoffmann in Post #29 [emphasis added to focus attention]:

Hit as in unexpected, out of nowhere, like a thief in the night.. but no I doubt the Apostles would say "have you been hit with the Holy Ghost since you believed?" lol but it sure did catch Paul off guard on his way to Damascus wouldn't you agree?

psalms 91 in Post #41:

...As for biblical reference I would point to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus and those who travelled with him

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I would quietly submit that the incident on the road to Damascus was somewhat unique. For instance:
- The incident was unparalleled in that God was choosing a special vessel for a ministry unique in history;
- Saul (Paul) was antipathetic to the Gospel when the experience commenced;
- The experience did not fill Saul with the Holy Spirit or result in personal supernatural manifestations (see Acts 9:17);
- The experience did not take place in the kind of environment with which modern manifestations are normally associated;
- The experience does not parallel God’s working supernaturally in the life of a believer;
- Nor is there anything to suggest that Saul’s travel companions were “slain in the Spirit” or given special powers, either.

So the invoking of that particular specialised situation to support a dissimilar general modern practice, lacks a degree of credence.

Especially since a careful reading of Acts Chapters 6 and 8 shows that only the Apostles had the power to confer the Holy Spirit in “power mode” on others. Refer particularly to Acts 6:3-5, Acts 8:5-8, Acts 8:14-17. (And while Acts 10:34-48 is a special case, i.e. the bringing of the Gospel to Gentiles, it still involved the presence of an apostle and in this case accepting minds predisposed to believe.)

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(In case some people are not aware, the Holy Spirit has two distinct modes of direct operation – the indwelling of true believers, and specific supernatural empowerment as seen in both the Old and New Testaments. It is helpful to keep these modes separate in one’s mind.)

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[Albion]

Scripture says "into Christ", not "into His word."
Galatians 3:24-29

Let us stick with what scripture says, not what you want it to say, Cassia.

According to your theology, then--and as you have explained it here--it doesn't matter if the sacrament of baptism causes you to be put totally under the waves or just dipped you into or soaked you with water.

(That's because immerse, according to you, means only immerse in Christ, as opposed to water!)

 

[MennoSota]

According to your theology, then--and as you have explained it here--it doesn't matter if the sacrament of baptism causes you to be put totally under the waves or just dipped you into or soaked you with water.

(That's because immerse, according to you, means only immerse in Christ, as opposed to water!)

Baptizo means immerse. Context allows us to discern into what the object is being immersed. This important fact is something that you seem incapable of grasping. Instead, you mistakenly make baptism a means of salvation as though it were a mystical ceremony that invokes God's action. You turn it into magic, which is anathema.

 

[Andrew]

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DHoffmann in Post #29 [emphasis added to focus attention]:


psalms 91 in Post #41:


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I would quietly submit that the incident on the road to Damascus was somewhat unique. For instance:
- The incident was unparalleled in that God was choosing a special vessel for a ministry unique in history;
- Saul (Paul) was antipathetic to the Gospel when the experience commenced;
- The experience did not fill Saul with the Holy Spirit or result in personal supernatural manifestations (see Acts 9:17);
- The experience did not take place in the kind of environment with which modern manifestations are normally associated;
- The experience does not parallel God’s working supernaturally in the life of a believer;
- Nor is there anything to suggest that Saul’s travel companions were “slain in the Spirit” or given special powers, either.

So the invoking of that particular specialised situation to support a dissimilar general modern practice, lacks a degree of credence.

Especially since a careful reading of Acts Chapters 6 and 8 shows that only the Apostles had the power to confer the Holy Spirit in “power mode” on others. Refer particularly to Acts 6:3-5, Acts 8:5-8, Acts 8:14-17. (And while Acts 10:34-48 is a special case, i.e. the bringing of the Gospel to Gentiles, it still involved the presence of an apostle and in this case accepting minds predisposed to believe.)

==============================================================================================

(In case some people are not aware, the Holy Spirit has two distinct modes of direct operation – the indwelling of true believers, and specific supernatural empowerment as seen in both the Old and New Testaments. It is helpful to keep these modes separate in one’s mind.)

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Not the point but that's ok. My original experience wasn't at a church btw, I was in a rage with my girlfriend at the time and was set on catching her cheating on me (I read a text where some guy said he was going to pick her up from town square and that he has drugs)... 10 minutes later I am laying on the street in the middle of town square with people praying over me, I felt my body getting filled with something Holy, the words they were saying where literally transforming my body... it felt like it was changing my DNA, my girlfriend was there praying over me too.. you see when I got there I saw people lying on the road and I was so confused... I stood there looking down at them, I looked up to the one praying over them and it was her, a man put his hand on my shoulder and said "You were brought her for a reason"... I started wailing the most dog gone annoying painful sound and it was so loud, I looked about and there were so many strangers coming towards me from all directions... I focused my eyes on her and she looked angelic, the atmosphere looked very angelic as well. I walked up to her still making loud moans and hugged her with tears running down my face and time felt frozen.. She started whispering "you have to let it go, you have to give it to the Lord" and all of a sudden my knees started to bow, I felt heavy and I felt that I had to surrender to the Lord, a man asked me "do you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior?" I replied "yes"... Thats when a roar of commotion around me started to seep into my body (its hard to explain, it felt like my body was literally made up of words :/ ) the words were so beautiful in calling on Jesus the creator of the Universe and the maker of men and so on... Others were people speaking in an unknown language but to me it sounded like a choir of angels, she was praying over me...by this point I notice that I had been on the ground for what seems like a timeless moment, I really dont know, I do know that it was the flashing of lights over my closed eyes that caught my attention and they got brighter and faster until I heard "get up" and it was her voice... I didn't want to tho, I wanted to stay there but I heard her again "get up" and I opened my eyes and stood up. I felt soo bewildered, it felt like a dream.
Ever since that day that I will never forget (12/13/2014 a sunday, at 6pm) I can not steal (I was a huge clepto) and I have lost a great deal of jealousy and strife, I no longer blasphemy, I obtained conviction and deliverance from the Father via his Spirit...
She never met up with anyone that night btw, she also had no clue that I was going to show up, I had no clue about the Holy Spirit or who these people were... All I know is that my life changed dramatically and it was something I had prayed for -for about 2 years prior at least. It was the working of the Holy Ghost IMHO and I will take that to the grave, no one can convince me other wise...
Now the second time was when I went to the Church and in that experience it was a healing as well, I gained new convictions and I quit drugs all together (btw that evening at town square I had been out of drugs so you can't blame it on that)...
God works in mysterious was but remember this... if you ask you shall receive, that's what I did but the timing was unknown to me...
Now do I believe that ALL should have this experience??? NOT FOR A SECOND! If I truly felt that way it would only be to say "here you got proof! now do you believe me?"... that would be selfish right? Indeed it would be. God speaks to all of his children! God loves us and shows us throughout our lives how much he loves us!
So for me, that was my road to Damascus so to speak, and what happened to Paul was an incredible and miraculous working of God into the soul of a man who was on the path to destruction...
God bless

 

[psalms 91]

Yes yes and yes! That is the Holy Spirit working as I have seen so many times in my life and others, A beautiful thing of God but I am sure it wont take long for someone to cast doubt about it.

 

[Pedrito]

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I thank DHoffmann for sharing with us his deep personal experience (in Post #95).

(And I thank you directly, if I may.)

It is clear that God honoured his (your) long-term seeking of Him, and his (your) openness to His help, in a most striking manner.

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If I may take the opportunity to float a general thought at this stage:

When God initially makes Himself known to individuals (to use a broad term), He does so through the means/situation/people that are at hand at that time.

It is natural to assume that that initial, introductory environment is where God wants one to remain, wants one to become an integral part of, and wants one to be loyal to. (“Come to my church” is sometimes heard.) But as some of us in CH know, that is not necessarily the case. A person’s initial experience (introduction, coming to faith, “being saved”) may be only a first step in a journey that God has planned for that person. Willingness to learn and to change dramatically (including environments), can open the way to undreamed of personal blessings.

(Just a thought for any to whom it might have meaning, either now or in the future.)

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[Albion]

Baptizo means immerse.

...among a number of other things.

You have already been schooled on this--several times. So please do not try to buffalo your readers every time it is helpful to your argument to choose the particular meaning you prefer at that moment.

Context allows us to discern into what the object is being immersed.

You cannot have it both ways, saying that to immerse means to submerge in water and also, when it is convenient, claim that it is but an analogy meaning to be ”immersed” in Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

...among a number of other things.

You have already been schooled on this--several times. So please do not try to buffalo your readers every time it is helpful to your argument to choose the particular meaning you prefer at that moment.


You cannot have it both ways, saying that to immerse means to submerge in water and also, when it is convenient, claim that it is but an analogy meaning to be ”immersed” in Christ.

Yes, we can.
The context tells us what a person is being immersed in to. Is the immersion into water as a symbolic reference to the immersion that the Holy Spirit accomplished when He immersed us into Christ Jesus?
Galatians 3 makes it very clear that the Spirit immerses us into the body of Christ. The ceremonial water baptism symbolizes this truth. The difference is that the Holy Spirit's immersion of the believer, into Christ, is a permanent immersion, while the symbolic water baptism is under and out.
Making water baptism into a magical event filled with alchemy and mystery results in the removal of God's grace and a substitution of human works in its stead. It is foolishness to teach salvation by works via a water baptism ceremony.

 

[Albion]

Yes, we can.
The context tells us what a person is being immersed in to. Is the immersion into water as a symbolic reference to the immersion that the Holy Spirit accomplished when He immersed us into Christ Jesus?

No, it is not. BUT let us leave that alone for the moment.

You insisted that baptism must be by submersion and you also and separately insisted that the immersion is just a spiritual reception of the Holy Spirit. Given those two claims, the excuse that says you are talking about both at once--or that the two are compatible with each other--does not work.