Short story by your truly (Holy Spirit Baptism)

[Cassia]

Where are you and me told to lay our hands on others so they can receive the Holy Spirit? Where are we told that the Holy Spirit cannot fill us unless someone lays their hands on us and invokes the Holy Spirit to indwell us?
Paul spoke directly to Timothy regarding a specific event that was specifically for Timothy. Are there living Apostles today who walked with Jesus that do the same with all Christians?
We must let scripture guide us lest we end up worshipping a false god created by our own minds for our own narcissistic edification.

Moving past the elementariness of Hebrews one finds oneself outside of temple rituals.

 

[Andrew]

Where are you and me told to lay our hands on others so they can receive the Holy Spirit? Where are we told that the Holy Spirit cannot fill us unless someone lays their hands on us and invokes the Holy Spirit to indwell us?

I never said that the only way to receive the Holy Spirit was through laying on of hands and God knows I am not one to go around laying hands to administer the Spirit, but I believe it's possible for some local elders (presbyter) as it were 2000 years ago.
There were many churches started off there, I don't live over there do you? Churches grew and spread out along with gifts, maybe until we evangelize the sentinel island the word hasn't spread to the ends of the earth thus the gift to heal the sick and administer is still in full swing today.
Now the church I went to, I didnt see people tossing about like a rag doll, something you must have watched on some prosperity charismatic channel, no it was just a good old fashion laying on of hands and praying over individuals (no cameras) and that's all im talking about. I never said "you must" this and that to "receive the Holy Ghost", please don't involve me with those dogmas because I have nothing to do with them.

 

[psalms 91]

I get it. However, I think you have to recognize the position that non-Charismatic Christians are put in by the folks who are true believers in this sort of thing.

To Charismatics/Pentecostals, and especially those who belong to explicitly Pentecostal churches, we either accept every last instance or claim of there being a reception of the Holy Spirit this way...or else the same identical scorn is going to be forthcoming ("You must not have the Holy Spirit;" "You just aren't willing to believe;" etc. etc. etc.).

So you really think scorn is warrented? I will ask the same as I asked Menno, have you asked the Holy Spirit if it is real or not because you are condemning the work without hearing from Him if not. Many get defensive at this but many times that is because they dont hear from the spirit.

 

[Andrew]

So you really think scorn is warrented? I will ask the same as I asked Menno, have you asked the Holy Spirit if it is real or not because you are condemning the work without hearing from Him if not. Many get defensive at this but many times that is because they dont hear from the spirit.

I would suggest having they witnessed a healing, knew the guy or gale before and how he or she was -be it a prostitute, a junkie, alcoholic etc.. and see the transformation of that person after words, to then ask (if they must) if this was indeed divine or not, I personally never asked that question as my witness and testimony was solid enough.
I don't blame Menno and Albion for questioning what they have seen on TV or in the video clips I provided and I wouldn't expect them to ask God about it knowing that they only saw a simulated animation of photos and sound uploaded to their screen or broadcasted over the airwaves.
It's ashame that one can dismiss the possibility of spiritual healings and outpouring all together just because of the many hoaxers, false prophets and magicians at work creating a smear of the actual workings of The Spirit...
Lets not believe in miracles now because of the activity of false prophets
They just need testimony Psalms 91, I can and have proposed some of my testimony but unless they actually knew me a few years ago and witnessed my transformation and how I am now, we really can't blame them can we?
I was sick and I needed a doctor, then I was healed - A Mark 2:17 moment

 

[Albion]

I would suggest having they witnessed a healing, knew the guy or gale before and how he or she was -be it a prostitute, a junkie, alcoholic etc.. and see the transformation of that person after words, to then ask (if they must) if this was indeed divine or not, I personally never asked that question as my witness and testimony was solid enough.
I don't blame Menno and Albion for questioning what they have seen on TV or in the video clips I provided and I wouldn't expect them to ask God about it knowing that they only saw a simulated animation of photos and sound uploaded to their screen or broadcasted over the airwaves.
It's ashame that one can dismiss the possibility of spiritual healings and outpouring all together just because of the many hoaxers, false prophets and magicians at work creating a smear of the actual workings of The Spirit...
Lets not believe in miracles now because of the activity of false prophets

This is not at all what I explained earlier, DH. In fact, it is just about the opposite of what you and I had several times written that we were agreeing on.

 

[MennoSota]

Moving past the elementariness of Hebrews one finds oneself outside of temple rituals.

"Great Googly-moogly, Indiana Jones."

 

[Andrew]

This is not at all what I explained earlier, DH. In fact, it is just about the opposite of what you and I had several times written that we were agreeing on.

I am addressing Psalms that asking you to ask God if what you see is actual works of the Spirit is not really necessary.
I am suggesting that the only reason to ask is if you personally knew someone who had a life changing experience at the alter or received healing through laying on of hands, you believe in the possibility, Menno doesn't.... that's who my later sarcasm was directed to, anytime I mention anything related to some interaction Menno points to the circus on TV.
I see mockery in the churches and I see it on TV, I am pointed out that this usually turns people off to the possibility (which we agree on?) of laying on of hands healing all together or that they must all be phoney... (Albeit many are)
I threw you both into the post but you were only mentioned because of Psalms suggested but the rest was more so directed to Mennos attitude of 'impossibility' of healings by laying on of hands.

 

[Albion]

I am addressing Psalms that asking you to ask God if what you see is actual works of the Spirit is not really necessary.

Okay

I am suggesting that the only reason to ask is if you pers nally knew someone who had a life changing experience at the alter or received healing through laying on of hands, you believe in the possibility, Menno doesn't.... that's who my later sarcasm was directed to, anytime I mention anything related to some interaction Menno points to the circus on TV.

But is having a life-changing faith experience at the altar a gift of the Holy Spirit per the passage in Corinthians?

I see mockery in the churches and I see it on TV, I am pointed out that this usually turns people off to the possibility (which we agree on?) of laying on of hands healing all together or that they must all be phoney... (Albeit many are)

Well, is that not understandable, considering that the Pentecostal churches absolutely refuse to reject the false claims? It is as though they think that doing so would give some sort of victory to the doubters, and they are not about to allow that.

Look at people like psalms91, for instance.

I threw you both into the post but you were only mentioned because of Psalms suggested but the rest was more so directed to Mennos attitude of 'impossibility' of healings by laying on of hands.

I suppose that I could have taken offense, but that wasn't a big issue. It was more that your post appeared to return to the problem area that I spoke of before
and which you agreed with. That is to say, there ARE false claims, not just magicians and professional hoaxers.

No, the issue is more about sincere people who think they have received some gift of the HS when they have not--and the fact that all the other Pentecostals insist upon joining ranks behind them, denouncing anyone who dares to suggest that not every claim is of a genuine occurrence..

 

[psalms 91]

I would suggest having they witnessed a healing, knew the guy or gale before and how he or she was -be it a prostitute, a junkie, alcoholic etc.. and see the transformation of that person after words, to then ask (if they must) if this was indeed divine or not, I personally never asked that question as my witness and testimony was solid enough.
I don't blame Menno and Albion for questioning what they have seen on TV or in the video clips I provided and I wouldn't expect them to ask God about it knowing that they only saw a simulated animation of photos and sound uploaded to their screen or broadcasted over the airwaves.
It's ashame that one can dismiss the possibility of spiritual healings and outpouring all together just because of the many hoaxers, false prophets and magicians at work creating a smear of the actual workings of The Spirit...
Lets not believe in miracles now because of the activity of false prophets
They just need testimony Psalms 91, I can and have proposed some of my testimony but unless they actually knew me a few years ago and witnessed my transformation and how I am now, we really can't blame them can we?
I was sick and I needed a doctor, then I was healed - A Mark 2:17 moment

Problem I have is that if they can see it touch it experience it then it is not faith is it? Yes I understand that there are fakes and charletans out there but that is no reason to attack the true ones or forbid it but then we get to menno who denies it even exists today. What do you do with that? I shake the dust off and move on as only that is left to do.

 

[psalms 91]

Okay



But is having a life-changing faith experience at the altar a gift of the Holy Spirit per the passage in Corinthians?



Well, is that not understandable, considering that the Pentecostal churches absolutely refuse to reject the false claims? It is as though they think that doing so would give some sort of victory to the doubters, and they are not about to allow that.

Look at people like psalms91, for instance.



I suppose that I could have taken offense, but that wasn't a big issue. It was more that your post appeared to return to the problem area that I spoke of before
and which you agreed with. That is to say, there ARE false claims, not just magicians and professional hoaxers.

No, the issue is more about sincere people who think they have received some gift of the HS when they have not--and the fact that all the other Pentecostals insist upon joining ranks behind them, denouncing anyone who dares to suggest that not every claim is of a genuine occurrence..

I have never said that, I am aware that there are those who fake and use and abuse but I am also aware that there are many real manifestations as well. I am also a transformed inmdividual because of my experiences but that is not the proof you and others seem to want. No I do not condone the fakes but at the same time I do not condemn all either;, The Holy Spirit is alive and well today and I say ask the spirit what is real and what is not because He is the one who can tell you. The real problem isnt with the fakers, it is with those who cannot discern the difference and dont hear from the spirit, it is hard to be led by the spirit if you are deaf to Him.

 

[Cassia]

Okay



But is having a life-changing faith experience at the altar a gift of the Holy Spirit per the passage in Corinthians?



Well, is that not understandable, considering that the Pentecostal churches absolutely refuse to reject the false claims? It is as though they think that doing so would give some sort of victory to the doubters, and they are not about to allow that.

Look at people like psalms91, for instance.



I suppose that I could have taken offense, but that wasn't a big issue. It was more that your post appeared to return to the problem area that I spoke of before
and which you agreed with. That is to say, there ARE false claims, not just magicians and professional hoaxers.

No, the issue is more about sincere people who think they have received some gift of the HS when they have not--and the fact that all the other Pentecostals insist upon joining ranks behind them, denouncing anyone who dares to suggest that not every claim is of a genuine occurrence..

Is it Word of Faith from the the denominations of Pentecostal/Charismatics that is being questioned because I have seen that expound into the manifest destiny theme more prevailiant in contemporary churches.

Word of Faith in it’s more biblical form represents the Holy Spirit connection as seen in Charismatic at the manifestations beyond their historical level. The morality of faith from that word is within the practice. As a citizen of the kingdom the dynamics are the same so it isn’t unfamiliar to some.

 

[Albion]

I have never said that, I am aware that there are those who fake and use and abuse but I am also aware that there are many real manifestations as well.

As I said in my previous post when I challenged DH for skirting the real issue in the way you just did, it is not fakers or tricksters but sincere albeit mistaken people who must be accounted for. It is easy for a Pentecostal Christian to disavow someone who is clearly faking it, but these are not the main part of the problem.

I am also a transformed inmdividual because of my experiences but that is not the proof you and others seem to want.

There are all sorts of reasons for people to become transformed. You could just as easily be converted or transformed by a fake exhibition of some gift as by a real one. All that is needed is for the person to believe it. Other people are going to turn over a new leaf when visiting some great cathedral and feeling the presence of God in such a majestic setting. Others will be moved by something else.

No I do not condone the fakes but at the same I do not condemn all either.

Will you describe for us some instance of you not condoning the claimed reception of the HS, the emotional release, or physical response observed in some other person or reported by him, then?

 

[Andrew]

No, the issue is more about sincere people who think they have received some gift of the HS when they have not--and the fact that all the other Pentecostals insist upon joining ranks behind them, denouncing anyone who dares to suggest that not every claim is of a genuine occurrence..

All I know is that my life changed but I didn't receive a gift nor has anyone else I know, the Holy Spirit is a gift from God none the less, but I don't know of any prophecies or interpretations of this and that...
A friend of mine claimed to have spoken to God and that he said that he would be financially blessed with self employment as a taco vender with a taco van lol or something like that... anywho turns out he is back to his old ways of calling himself 'witchy' and playing in his band where his nick name is "Satan", very sad actually because he was the one that took me to church but he left way before I did.
Another claimed to have seen great visions of Jesus appearing at other churches and his wife claimed to have visions in her dreams, these gifts of visions that they claim of having didn't benefit me any, it must edifying to themselves (?).
Another had the gift of "discerning evil" and I was sick one sermon but he didnt know this and he walked up to me and sad "brother I am sensing a dark presence around you can we pray over you?" I said no its ok I am just sick actually.. that was the last time I went.
The only gift I know of is the Holy Spirit itself which allowed me to start my walk with God, I don't believe you have to keep going back to a church to get it again because it got away... but it did all start with the laying on of hands so as for those hoaxers and false witness bearers that do imitate Jesus and the apostles but actually just push people back and say "he's is slain in the Holy Ghost" or whatever.. Yeah don't believe it all, I haven't experienced that myself but I have heard testimony from those it has happened to.
I respect Psalms faith in Pentecostalism and the way they worship, it just wasnt for me because my local churches theology was terrible and I don't know if they are all the same or not.
My Pastor did one time bring up false miracles and faking of tongues which gave me some hope but that usher who said I had devils on me really did it for me.

 

[Cassia]

As I said in my previous post when I challenged DH for skirting the real issue in the way you just did, it is not fakers or tricksters but sincere albeit mistaken people who must be accounted for. It is easy for a Pentecostal Christian to disavow someone who is clearly faking it, but these are not the main part of the problem.




There are all sorts of reasons for people to become transformed. You could just as easily be converted or transformed by a fake exhibition of some gift as by a real one. All that is needed is for the person to believe it. Other people are going to turn over a new leaf when visiting some great cathedral and feeling the presence of God in such a majestic setting. Others will be moved by something else.



Will you describe for us some instance of you not condoning the claimed reception of the HS, the emotional release, or physical response observed in some other person or reported by him, then?

There is Judgement coming for that for all religions. Sheeeeeeshhhk

 

[Andrew]

Problem I have is that if they can see it touch it experience it then it is not faith is it? Yes I understand that there are fakes and charletans out there but that is no reason to attack the true ones or forbid it but then we get to menno who denies it even exists today. What do you do with that? I shake the dust off and move on as only that is left to do.

I don't agree with Menno who attacks even my experience, I'm not offended but I feel I must defend you because I know it's just as possible for you as it was for me.. like we just kind of 'get it' ya know?
Menno seems to believe that you believe that it's all real and there are no hoaxers :/
There for Menno believes it's impossible to experience a spiritual conversion by the laying on of hands...
You see, when Menno thinks of you he automatically pictures people being tossed around like rag dolls and convulsing on the floor like a mad circus, he most likely gets this idea from watching Charismatic mega churches... my church was fairly small, nobody ever acted like that! Sure we danced and I liked to run with joy and celebration before the sermon started, then we sat and listened and we werent afraid to shout out in joy because we just love hearing the good news of salvation, after the sermon they asked if any one needed healing and they would heal by laying on of hands and the whole church would pray over them, utterances would begin and you can hear the pain in these people and then you hear the relief and you can feel their blessing as you see the cry joys of happiness and smile thanking the Lord Jesus... like I said Psalms, I loved this part of the church but certain people in the church had very strict and bad theologies and also some of the people there really pushed me over the edge by their judging of me.

 

[Andrew]

As I said in my previous post when I challenged DH for skirting the real issue in the way you just did, it is not fakers or tricksters but sincere albeit mistaken people who must be accounted for. It is easy for a Pentecostal Christian to disavow someone who is clearly faking it, but these are not the main part of the problem.




There are all sorts of reasons for people to become transformed. You could just as easily be converted or transformed by a fake exhibition of some gift as by a real one. All that is needed is for the person to believe it. Other people are going to turn over a new leaf when visiting some great cathedral and feeling the presence of God in such a majestic setting. Others will be moved by something else.



Will you describe for us some instance of you not condoning the claimed reception of the HS, the emotional release, or physical response observed in some other person or reported by him, then?

Albion I certainly believe that people can put on a act to profess their "faith" and it starts a domino effect to where people can act in hysteria and it gets really annoying, almost like some of them are trying to catch that first high so to speak.
I almost fell victim to this unrealistic motion myself because I thought I was losing the Spirit if I didn't always feel it's presence. They made it so convincing so when I didn't notice the presence I thought I was losing my faith or something. I had to realise that I am not fooling God, yes the Spirit is in me and no it does not go away, but that runners high feeling is not going to last. Others knew this as well, they like me just stood by and watched as it was hard to focus on praying or worship at times, just kind of a distraction BUT sometimes it was different and I got deep into prayer with others as we asked for blessings over a lost soul, for all I know that individual received a blessing as a non believer and perhaps that person is walking with God today... I dunno.
So I am not skirting around the issue, I accept that people will try to fake it and believe it's something that it's not, they normally don't fool me, I can tell in my heart if it's genuine or not -having been in both shoes, the fakery and the one exception.
I hope this helps answer your question somewhat.

 

[Andrew]

There is a significance to laying on of hands. In the OT one would transfer transgressions/curse to an animal by laying on of hands.
Jesus transfered blessings and it was not limited to just him but also to his followers, from the Apostles down to local elders of a church.
If it saves 1 out of 99 it's well worth it, there are many imitations of people faking a healing only because bystanders are watching, but it's not 'always' the case.

 

[Cassia]

Moving past the elementariness of Hebrews one finds oneself outside of temple rituals.

G’nite ya’ll

 

[MennoSota]

I don't agree with Menno who attacks even my experience, I'm not offended but I feel I must defend you because I know it's just as possible for you as it was for me.. like we just kind of 'get it' ya know?
Menno seems to believe that you believe that it's all real and there are no hoaxers :/
There for Menno believes it's impossible to experience a spiritual conversion by the laying on of hands...
You see, when Menno thinks of you he automatically pictures people being tossed around like rag dolls and convulsing on the floor like a mad circus, he most likely gets this idea from watching Charismatic mega churches... my church was fairly small, nobody ever acted like that! Sure we danced and I liked to run with joy and celebration before the sermon started, then we sat and listened and we werent afraid to shout out in joy because we just love hearing the good news of salvation, after the sermon they asked if any one needed healing and they would heal by laying on of hands and the whole church would pray over them, utterances would begin and you can hear the pain in these people and then you hear the relief and you can feel their blessing as you see the cry joys of happiness and smile thanking the Lord Jesus... like I said Psalms, I loved this part of the church but certain people in the church had very strict and bad theologies and also some of the people there really pushed me over the edge by their judging of me.

Hoff, I have told you that my church anoints those who are sick with oil as James stated. We lay hands on people and pray for them. We beseech God to fill us to overflowing with the Holy Spirit. God graciously works within our church. We just don't make a show of it. We don't badger our congregation or claim they are not filled with the Holy Spirit if they do not babble in unknown speech. We let scripture guide our actions and try not to presume upon God to do something He never promised.

 

[MennoSota]

There is a significance to laying on of hands. In the OT one would transfer transgressions/curse to an animal by laying on of hands.
Jesus transfered blessings and it was not limited to just him but also to his followers, from the Apostles down to local elders of a church.
If it saves 1 out of 99 it's well worth it, there are many imitations of people faking a healing only because bystanders are watching, but it's not 'always' the case.

Paul was happy the gospel was preached, even if it was preached out of wrong motives. I am glad when others preach salvation only through faith in Christ. There motives and theology may be messed up, but they preach Christ. This is a good thing.