Succession

MoreCoffee

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Peter is foundation, not founder, of the whole Church
  • foundation but founded on another foundation, which is Christ Jesus, Our Lord ;
  • foundation of the Evangelic Church alone,
  • foundation subject to succession,
  • foundation of the Church militant not of the Church triumphant,
  • foundation by participation, ministerial not absolute foundation ;
specifically, administrator and not lord, and in no way the foundation of our faith, hope and charity, nor of the efficacy of the Sacraments,

A difference so great as this makes the one (that is Peter) unable, in comparison, to be called a foundation by the side of the other (that is the Lord Jesus Christ), whilst, however, taken by itself, it can be called a foundation, in order to pay proper regard to the Holy Scriptures.

So, although Christ is the Good Shepherd, he gives us shepherds under himself, between those shepherds and the Lord there is so great a difference that he declares himself to be the only shepherd.
 

pinacled

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Peter is foundation, not founder, of the whole Church
  • foundation but founded on another foundation, which is Christ Jesus, Our Lord ;
  • foundation of the Evangelic Church alone,
  • foundation subject to succession,
  • foundation of the Church militant not of the Church triumphant,
  • foundation by participation, ministerial not absolute foundation ;
specifically, administrator and not lord, and in no way the foundation of our faith, hope and charity, nor of the efficacy of the Sacraments,

A difference so great as this makes the one (that is Peter) unable, in comparison, to be called a foundation by the side of the other (that is the Lord Jesus Christ), whilst, however, taken by itself, it can be called a foundation, in order to pay proper regard to the Holy Scriptures.

So, although Christ is the Good Shepherd, he gives us shepherds under himself, between those shepherds and the Lord there is so great a difference that he declares himself to be the only shepherd.
As i was taught in the spirit.
'Truth lies in stone and time is fluid.
 

Josiah

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Peter is foundation, not founder, of the whole Church
  • foundation but founded on another foundation, which is Christ Jesus, Our Lord ;
  • foundation of the Evangelic Church alone,
  • foundation subject to succession,
  • foundation of the Church militant not of the Church triumphant,
  • foundation by participation, ministerial not absolute foundation ;
specifically, administrator and not lord, and in no way the foundation of our faith, hope and charity, nor of the efficacy of the Sacraments,

A difference so great as this makes the one (that is Peter) unable, in comparison, to be called a foundation by the side of the other (that is the Lord Jesus Christ), whilst, however, taken by itself, it can be called a foundation, in order to pay proper regard to the Holy Scriptures.

So, although Christ is the Good Shepherd, he gives us shepherds under himself, between those shepherds and the Lord there is so great a difference that he declares himself to be the only shepherd.


.... baseless (but egotistical) claims.

The FAITH of Peter is foundational ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") but the person of Peter is... well.... just a sinful but forgiven bloat (like the rest of us). His FAITH lifted up Christ - not himself or his denomination, and certainly not some ploy to justify "lording it over others as the Gentiles do."
 

MoreCoffee

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John 10:11 I am the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep.
Ezek 34:23 And I will raise up over them ONE SHEPHERD, who will feed them, my servant David. He himself will feed them, and he will be their shepherd.

Remember ...
Peter is foundation, not founder, of the whole Church
  • foundation but founded on another foundation, which is Christ Jesus, Our Lord ;
  • foundation of the Evangelic Church alone,
  • foundation subject to succession,
  • foundation of the Church militant not of the Church triumphant,
  • foundation by participation, ministerial not absolute foundation ;
specifically, administrator and not lord, and in no way the foundation of our faith, hope and charity, nor of the efficacy of the Sacraments,

A difference so great as this makes the one (that is Peter) unable, in comparison, to be called a foundation by the side of the other (that is the Lord Jesus Christ), whilst, however, taken by itself, it can be called a foundation, in order to pay proper regard to the Holy Scriptures.

So, although Christ is the Good Shepherd, he gives us shepherds under himself, between those shepherds and the Lord there is so great a difference that he declares himself to be the only shepherd.

At the same time it is not good reasoning to say all the Apostles in general are called foundations of the Church, therefore Saint Peter is only such in the same way as the others are.

On the contrary, as Our Lord has said in particular, and in particular terms, to Saint Peter, what is afterwards said in general of the others, we must conclude that there is in Saint Peter some particular property of foundation, and that he in particular has been what the whole college has been together.

The whole Church has been founded on all the Apostles, and the whole on Saint Peter in particular; it is then Saint Peter who is its foundation taken by himself, which the others are not. For to whom has it ever been said Thou art Peter, &c.? It would be to violate the Scripture to say that all the Apostles in general have not been foundations of the Church. It would also be to violate the Scripture to deny that Saint Peter was so in particular. It is necessary that the general word should produce its general effect, and the particular its particular, in order that nothing may remain useless and without mystery out of Scriptures so mysterious. We have only to see - for what general reason all the Apostles are called foundations of the Church: namely, because it is they who by their preaching have planted the faith and the Christian doctrine ; in which if we are to give some prerogative to any one of the Apostles it will be to that one who said: I have laboured more abundantly than all they.' (1 Cor. 15:10)
 
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MoreCoffee

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And it is in this sense that is meant the passage of the Apocalypse. For the twelve Apostles are called foundations of the heavenly Jerusalem, because they were the first who converted the world to the Christian religion which was as it were to lay the foundations of the glory of men, and the seeds of their happy immortality. But the passage of Saint Paul seems to be understood not so much of the person of the Apostles as of their doctrine. For it is not said that we are built upon the Apostles, but upon the foundation of the Apostles - that is, upon the doctrine which they have announced. This is easy to see, because it is not only said that we are upon the foundation of the Apostles, but also of the Prophets, and we know well that the Prophets have not otherwise been foundations of the Evangelical Church than by their doctrine. And in this matter all the Apostles seem to stand on a level, unless Saint John and Saint Paul go first for the excellence of their theology. It is then in this sense that all the Apostles are foundations of the Church; but in authority and government Saint Peter precedes all the others as much as the head surpasses the members; for he has been appointed ordinary pastor and supreme head of the Church, the others have been delegated pastors entrusted with as full power and authority over all the rest of the Church as Saint Peter, except that Saint Peter was the head of them all and their pastor as of all Christendom. Thus they were foundations of the Church equally with him as to the conversion of souls and as to doctrine; but as to the authority of governing, they were so unequally, as Saint Peter was the ordinary head not only of the rest of the whole Church but of the Apostles also. For Our Lord had built on him the whole of his Church, of which they were not only parts but the principal and noble parts. "Although the strength of the Church," says Saint Jerome (ad Jovin. I. 27), "is equally established on all the Apostles, yet amongst the twelve one is chosen that a head being appointed occasion of schism may be taken away." "There are, indeed," says Saint Bernard to his Eugenius (de Consid. ii. 8), and we can say as much of Saint Peter for the same reason, "there are others who are custodians and pastors of flocks, but thou hast inherited a name as much the more glorious as it is more special."
 

Josiah

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Ezekiel 34:23 And I will raise up over them ONE SHEPHERD, who will feed them, my servant David. He himself will feed them, and he will be their shepherd.

John 10:11 I am the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep.


Yup.... Jesus.


Not 266 different RC Denomination bishops in Rome (or Avignon or both )
 

MoreCoffee

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Our adversaries are so angry at our proposing to them the chair of Saint Peter as a holy touchstone by which we may test the meanings, imaginations and fancies they put into the Scriptures, that they overthrow heaven and earth to wrest out of our hands the express words of Our Lord, by which, having said to Saint Peter that he would build his Church upon him, in order that we might know more particularly what he meant he continues in these words: And to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. One could not speak more plainly. He has said: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar jona, because flesh and blood, &c. And I say to thee that thou art Peter, . . . and to thee will I give, & c. This to thee refers to that very person to whom he had said: And I say to thee ; it is then to Saint Peter. But the ministers try as hard as they can to disturb the clear fountain of the Gospel, so that Saint Peter may not be able to find his keys therein, and that we may turn disgusted from the water of the holy obedience which we owe to the vicar of Our Lord.

And therefore they have bethought them of saying that Saint Peter had received this promise of Our Lord in the name of the whole Church, without having received any particular privilege in his own person. But if this is not violating Scripture, never did man violate it. For was it not to Saint Peter that he was speaking? and how could he better express his intention than by saying: And I say to thee. . .. I will give to thee? Put with this his having just spoken of the Church, and said: The gates of hell shall not prevail against it, which would have prevented him from saying: And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom, if he had wished to give hem to the whole Church immediately. For he does not say to it, but, to thee, will I give. If it is allowed thus to go surmising over clear words, there will be nothing in the Scripture which cannot be twisted into any meaning whatever; though I do not deny that Saint Peter in this place was speaking in his own name and in that of the whole Church, not indeed as delegated by the Church or by the disciples (for we have not the shadow of a sign of this commission in the Scripture, and the revelation on which he founds his confession had been made to himself alone-unless the whole college of Apostles was named Simon Bar jona), but as mouthpiece, prince and head of the Church and of the others, according to Saint Chrysostom and Saint Cyril on this place, and " on account of the primacy (Ult. In Joan.) of his Apostolate," as Saint Augustine says. It was then the whole Church that spoke in the person of Saint Peter as in the person of its head, and not Saint Peter that spoke in the person of the Church. For the body speaks only in its head, and the head speaks in itself not in its body; and although Saint Peter was not as yet head and prince of the Church, which office was only conferred on him after the resurrection of the Master, it was enough that he was already chosen out for it and had a pledge of it. As also the other Apostles had not as yet the Apostolic power, travelling over all that blessed country rather as scholars with their tutor to learn the profound lessons which afterwards they taught to others than as Apostles or Envoys, which they afterwards were throughout the whole world, when their sound went forth into all the earth (Ps. xviii. 5.). Neither do I deny that the rest of the prelates of the Church have a share in the use of the keys; and as for the Apostles I own that they have every authority here. I say only that the giving of the keys is here promised principally to Saint Peter, and for the benefit of the Church. For although it is he who has received them, still it is not for his private advantage but for that of the Church. The control of the keys is promised to Saint Peter in particular, and principally, then afterwards to the Church; but it is promised principally for the general good of the Church, then afterwards for that of Saint Peter; as is the case with all public charges.

But, one will ask me, what difference is there between the promise which Our Lord here makes to Saint Peter to give him the keys, and that which He made to the Apostles afterwards? For in truth it seems to have been but the same, because Our Lord explaining what he meant by the keys said: And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose, &c- which is just what he said to the Apostles in general: Whatsoever you shall bind, &c (Matt. 18:18). If then he promises to all in general what he promises to Peter in particular, there will be no ground for saying that Saint Peter is greater than one of the others by this promise.

I answer that in the promise and in the execution of the promise Our Lord has always preferred Saint Peter by expressions which oblige us to believe that he has been made head of the Church. And as to the promise, I confess that by these words: And whatsoever thou shalt loose, Our Lord has promised no more to Saint Peter than he did to the others afterwards Whatsoever you shall bind, &c. For the words are the same in substance and in meaning in the two passages. I admit also that by these words: And whatsoever thou shalt loose, said to Saint Peter, he explains the preceding: And I will give to thee the keys, but I deny that it is the same thing to promise the keys and to say: Whatsoever thou shalt loose. Let us then see what it is to promise the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And who knows not that when a master, going away from his house, leaves the keys with some one, what he does is to leave him the charge and governance thereof. When princes make their entrance into cities, the keys are presented to them as an acknowledgment of their sovereign authority.

It is then the supreme authority which Our Lord here promises to Saint Peter; and in fact when the Scripture elsewhere wishes to speak of a sovereign authority it has used similar terms. In the Apocalypse (Revelation 1:17, 18) when Our Lord wishes to make himself known to his servant, he says to him: I am the first and the last and alive and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell. What does he mean by the keys of death and of hell, except the supreme power over the one and the other? And there also where it is said These things saith the Holy one and the True one, who hath the key of David: he that openeth and no man shutteth, shutteth and no man openeth (Revelation 3:7) , what can we understand but the supreme authority of the Church? And what else is meant by what the Angel said to Our Lady (Luke 1:32): The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever?-the Holy Spirit making us know the kingship of our Lord, now by the seat or throne, now by the keys. But is the commandment which in Isaiah (Isaiah 22) is given to Eliacim which is parallel in every particular with that which Our Lord gives to Saint Peter. In it there is described the deposition of a sovereign-priest and governor of the Temple: Thus saith the Lord God of hosts: go get thee into him that dwelleth in the tabernacle, to Sobna who is over the temple; and thou shalt say to him what dost thou here? And further on: I will depose thee. See there the de position of one, and now the institution of the other. And it. shall come to pass in that day that I will call my servant Eliacim the son of Helcias, and I will, clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand : and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda. And I will lay the key of the house David upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut: and he shall shut and none shall open.

Could anything fit better than these two Scriptures? For: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, because flesh and blood have not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven- is it not at least equivalent to: I will call my servant Eliacim the son of Helcias? And I say to thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell, &c. -does this not signify the same as: I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand, and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Juda? And what else is it to be the foundation or foundationstone of a family than to be there as father, to have the superintendence, to be governor there? And if one has had this assurance: I will lay the key of the house of David on his shoulder, the other has had no less, who had the promise: And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And if when he has opened no one shall shut, when he has shut no one shall open; so, when the other shall have loosened no one shall bind, when he shall have bound no one shall loosen. The one is Eliacim son of Helcias, the other, Simon the son of Jonas; the one is clothed with the pontifical robe, the other with heavenly revelation; the one has power in his hand, the other is a strong rock; the one is as father in Jerusalem, the other is as foundation in the Church; the one has the keys of the kingdom of David, the other those of the Church of the Gospel; when one shuts nobody opens, when one binds nobody looses; when one opens no one shuts, when one loosens nobody binds. What further remains to be said than that if ever Eliacim son of Helcias was head of the Mosaic Temple, Simon son of Jonas was the same of the Gospel Church? Eliacim represented Our Lord as figure, Saint Peter represents him as lieutenant; Eliacim represented him in the Mosaic Church, and Saint Peter in the Christian Church. Such is what is meant by this promise of giving the keys to Saint Peter, a promise which was never made to the other Apostles.
 

RichWh1

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Peter is foundation, not founder, of the whole Church
  • foundation but founded on another foundation, which is Christ Jesus, Our Lord ;
  • foundation of the Evangelic Church alone,
  • foundation subject to succession,
  • foundation of the Church militant not of the Church triumphant,
  • foundation by participation, ministerial not absolute foundation ;
specifically, administrator and not lord, and in no way the foundation of our faith, hope and charity, nor of the efficacy of the Sacraments,

A difference so great as this makes the one (that is Peter) unable, in comparison, to be called a foundation by the side of the other (that is the Lord Jesus Christ), whilst, however, taken by itself, it can be called a foundation, in order to pay proper regard to the Holy Scriptures.

So, although Christ is the Good Shepherd, he gives us shepherds under himself, between those shepherds and the Lord there is so great a difference that he declares himself to be the only shepherd.
The church was founded upon the apostles and prophets not just one apostle. Matthew 16 doesn't make Peter " the Rock" since both Paul and Peter called Jesus the Rock.


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MoreCoffee

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The church was founded upon the apostles and prophets not just one apostle. Matthew 16 doesn't make Peter " the Rock" since both Paul and Peter called Jesus the Rock.


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Nevertheless Jesus said to Simeon "You Peter (Rock)". Peter is Rock and upon "this" rock Christ builds his Church. There's room for more than one rock in the Church.
 

RichWh1

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Who is this Rock?

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RichWh1

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Jesus didn't say upon you - He said upon this Rock.

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MennoSota

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Nevertheless Jesus said to Simeon "You Peter (Rock)". Peter is Rock and upon "this" rock Christ builds his Church. There's room for more than one rock in the Church.
"Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’),*and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell*will not conquer it."
Peter is the little rock. Jesus is the ROCK that the church is built upon.
All the elect are additional little rocks that are added to build upon Christ Jesus, the ROCK of ages.
It is sad that Peter gets worshipped as something greater than what he is. Like all of us, Peter was a corrupt human whom God graciously chose to save and use. No more, no less.
 

psalms 91

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Josiah

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Who is this Rock?


WHAT is the rock?

IF Jesus meant the man "Peter" He would have said, "Upon you...."
He didn't.
He said "upon this rock."
What "rock?" The FAITH he just confessed.

The community of believers is not built on a dead man, whose rotted bones lie in a grave somewhere.
It is built on the living CHRIST ... and the "living stones" are those with the divine gift of FAITH in this Christ, the Son of the living God.
 

Albion

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The fact remains, however, that no matter how we interpret the "rock", the idea that it commissions several hundred men--coming in a line after Peter--to be the rulers of Christ's church on Earth is entirely fanciful and without scriptural warrant OR, for that matter, its much ballyhooed alternative, "Tradition."
 

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The fact remains, however, that no matter how we interpret the "rock", the idea that it commissions several hundred men--coming in a line after Peter--to be the rulers of Christ's church on Earth is entirely fanciful and without scriptural warrant OR, for that matter, its much ballyhooed alternative, "Tradition."

The way it worked out was that the Disciples drew lots as to where they would go to evangellize...
Had there been petrine supremacy, Peter would have assigned the other 11 to their posts...
Humility being the greatest virtue, Peter could not have been so named to supremacy...
Which is why the Chair of Peter in Rome had Primacy of Honor within, but not supremacy over, the Ekklesia...

That is the fundamental issue between the Latins and the East...


Arsenios
 

Pedrito

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==============================================================================================

Josiah (Post #16):
...The community of believers is not built on a dead man, whose rotted bones lie in a grave somewhere...

And here was I thinking that I was being taught that Peter (along with other dead believers) was alive and well in Heaven, with God and with Him who sits at God’s right hand. (Acts 2:34; Colossians 1:3)

Does Josiah now give credence to (what is conveniently labelled) Annihilationism?

Or does he (like I’ve seen done elsewhere in Christendom) simply choose to use different perspectives, as convenient, when convenient, (and even conflicting perspectives,) to support particular points being argued at particular times?

I suspect the latter. Does that possibility appear wholesome?


==============================================================================================
 

Albion

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Do we really want to go through this silly exercise (again!) in selectively picking apart an ordinary expression in order to find fault? If Pedrito wants to support the idea of a line of Popes being Christ’s intention for his church, let Pedrito just say it.

When a poster refers to some saint having died, we all know that it means his body has ceased to breathe, his heart has stopped, and he's been laid in the grave; it is not a comment on the nature of the afterlife.
:rolleyes:
 
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