The problem with "Christian" music today

[psalms 91]

OK. That's a word that some churches use a lot while others just do not. Nevertheless, the clarification is helpful.

But on the other hand, it does mean that you are the object of the hymns--which idea was suggested earlier here--while the traditional hymns that have been criticized as boring, etc. are hymns in praise of God or of fidelity to him or are the worshippers' affirmation of Bible truths. To me, THIS is not something that is stale, trivial, boring, or anything of the sort.

I agree and it is always about God whether it be praise or worship. There are times where you just want to sing and praise and other times where you just hit the carpet in prayer a nd reverance. It is always about God

 

[MoreCoffee]

https://youtu.be/HB7gPIIQT7Y

I have friend who attends a local Pentecostal church that sings songs like the ones being critiqued (condemned as rubbish really) in the video. I visited their new building on a Sunday back in 2007 because they asked me to. I haven't set foot in it again. Not because the people are bad or anything like that; quite the contrary many are good decent people whose faith in God is genuine. I just could not bear the LOUD overly amplified music that (dare it be said) drowned out the songs and I also really disliked the songs (choruses they call them). Oh, and the sermon was an extended appeal for more money, a "tithe" being required for the church and another for the poor and another for something that I do not remember.

The video clip is not far from being completely accurate.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet, there are many of us including me today who are turned off by how boring and slow the traditional services and music are. The church I attend now has a traditional service. Less than half our members go to it. I think it would also be incorrect to say that all of the songs don't mention Jesus or have some good theology in them. I won't sit through a traditional service. it puts me to sleep and bores me

This is one of my favorites right now. You'll notice he does mention Jesus by name.

https://youtu.be/u-1fwZtKJSM

I attend a parish that uses almost nothing but "traditional" liturgical music and we have (according to last week's count) 897 regular attendees. We sing things like

Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God of hosts.
Heaven and Earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

It recalls the words that Jesus spoke:

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

The faithful see Jesus every mass time. They say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord and he fulfils his promise. It takes faith to see but he does come.

 

[Andrew]

I have friend who attends a local Pentecostal church that sings songs like the ones being critiqued (condemned as rubbish really) in the video. I visited their new building on a Sunday back in 2007 because they asked me to. I haven't set foot in it again. Not because the people are bad or anything like that; quite the contrary many are good decent people whose faith in God is genuine. I just could not bear the LOUD overly amplified music that (dare it be said) drowned out the songs and I also really disliked the songs (choruses they call them). Oh, and the sermon was an extended appeal for more money, a "tithe" being required for the church and another for the poor and another for something that I do not remember.

The video clip is not far from being completely accurate.

It's embarrassing to invite a guest to a church and the first sermon they receive is about tithing
I brought a friend to the pentecostal church and the first preacher was talking about a brotherhood, and he said he said that he was in one, where they called themselves the brotherhood because they wore a hood!!! (When he says this he put his palm over his face) WHAT DO YOU THINK HE WAS REFERRING TOO? Mind you this is older white man....

... turns out he was talking about when he was younger and worked in welding, him and his coworkers called themselves the brother hood...
Needless to say it was an embarrassment and my friend (hispanic) looked frightened at first :/

But you are correct, they have genuine faith I believe that, but a bit fanatical IMO.
The worship was great tho because it reminded me of a southern baptist gospel church which was "fun" and the lady singing could really get down, but it was loud as heck and I never learned the lyrics.
Towards the end of the sermon they would get real emotional and steer it with the music and everyone starts crying... I personally can't switch emotions so quickly and I felt left out.
I don't go to the church but I subscribe to their youtube uploads and I do often watch the sermon because they are driven by the Spirit, if it's a guest tho I tend not to watch them because sometimes they say some non biblical off the wall things that I never agree with.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, the purpose of the service is not to entertain us or others.....

IMO, what should excite us is the Gospel, the message - not the beat and tempo of music....

IMO, while pure "praise" certainly has it's appropriate place in music and worship (several of the Psalms come to mind), music should typically convey Law and Gospel.... the Holy Spirit uses the WORD. If the Word is absent, well....

IMO, no "style" of music is void of bad lyrics! I'm SURE we could come up with a list of "traditional" hymns with "lyrics" that are bad to non-existent.... and the same for "contemporary" ones. And outstanding examples of both, too.

IMO, the opening video (WHILE SATIRE!!!!!) has a valid point: too much of this "contemporary" stuff is just fluff (and not all of it is even Christian fluff, lol). "Light" would be giving it too much credit. Often quite void of Law or Gospel. I'm concerned about the trend in much of Western Christianity away from Truth and to emotions, away from teaching and to relativism and feeling, away from being God centered to being self-centered. I see it in sermons.... I see it in worship.... I see it in songs. And I think there's something fundamentally WRONG with the whole philosophy that the church should be as much like the world as possible. If people leave worship and say, "Wow, that's just like MTV" "That reflects the world!" Well....

I can "excuse" a TUNE* that's bad..... I can't excuse lyrics that are bad.



My half cent.



- Josiah





* MOST hymns can actually be sung to many different tunes.... good worship planners make use of that.

 

[Andrew]

* MOST hymns can actually be sung to many different tunes.... good worship planners make use of that.

Like mumble rap? That would get this generations attention lol
I get what you are saying I think.
Take a great well respected hymn or even a few versus of plasms, add music to it and a fair vocal melody, anything's possible... Remember Schoolhouse Rock? Great method

 

[Albion]

I don't go to the church but I subscribe to their youtube uploads and I do often watch the sermon because they are driven by the Spirit, if it's a guest tho I tend not to watch them because sometimes they say some non biblical off the wall things that I never agree with.

Forgive me for asking, but how would anyone know that a congregation is "driven by the Spirit?" Surely, the fact that the members become glassy-eyed, fall down, wave their arms, and start mouthing a series of meaningless sounds....does not necessarily mean that they are ''driven by the Spirit'' rather than something else.

 

[Andrew]

Forgive me for asking, but how would anyone know that a congregation is "driven by the Spirit?" Surely, the fact that the members become glassy-eyed, fall down, wave their arms, and start mouthing a series of meaningless sounds....does not necessarily mean that they are ''driven by the Spirit'' rather than something else.

Because I know them (local pastor and preachers) personally and I can tell by their fruits... the members were never glassy eyed, a few may wave their arms, I saw one lady lay down one time... you are definitely not referring to my local church
I see the same holiness in the majority of Catholic people, I just happen to not identify with most Christian churches theologies and dogmas.
Stereotype inside the church is discouraged (we will know them by their fruits) but if any preach under a separate Gospel other than what the Apostles preached, then they are accursed.
Like Mormonism and Islam as well as many false prophets *cough Benny Hinn*
I see that we all have one thing in common here at CH.

 

[Albion]

Because I know them (local pastor and preachers) personally and I can tell by their fruits... the members were never glassy eyed, a few may wave their arms, I saw one lady lay down one time... you are definitely not referring to my local church

But what I outlined does describe the goings-on in many Pentecostal congregations, if not every last one of them.

And yet, all of them make the same claim about the Holy Spirit coming upon them and making them act like that. But how would anyone know if this is the work of the Holy Spirit or something else? Seriously.

 

[Andrew]

But what I outlined does describe the goings-on in many Pentecostal congregations, if not every last one of them.

And yet, all of them make the same claim about the Holy Spirit coming upon them and making them act like that. But how would anyone know if this is the work of the Holy Spirit or something else? Seriously.

I wouldn't believe it for a minute. I have to know them to tell by their fruits.
Mega churches or any church that hits mainstream media airwaves I simply can't identify with, there are people who try and get the best angles and there is sound editing plus focusing on certain individuals... that's not a church experience.
I left that church btw, I don't agree with Pentecostalism for certain reasons, the local Pastor refrains from discussing much of Pentecostal theology and so do his preachers.
It's the dogmatic teachings of guest speakers who want to sell books that tie local churches to some crazy dogma.
That's the thing tho, we are all slapped with a label and it's getting very tough for local churches to distinguish themselves so we settle on a denomination.

 

[pinacled]

I wouldn't believe it for a minute. I have to know them to tell by their fruits.
Mega churches or any church that hits mainstream media airwaves I simply can't identify with, there are people who try and get the best angles and there is sound editing plus focusing on certain individuals... that's not a church experience.
I left that church btw, I don't agree with Pentecostalism for certain reasons, the local Pastor refrains from discussing much of Pentecostal theology and so do his preachers.
It's the dogmatic teachings of guest speakers who want to sell books that tie local churches to some crazy dogma.
That's the thing tho, we are all slapped with a label and it's getting very tough for local churches to distinguish themselves so we settle on a denomination.

do you want to learn about tithing?

In the spirit of kowledge and understanding there is a place to store treasure.

shh.
don't talk about milk and honey.

be very quiet. And you might find silver and gold.

o, and the acatia trees are enormous.
there's no way The Lord would give us those.

 

[Andrew]

do you want to learn about tithing?

In the spirit of kowledge and understanding there is a place to store treasure.

shh.
don't talk about milk and honey.

be very quiet. And you might find silver and gold.

o, and the acatia trees are enormous.
there's no way The Lord would give us those.

Tithing is one of the reasons too... A big reason.
Wealth salvation just cuts the chord short for me.
Recently here at the local Catholic church they have been telling my parents to hook up their bank account to theirs and drop in 10% automatically. My parents both recently retired as my mom was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer last month, they need every penny they got. I asked last week what they learned from Church that day and all they could say was "he was teaching us about automatic tithing"

 

[Albion]

It's no wonder the church is losing members at a record pace, huh?.

 

[Andrew]

It's no wonder the church is losing members at a record pace, huh?.

The Word foretells

 

[Albion]

I wouldn't believe it for a minute. I have to know them to tell by their fruits.

Ah! I am glad to read that.

Mega churches or any church that hits mainstream media airwaves I simply can't identify with, there are people who try and get the best angles and there is sound editing plus focusing on certain individuals... that's not a church experience.
I left that church btw, I don't agree with Pentecostalism for certain reasons, the local Pastor refrains from discussing much of Pentecostal theology and so do his preachers.r
It's the dogmatic teachings of guest speakers who want to sell books that tie local churches to some crazy dogma.
That's the thing tho, we are all slapped with a label and it's getting very tough for local churches to distinguish themselves so we settle on a denomination.

None of this has much of anything to do with the ecstatic acting-out stuff being called evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit, though. (?)

 

[Andrew]

None of this has much of anything to do with the ecstatic acting-out stuff being called evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit, though. (?)

They are silly IMO

Truth is I was temporarily acting somewhat the same way so I don't label it short of anything but the Holy Spirit.
I certainly believe that even you Albion could one day have an experience that was so self humiliating that other people saw you as 'drunk' when you were simply hit with the Holy Ghost, but if you were to continue on in this manner for others to witness... well then you are just putting on a show now aren't you?

 

[Albion]

They are silly IMO

Truth is I was temporarily acting somewhat the same way so I don't label it short of anything but the Holy Spirit.
I certainly believe that even you Albion could one day have an experience that was so self humiliating that other people saw you as 'drunk' when you were simply hit with the Holy Ghost, but if you were to continue on in this manner for others to witness... well then you are just putting on a show now aren't you?

I don't believe that the Holy Ghost operates that way. The presumption, remember, is not that we are overcome with joy at the presence of the Holy Ghost--which would be reasonable enough--but rather that the Holy Ghost makes people act like fools for no purpose. And that is aside from the claims made by many Pentecostal churches and pastors that unless you do, you are not a real Christian, etc.

So, for what its worth, that is how I see it. That, however, does not rule out the Holy Ghost granting some people, from time to time, certain spiritual gifts. But that is quite different from the orchestrated, group displays that we were talking about.

 

[Andrew]

I don't believe that the Holy Ghost operates that way. The presumption, remember, is not that we are overcome with joy at the presence of the Holy Ghost--which would be reasonable enough--but rather that the Holy Ghost makes people act like fools for no purpose. And that is aside from the claims made by many Pentecostal churches and pastors that unless you do, you are not a real Christian, etc.

So, for what its worth, that is how I see it.

I believe that God can work in mysterious ways, probably not to a whole congregation but for a few exceptions, myself being an example.
I am sure there a few good handfuls of exceptional Catholics that have been hit with some supernatural signs of the Holy Spirit, my grandparents being an example.
But never the whole congregation. Don't you Lutherans have some exceptional moments of miraculous happenings or healings that cannot be explained because people will call you insane?
Yes Pentecostals are full of disillusionment and cringe worthy fanatical hysteria, but if one lost sheep may be found there in, its all the worth. Go to a small local Pentecostal and you will see it's not all that crazy, no one picks up snakes or interprets tongues, a few wave their hands, someone might shout, and someone may fall to their knees and fall on their face to pray... you can judge them, but I don't... I do always feel an overwhelming since of love in that church, such I have never felt in any other congregation.
IMO

 

[psalms 91]

Forgive me for asking, but how would anyone know that a congregation is "driven by the Spirit?" Surely, the fact that the members become glassy-eyed, fall down, wave their arms, and start mouthing a series of meaningless sounds....does not necessarily mean that they are ''driven by the Spirit'' rather than something else.

I wonder if therse attacks on Pentecostals is driven by something else?

 

[psalms 91]

I wouldn't believe it for a minute. I have to know them to tell by their fruits.
Mega churches or any church that hits mainstream media airwaves I simply can't identify with, there are people who try and get the best angles and there is sound editing plus focusing on certain individuals... that's not a church experience.
I left that church btw, I don't agree with Pentecostalism for certain reasons, the local Pastor refrains from discussing much of Pentecostal theology and so do his preachers.
It's the dogmatic teachings of guest speakers who want to sell books that tie local churches to some crazy dogma.
That's the thing tho, we are all slapped with a label and it's getting very tough for local churches to distinguish themselves so we settle on a denomination.

Guess you would have to have the spirit in you and discern what is of God and what isnt.