The problem with "Christian" music today

[Albion]

A song that paints a rose-colored picture of a really rather grim reality dilutes the very nature of what Jesus was about. Perhaps many don't like to think of the king of kings being born amidst farm animals and all the unpleasantness that surrounds being in a working barn but to whitewash the nature of Christ's birth is in many ways to dilute what his entire mission was about. He was the lowest of the low in just about every respect - he said those who wish to be great must be the servant of all and every single aspect of his life, including his very birth, was consistent with that.

I wouldn't tell someone not to sing a song they liked, whatever the nature of the song. It just seems a shame when songs get ingrained in tradition to a point that something unpleasant becomes romanticised and we allow a picture to be painted that suggests Jesus was born in a barn that was presented just as it would be if a head of state were visiting.

The fact is, though, that the lyrics to Silent Night do not romanticize the stable or the animals or much of anything visual. Almost the whole of the wording refers to the wonder of the Savior being born, and there is nothing that suggests the event was a gala affair..

 

[MennoSota]

So whats the problem? If it brings people to a holy place within then it is annointed and as far as how and where Jesus came, like everything else concerning Him it was by Gods plan so while I agree that a stable is often what you say there is no harm in a song that ignores all that. I know in secular music we dont bring in the unpleasant either

What do you even mean by "a holy place within?"
How do you measure that? Do you rely solely upon feelings? It seems terribly subjective to the individual.

 

[Andrew]

O little town of Bethlehem
How still we see thee lie
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep
The silent stars go by
Yet in thy dark streets shineth
The everlasting Light
The hopes and fears of all the years
Are met in thee tonight

For Christ is born of Mary
And gathered all above
While mortals sleep, the angels keep
Their watch of wondering love
O morning stars together
Proclaim the holy birth
And praises sing to God the King
And Peace to men on earth

How silently, how silently
The wondrous gift is given
So God imparts to human hearts
The blessings of His heaven
No ear may hear His coming
But in this world of sin
Where meek souls will receive him still
The dear Christ enters in

O holy Child of Bethlehem
Descend to us, we pray
Cast out our sin and enter in
Be born to us today
We hear the Christmas angels
The great glad tidings tell
O come to us, abide with us
Our Lord Emmanuel
O come to us, abide with us
Our Lord Emmanuel

 

[psalms 91]

What do you even mean by "a holy place within?"
How do you measure that? Do you rely solely upon feelings? It seems terribly subjective to the individual.

Maybe that is because it is subjective to each of us because we have an individual walk with God that is personal between us and God

 

[MennoSota]

Maybe that is because it is subjective to each of us because we have an individual walk with God that is personal between us and God

Explain this. How do you know you aren't just being emotional and your relationship isn't healthy?

 

[psalms 91]

Explain this. How do you know you aren't just being emotional and your relationship isn't healthy?

How do you know I am? You see,noone should judge the other in matters of faith as only God knows and He can take care of whatever is wrong, He doesnt need our help in that.

 

[tango]

Maybe that is because it is subjective to each of us because we have an individual walk with God that is personal between us and God

But this means that whether something is anointed or not is subjective. If it makes someone feel good it's anointed. So the concept of being anointed is immediately reduced to whether it makes someone feel good. I suspect God's anointing on something is more objective than that.

 

[tango]

It is more than a feeling but I have a feeling either you know that or else I am wasting my time, that song is reverant and is annointed. You can believe whatever you choose but that song is not secular and is very much in keeping with the idea of Jesus birth. You really want to get into a deiscussion then prove Jesus was born on Dec 25 or evenm in that month. I believe He was conceived around that time and was born around the feast of trumpets.

So you're back to merely stating an opinion and refusing to back it with anything, huh? Is the best you can come up with during a discussion about whether something is anointed really little more than "believe what you want but I'm right"?

 

[tango]

The fact is, though, that the lyrics to Silent Night do not romanticize the stable or the animals or much of anything visual. Almost the whole of the wording refers to the wonder of the Savior being born, and there is nothing that suggests the event was a gala affair..

Well "Silent night, holy night, all is calm, all is bright" suggests a night that is, well, silent and calm. I wonder whether those opening words accurately describe a night with a newborn infant in a barn full of farm animals.

Don't get me wrong, it paints a very nice picture. I quite like the song at Christmas time. I just wouldn't say it paints a very accurate picture.

 

[psalms 91]

So you're back to merely stating an opinion and refusing to back it with anything, huh? Is the best you can come up with during a discussion about whether something is anointed really little more than "believe what you want but I'm right"?

Personally you can believe whatever you want, I know the annointing when it is present. If you want to argue and debate that then you will have to find someone else, I do not like circular arguments that noone can win and page after page of what you are saying. No, I know it and that is enough for me. How would you like it quantified? You know as well as I do that it cant be, either you know it in the spirit or you dont simple as that and as complicated as you care to make it

 

[MennoSota]

How do you know I am? You see,noone should judge the other in matters of faith as only God knows and He can take care of whatever is wrong, He doesnt need our help in that.

I'm trying to clarify. You are avoiding and acting like we work with God as though we were Lone Rangers.
What measurable information can you point to to show people are more in tune with the Spirit of God when the song provides no theological teaching at all?

 

[MennoSota]

Personally you can believe whatever you want, I know the annointing when it is present. If you want to argue and debate that then you will have to find someone else, I do not like circular arguments that noone can win and page after page of what you are saying. No, I know it and that is enough for me. How would you like it quantified? You know as well as I do that it cant be, either you know it in the spirit or you dont simple as that and as complicated as you care to make it

Joseph Smith knew it as well, Ps91. Claiming it by emotional tether does not make it so. There must be some biblical evidence you can supply. Isn't there? All through the New Yestament, start with Acts 2, or drawing lots to replace Judas. Axts 10 when the gentiles came in and Cornelius's family was savwed. That is a start but if they dont know the annointing then there is no scriptuire or words that can make them know

 

[psalms 91]

Joseph Smith knew it as well, Ps91. Claiming it by emotional tether does not make it so. There must be some biblical evidence you can supply. Isn't there? All through the New Testament, start with Acts 2, or drawing lots to replace Judas. Axts 10 when the gentiles came in and Cornelius's family was saved. That is a start but if they dont know the annointing then there is no scriptuire or words that can make them know

All through the New Testament, lets start with Acts 2 and then move on to wherre Steven was stoned, then to Acts 10 where Cornelius;s family was saved. As I said all through the New Testament but if they dont know and havent experienced it then they will never be convinced, my last post on this as I am done, I only replied because you made a plea for scripture, ones that I am sure you and everyone else knows

 

[tango]

Personally you can believe whatever you want, I know the annointing when it is present. If you want to argue and debate that then you will have to find someone else, I do not like circular arguments that noone can win and page after page of what you are saying. No, I know it and that is enough for me. How would you like it quantified? You know as well as I do that it cant be, either you know it in the spirit or you dont simple as that and as complicated as you care to make it

Still back to the same stuff I see. If you know it when you see it and are unwilling to even attempt to use anything objective to explain what you are saying, why do you even bother to say anything at all? Seriously - all you've got here is "I know it's anointed and you might disagree but I'm right". There's no point discussing at all.

You say you don't like circular arguments but you're the one saying nothing more than "I know it when I see it and that's the end of it". You're the one who insists "it's anointed" is some kind of trump card that defeats any discussion. The trouble is, as I said before, if you say "it's anointed" when what you really mean is "it makes some people feel good" than just about anything could be deemed to be "anointed".

But hey, if you don't feel like discussing that's not a problem - there are other threads here. Maybe the rest of us will continue to discuss.

 

[psalms 91]

Still back to the same stuff I see. If you know it when you see it and are unwilling to even attempt to use anything objective to explain what you are saying, why do you even bother to say anything at all? Seriously - all you've got here is "I know it's anointed and you might disagree but I'm right". There's no point discussing at all.

You say you don't like circular arguments but you're the one saying nothing more than "I know it when I see it and that's the end of it". You're the one who insists "it's anointed" is some kind of trump card that defeats any discussion. The trouble is, as I said before, if you say "it's anointed" when what you really mean is "it makes some people feel good" than just about anything could be deemed to be "anointed".

But hey, if you don't feel like discussing that's not a problem - there are other threads here. Maybe the rest of us will continue to discuss.

I would hope it would be discuss rather trash it. If you know of something that would proveit then tell me but I think you know that it cant be proven to someone any more than you can prove God. Either you have experienced it or you havent,either you are open to it or you are not. If there is somethimg yopu think will prove it please let me know. I did provide scripture for some other esperiences but that is theirs not yours or mine.

 

[tango]

I would hope it would be discuss rather trash it. If you know of something that would proveit then tell me but I think you know that it cant be proven to someone any more than you can prove God. Either you have experienced it or you havent,either you are open to it or you are not. If there is somethimg yopu think will prove it please let me know. I did provide scripture for some other esperiences but that is theirs not yours or mine.

I'm actually trying to have a discussion, you're the one who is simply saying "I know I'm right" and "it's anointed" as if that were a useful contribution to the discussion. You never even attempted to explain how an inaccurate description of an event is "anointed" or how it "takes people to a holy place"

Of course we know how the Bereans were praised for how they "studied their feelings daily to see whether the things they were taught were so". That's what they did, isn't it?

 

[psalms 91]

No idea what they did since I am not one. The moving of the spirit is not something one proves any more than you can show God except in examples of what He has done and is doing but that is also subjective. You still have not told me how you prove that which is spirit, what does come to my mind is the scripture that states if you cant underatand earthly things then how can you understand spiritual because asking for proof od the spirit shopws a lack of understanding and or experience of it. You say it is an innaccurate picture of how things were, how do you know? Were you there? God can and does do things that are not always as we expect so if He wanted the animals quiet they would have been or perhaps the animals sensed the holiness much as they sense our moods. You also cannot prove that it didnt happen that way so lets see how good you are at explaining thta which cant really be proven.

 

[Albion]

Maybe there is a more fundamental difference of opinion here. Most churches see hymns as vehicles of praise or else as the peoples affirmation of their faith. As testimonials, you might say. You, however, talk as though a hymn/song in your church activates the Holy Spirit and gets (or permits) him to come upon the congregants and/or grant spiritual gifts to them.

 

[psalms 91]

Maybe there is a more fundamental difference of opinion here. Most churches see hymns as vehicles of praise or else as the peoples affirmation of their faith. As testimonials, you might say. You, however, talk as though a hymn/song in your church activates the Holy Spirit and gets (or permits) him to come upon the congregants and/or grant spiritual gifts to them.

I think you could be right but no hymn or song carries any special annointing no matter what, it is the condition of the heart and how receptive people are to the spirit that creates an annointing. While hymns and carols certainly can create an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit will work it is not always the case. That particular song though when I have experienced it was in a candlelit service where the mood was reverential, other times I can sing that and not feel an annointing on it. God chooses when and where and how, we dont.

 

[Albion]

I think you could be right but no hymn or song carries any special annointing no matter what, it is the condition of the heart and how receptive people are to the spirit that creates an annointing.

OK. That's a word that some churches use a lot while others just do not. Nevertheless, the clarification is helpful.

But on the other hand, it does mean that you are the object of the hymns--which idea was suggested earlier here--while the traditional hymns that have been criticized as boring, etc. are hymns in praise of God or of fidelity to him or are the worshippers' affirmation of Bible truths. To me, THIS is not something that is stale, trivial, boring, or anything of the sort.