Faith without good works is dead.

[MoreCoffee]

Here is an oxymoron.
Faith is never dead, for a person who is dead in his trespasses and sins cannot have faith.
Faith is always alive, for faith is a gift from God.

You say it is impossible to have "dead faith" and holy scripture says the opposite.

 

[MennoSota]

You say it is impossible to have "dead faith" and holy scripture says the opposite.

Alright, show me where the Bible calls faith dead?
James certainly does not call faith dead. He says that a person is spiritually dead if one does not see the works which faith exhibits.
There is no such thing as "dead faith."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Alright, show me where the Bible calls faith dead?
James certainly does not call faith dead. He says that a person is spiritually dead if one does not see the works which faith exhibits.
There is no such thing as "dead faith."

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

 

[pinacled]

Jesus said that following him implied taking up one's cross. Faith is to follow with the cross taken up. The saying weds faith and works.

Amen Amen
Yes, and Let no one forget that the scriptures Speak of Him.


Something to take into account is that all provisions are in order.
From the greatest to the least, only a few distinctions should be considered concerning the fruits of the spirit. Ole shaul taught fellowship in the fruits of the spirit as a milk of the Word for the children so that in a given time they would mature in the fruits of discipleship spoken of in 2 peter.

From the fruits of discipleship comes the meet of the fruits that are for the heads of the 12 tribes to give furtherin sound judgement with a gift of a hot coal like what is given to yeshayahu(Isaiah.

of the ten virgins of ephrayim and manesseh who were wise?
The daughters of Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, belonged to the clans of Manasseh son of Joseph. The names of the daughters were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milkah and Tirzah. They came forward 2 and stood before Moses, Eleazar the priest, the leaders and the whole assembly at the entrance to the tent of meeting and said, 3 “Our father died in the wilderness. He was not among Korah’s followers, who banded together against the Lord, but he died for his own sin and left no sons. 4 Why should our father’s name disappear from his clan because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s relatives.”

5 So Moses brought their case before the Lord, 6 and the Lord said to him, 7 “What Zelophehad’s daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father’s relatives and give their father’s inheritance to them.

8 “Say to the Israelites, ‘If a man dies and leaves no son, give his inheritance to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to have the force of law for the Israelites, as the Lord commanded Moses.’”


The cold water to nourish the roots of the trees like eliyahu(Elijah was called to provide is a memory specially given upon the good soil.
Only then will a person see the fire by night and cloud by day before entering the Holy Place.

I apologize if this more than a response to what was asked for. I can only hope the spirit of the Lord will be heard in the water. Hopefully If anyone is willing to approach the Lord. Remember that the Mishkan is a pattern given from Heaven. And that the tent of a body of the Holy One is founded on sacred ground.

A shepherd will always protect the children who have Heard the 4 winds , sought and found the 4 rivers, and felt the 4 corners of earth.

Blessings Always.

 

[MennoSota]

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

Who cares what a person claims. Faith is not dead. If a man's life is marked by deadness, his claims of faith are empty words.
Many a spiritually dead man will discipline himself to help others and chalk up those actions as self-righteousness. Such actions are not from faith, but from pride for the spiritually dead person cannot have faith.

 

[pinacled]

Who cares what a person claims. Faith is not dead. If a man's life is marked by deadness, his claims of faith are empty words.
Many a spiritually dead man will discipline himself to help others and chalk up those actions as self-righteousness. Such actions are not from faith, but from pride for the spiritually dead person cannot have faith.

Have you partaken of the Bread and Wine?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...He says that a person is spiritually dead if one does not see the works which faith exhibits.

This is something that's being debated here, though. As far as I can reason (and I think I can reason alright...) some might say that one who has faith apart from the exhibited works is, in fact, alive in Christ. Do you dispute that?

 

[Josiah]

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him?

Ask the Thief on the Cross when you get to heaven.....


But you are making a point NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH IN 2000 YEARS HAS EVER DISPUTED. All to evade the divisive issue your denomination used to split Christianity and itself.



.

 

[MennoSota]

This is something that's being debated here, though. As far as I can reason (and I think I can reason alright...) some might say that one who has faith apart from the exhibited works is, in fact, alive in Christ. Do you dispute that?

How can a person have faith when there are no works. It would go against Ephesians 2:10.
Ephesians 2
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who cares what a person claims. Faith is not dead. If a man's life is marked by deadness, his claims of faith are empty words.
Many a spiritually dead man will discipline himself to help others and chalk up those actions as self-righteousness. Such actions are not from faith, but from pride for the spiritually dead person cannot have faith.

Didn't you ask for a passage from holy scripture that said there is such a thing as dead faith? I gave you one. It was quoted in the first post in this thread so I quoted it again in case you had not noticed that it said Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. The kind of faith that the passage was discussing is the kind that says 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, that is to say, passive faith that does not help needy brethren.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him?

Ask the Thief on the Cross when you get to heaven.....
But you are making a point NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH IN 2000 YEARS HAS EVER DISPUTED. All to evade the divisive issue your denomination used to split Christianity and itself.

The first post quoted saint James' letter. The letter says what I quoted. You can find the quote in the bible.

James 2: 14 -18

A reading from the letter of St James​

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never
done a single good act but claims that he has faith.
Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one
of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough
food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish
you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without
giving them these bare necessities of life, then what
good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go
with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say
you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to
you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds
now you prove to me that you have faith without any
good deeds to show' (from the parish church's Bulletin for the Twenty Fourth Sunday in Ordinary Time: Year B)​

It was in Sunday's readings for mass. The second Reading.

 

[Albion]

Didn't you ask for a passage from holy scripture that said there is such a thing as dead faith? I gave you one. It was quoted in the first post in this thread so I quoted it again in case you had not noticed that it said Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. The kind of faith that the passage was discussing is the kind that says 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, that is to say, passive faith that does not help needy brethren.

This appears to come down to you not understanding that Faith cannot exist but not perform. Nor did James say that it does.

He said that an alleged Faith that does not have the characteristics of Faith is a bogus Faith, not a Faith at all, and that it cannot do (i.e. save) as real Faith does.

OK now??

 

[MennoSota]

Didn't you ask for a passage from holy scripture that said there is such a thing as dead faith? I gave you one. It was quoted in the first post in this thread so I quoted it again in case you had not noticed that it said Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. The kind of faith that the passage was discussing is the kind that says 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, that is to say, passive faith that does not help needy brethren.

How is it that you cannot comprehend what James is saying?
James is NOT saying a person can have a faith that is dead. That is the equivalent of saying God gave that man a faulty gift.
James is saying that a person with no works (see Ephesians 2:10) has no faith, regardless of the person's claim. That person is spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins. (This, by the way, is evidence of the perseverance of the saints.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

How is it that you cannot comprehend what James is saying?
James is NOT saying a person can have a faith that is dead. That is the equivalent of saying God gave that man a faulty gift.
James is saying that a person with no works (see Ephesians 2:10) has no faith, regardless of the person's claim. That person is spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins. (This, by the way, is evidence of the perseverance of the saints.)

It pleases me greatly to see affirmed by so many here in CH that faith and good works are indissolubly bonded together in all who are called to repentance, faith, and eternal life in Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[Albion]

And it took you only....HOW LONG before it dawned on you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

And it took you only....HOW LONG before it dawned on you?

Celebrate with me!

"Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.' Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15:8-10

 

[Josiah]

It pleases me greatly to see affirmed by so many here in CH that faith and good works are indissolubly bonded together in all who are called to repentance, faith, and eternal life in Jesus Christ the Lord.

Friend, AGAIN, this has NEVER - not ever - BY ANYONE (Catholic or Protestant) been in dispute. As has been noted by many for as long as CH has been up, "discipleship/sanctification/Christian living" is an area where there is universal agreement - as BOTH Protestants and your denomination stressed 500 years ago in the Reformation and ever since. The huge debate your denomination had/has with Protestants is our stance that Jesus saves - not each dead self for each dead self, by his/her own works (empowered by the divine or otherwise), whether Jesus saves or simply OFFERS it or MAKES IT POSSIBLE. As we all know, your denomination condemned in the most powerful way "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" as one united teaching in narrow justification (the COMING of faith, life and the Holy Spirit - and thus a changed relationship with God). As we all know (now including you), the disagreement was never - at all, not a bit - over what is true for the the one justified, the one with faith, life, Holy Spirit (Justification), the Christian. All have STRESSED for over 500 years we all agree on that issue. Always have. Still do.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Can we please get past the "what the RCC has condemned" rhetoric? I think the point has been made. It's tiresome. As an aside, this weekend was our "end of summer barbecue" at church. The E.O. mission next door joined us. I don't recall our historical differences and anathemas being part of the table conversation, but rather our oneness in Christ.

 

[Josiah]

Can we please get past the "what the RCC has condemned" rhetoric? I think the point has been made. It's tiresome. As an aside, this weekend was our "end of summer barbecue" at church. The E.O. mission next door joined us. I don't recall our historical differences and anathemas being part of the table conversation, but rather our oneness in Christ.

Friend, what is is. I can't change that. YES, the RCC has had 500 years to retract its anathemas, 500 years to say it actually agrees with the Lutheran position here.

And yes, any Catholic can say that for himself/herself. In fact, I personally know several who have (and one at CF who essentially said so). But I think you KNOW. This topic comes up fairly regularly here at CH, and even when it's not the topic, our Catholic friend often moved it into that discussion. And I've been very consistent in what I've shared, and several other Protestants have agreed with me and as you very well KNOW, our Catholic friend always goes on and on and on and on - often for many pages of posts - debating, repudiating, rejecting the Protestant position. Again.... IF he agreed with me, he could simply say that in stead of hundreds of posts debating it, don't you think?


Yes, I know we live in an uber-relativistic world where many Christians don't know much about theology (or the issues that divide us) and don't give a rip.... it's the age of Kumbyah and a world where folks agree with the Roman Govenor and his satirical "What is truth?" And if that's the position of folks here at CH, they just don't engage in the conversation (just as some don't engage in the Trump or bashing USA threads). And YES, I'm very well aware that there are uber-liberal Catholics who think the RCC made a huge mistake 500 years ago (and should apologize) and those who simply think the RCC ignorantly misunderstood 500 years ago but those voices are missing here.


And remember, friend, I'M the one (the only one at CH I believe) who has voiced that I believe CATHOLICS often know and believe the Gospel (often in spite of the teachings in their denomination), and that I accept Catholics as my FULL, unseparated, equal (in every sense) brothers and sisters in Christ.... that the Catholic Church is in my view a valid in every way church and that its Sacraments and clergy are valid in every way.. no Catholic at CH has returned that to Lutherans or the LCMS. And I'm the one who has stressed that WE are ALL one in Christ, in the ONE holy catholic church. Don't loose sight of that, friend. Don't loose sight of who has been debating and rejecting that.

It is not "rhetoric" that the RCC rejected and condemned Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide in Justification (narrow). And it still does. It is simply a historical fact that 500 years ago, the RCC chose to split western Christianity over one particular issue - and it has remained split over that. I've been giving the Protestant side of that (as have several others).... MC has been passionately debating and arguing it, at times for some 100 pages of posts. And yes, I know, some are just disinterested in the whole issue and haven't gotten involved (which seems the appropriate response if they don't care).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Friend, AGAIN, this has NEVER - not ever - BY ANYONE (Catholic or Protestant) been in dispute. ...

This is good news. It is a blessing to see you affirm in writing that faith without good works is dead - meaning unable to save anybody - because faith that is alive is always busy doing the good works that God prepared for the faithful to do. Amen and amen.