Faith without good works is dead.

[MoreCoffee]

My only glory is the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which crucifies the world to me and me to the world.

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show. --- a message from the letter of saint James​

Take up your cross.

Jesus and his disciples left for the villages round Caesarea Philippi. On the way he put this question to his disciples, 'Who do people say I am?' And they told him. 'John the Baptist,' they said, 'others Elijah; others again, one of the prophets.' 'But you,' he asked, 'who do you say I am?' Peter spoke up and said to him, 'You are the Christ.' And he gave them strict orders not to tell anyone about him.

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man was destined to suffer grievously, to be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and to be put to death, and after three days to rise again; and he said all this quite openly. Then, taking him aside, Peter started to remonstrate with him. But, turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said to him, 'Get behind me, Satan! Because the way you think is not God's way but man's.'

He called the people and his disciples to him and said, 'If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. --- a message from the Gospel according to saint Mark​

 

[Josiah]

Old Protestant proverb: "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone."


Jesus is the Savior, and any attempt of the Devil to suggest that what SELF does contributes ANYTHING simply destroys the central, keystone point of Christianity. Protestants proclaim this as "Sola Gratia" (God's grace/mercy alone - not anything in us), "Solus Christus" (Christ ALONE is the Savior, not self), Sola Fide (Faith alone apprehends and embraces all this). Thus is narrow Justification - the changing of our relationship with God, the granting of the divine free gift and inheritance of faith, spiritual life and Holy Spirit (narrow Justification). Christ is the ONLY and all-sufficient Savior. His gift are conveyed to us via His gift of faith (reliance). But of course, we all agree (and always have) that once Justified in this sense, once given the gift of faith in Christ as THE Savior, once given the Holy Spirit.... faith springs forth in loving works, the life we have been given means we live, the Holy Spirit we have been given now directs and empowers us. Of course, no one denies that faith is joined not only to God's works (by relying on Christ) but also to OUR works.


The error of some is to assume that if two things are associated (even joined) they MUST have exactly the same functions. It's silly but heard all the time. My Subaru Forester has a heater and an air conditioner. You cannot buy a Subaru Forester without BOTH. But it's silly to say they BOTH have the function of making the interior warmer or colder. An airplane has both engines and wings but it's absurd to argue they both have identical functions. The Christian loves (reflecting the love he FIRST received from God) but it's silly to invert these in an attempt to make Christ as small as possible (even irrelevant in the role of Savior) and to make self as big as possible (even to make self the ultimate Savior of self). Our love is not what causes justification (narrow), the attaining of faith in Christ as the Savior, the Holy Spirit (ironically making faith, Christ and the Holy Spirit irrelevant) but rather the result of that. We can spiritually live because we have been given life. We can follow and obey the Holy Spirit in our lives because we have been given the Holy Spirit.



- Josiah




.

 

[atpollard]

[Eph 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

FAITH begets WORKS ... Yup.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] - how would you engage the scripture presented in the OP, given what you've said in your reply?

 

[Andrew]

Here we go again, I can see another 'head biting' competition over "Works" and what it means.
I believe that both sides agree on what 'works' actually does.
Catholic=we must mature in our growth as Christians for the time is come. Repent of all wickedness now or forever hold your peace.
Protestant=Repentance is absolute and grafted in Faith. Jesus has finished our work on the cross, believe and be redeemed and good works will follow.
There is much nail biting in this competition because yes the Catholic church has added on so much unnecessary bondage to 'accepting Christ', and as for Protestants they come off as undermining the whole concept of any 'works' -good or bad, that is -to the outsider such as myself, but at least it promotes 'biblical fact checking' and thinking outside an "official" group-think.
The historical embrace between the two is mesmerizing, I feed off the two equally and it certainly does help me understand my one on one relationship with the Lord and from what I sense, he embraces the two equally as his people and my heart in Christ rejoices in that.
But this is just me again, interrupting as usual to toss my two cents into the bucket.
May I root for two teams at once?
My God loves you all

 

[MoreCoffee]

[Eph 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

FAITH begets WORKS ... Yup.

However it works (that is, the theory of what comes first, faith or works or if grace comes first and then both faith and works are born as gifts from God), it is the teaching of Christ that faith without works is dead.

 

[MennoSota]

MC, this is a rehashed thread. You are obviously going to promote works salvation and then deny it, yet keep repeating it anyway. I'll let others respond beyond this point as I find your contradiction tiresome. I have no more desire to toss pearls in your direction.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Just the one pearl, eh? -__-

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] - how would you engage the scripture presented in the OP, given what you've said in your reply?

Jibes perfectly. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Savior - not each self for self. But that the one justified (and thus with life, faith and the Holy Spirit) is active. "Faith is a busy thing" - Luther. But faith can't be busy before it exists..... life can't be lived before it exists.... the Holy Spirit cannot lead and empower before He exists in a life. The one Justified lives and loves.... living the life given, loves as first loved. The Dead void of life, faith and the Holy Spirit is just dead. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[atpollard]

However it works (that is, the theory of what comes first, faith or works or if grace comes first and then both faith and works are born as gifts from God), it is the teaching of Christ that faith without works is dead.

I didn’t mean to stir up disagreement, I just meant to build on the foundation laid by James and quoted by you.
Yes, I agree with you and James that some “bloke” claiming faith but showing no works in his life is just “blowing smoke” ... because a dead faith saves no one.

 

[atpollard]

Take up your cross.

Jesus and his disciples left for the villages round Caesarea Philippi. On the way he put this question to his disciples, 'Who do people say I am?' And they told him. 'John the Baptist,' they said, 'others Elijah; others again, one of the prophets.' 'But you,' he asked, 'who do you say I am?' Peter spoke up and said to him, 'You are the Christ.' And he gave them strict orders not to tell anyone about him.

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man was destined to suffer grievously, to be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and to be put to death, and after three days to rise again; and he said all this quite openly. Then, taking him aside, Peter started to remonstrate with him. But, turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said to him, 'Get behind me, Satan! Because the way you think is not God's way but man's.'

He called the people and his disciples to him and said, 'If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. --- a message from the Gospel according to saint Mark​

Could you explain what this second part on “taking up your cross” has to do with “faith without works is dead” from James?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Could you explain what this second part on “taking up your cross” has to do with “faith without works is dead” from James?

Jesus said that following him implied taking up one's cross. Faith is to follow with the cross taken up. The saying weds faith and works.

 

[Josiah]

I didn’t mean to stir up disagreement, I just meant to build on the foundation laid by James and quoted by you.
Yes, I agree with you and James that some “bloke” claiming faith but showing no works in his life is just “blowing smoke” ... because a dead faith saves no one.

Correct.


James - writing to the Justified (in the narrow sense), to CHRISTIANS, to those WITH the divine gift of faith in Christ as the Savior, WITH the divine gift of spiritual life, WITH the divine gift of the Holy Spirit (thus, narrow justification). He's not writing this book to DEAD pagans who reject, deny and repudiate God and need justification. What James is saying is what Luther and Calvin stressed - that the Justified are to be active in loving service, "faith is a busy thing" (Luther). Faith that is just a chant is not faith at all.


Here again, we see that EVERYONE has ALWAYS agreed on the issue of discipleship ("Sanctification" in the narrow sense), on what CHRISTIANS are called to do. The RCC stressed that agreement 500 years ago in the Reformation.... Luther stressed that agreement 500 years ago in the Reformation. The issue then (the one the RCC split Western Christianity over) and the issue today is not what CHRISTIANS are to do with the faith, life and Holy Spirit they have but rather how one becomes a person with faith, life and the Holy Spirit (Justification in the narrow sense). It's an issue James doesn't address, thus when some Catholic quotes James in that context he is simply playing "the shell game" trying to change the subject and get the discussion off the debate, the divisive issue, the matter the RCC so powerfully disagrees with Protestants.

The saying weds faith and works.

It seems you are making a fundamental mistake of insisting that if two things are associated ("wed" as you choose to put it), ERGO they have the same function. Husbands and wives are wed, they are associated, Scripture even says they are "one." But do men give birth to babies? Does Scripture indicate husbands and wives have IDENTICAL functions, IDENTICAL responsibilities, IDENTICAL roles? You seem to keep making that mistake (as Catholics are apt to do). My car as both a heater and an air conditioner, you can't buy a Subaru Forester without those 2 things, but they do NOT do identical things. YES, everyone has always agreed, faith in Christ's works and OUR works are associated, "wed" as you put it, but that does NOTHING to denounce the Protestant position (it simply affirms it), it does NOTHING to support the RCC's split of Christianity over how we attain faith, life, the Holy Spirit. It's not only a silly argument but it's just "the shell game" to hijack the debate.



- Josiah





.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, I did not say that faith is the same thing as good works.

 

[Andrew]

Sounds like "Don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing" Josiah
I don't for one like to be bullied into showing 'works' for others to see, no one should ever look to anyone else but Jesus for an example of a good workmenship.
When God gives you a new heart the good works will naturally follow, it should stay modest and between you and God.
The bible says we entertain angels and that they can appear as strangers... This is a personal interaction and our teacher is the Lord and no one else. No church should preach that we should "be nice" or "be good" and then give examples and say "see thats how its done".
I personally get turned off when a preacher or anyone brags about something 'holy' they did for someone...
As for the Catholic church, MC can preach to the choir but like I said, I believe we all 'get it' and talking about 'it' is like assuming that we are just 'ignorant' of the word and need someone to explain it better.
I also don't see anything the Catholic church does in it's traditions that equal 'good works' other than debating with Lutherans about it... this always confused me because there is so much tension between the two and again I believe they both 'get it' but believe the other is 'ignorant' for some reason.
Is confession and penance considered 'good works'? I am asking a sincere question btw, just need to know if tradition is part of the 'good works' thanks

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I didn’t mean to stir up disagreement, I just meant to build on the foundation laid by James and quoted by you.
Yes, I agree with you and James that some “bloke” claiming faith but showing no works in his life is just “blowing smoke” ... because a dead faith saves no one.

Correct.

Josiah, what I find interesting is that you will affirm essentially the "spirit" of the OP in saying "Correct" if the spirit of the OP is stated by someone else. A dead faith saves no-one.

Correct

Then spend the rest of the post doubling back on yourself. I have no problem or issue seeing the separation between saving faith and works that follow, and I'm not sure the RCC would disagree. One who is content to say "I am saved by grace through faith" - full stop - is in dangerous territory if that's all one intends to do with it for the rest of one's life.

*btw, I don't mean offense. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, what I find interesting is that you will affirm essentially the "spirit" of the OP in saying "Correct" if the spirit of the OP is stated by someone else. A dead faith saves no-one.

Correct

Then spend the rest of the post doubling back on yourself. I have no problem or issue seeing the separation between saving faith and works that follow, and I'm not sure the RCC would disagree. One who is content to say "I am saved by grace through faith" - full stop - is in dangerous territory if that's all one intends to do with it for the rest of one's life.

I fail to see your issue.... or how in the world I'm being contradictory.


I'm rejecting that OUR works is what causes one who have faith in Christ as Savior, spiritual life and the Holy Spirit (narrow Justification). IMO, we are justified by works - but NOT BY OUR OWN (making each self the Savior of self) but rather, instead, by the works of CHRIST (making Jesus the sole, the only, the unique, the all-sufficient SAVIOR). I have been consistent in that position, and since he came here, MC has been debating me at every turn, in every even remotely related thread - repudiating, debating, arguing with the Protestant position. If he doesn't disagree with it, you'd need to ask him why every discussion of it seems to turn into 90+ pages of him arguing with it. And this is understandable since as you know, this WAS the centerpiece, the keystone, the divisive issue of the Reformation and THE issue over which the RCC chose to split western Christianity; it is the RCC who insisted THE issue was and is Justification in the sense that Luther meant it (this coming to faith, life and Holy Spirit - the changed relationship with God).

I realize (WELL) my friend, that you will find uber-liberal Catholics who insist their denomination just made a HUGE mistake at the Reformation and at Trent... that they just totally misunderstood Luther OR that they were more concerned with income from the sales of indulgenes than with truth and theology and faith OR that they were afraid that the view of Luther (and the Council of Orange and so many of the ECF) would empower people to sin and hinder the power of the denomination... and that's why the RCC did what it did. I understand there were even some uber-liberal Catholics urging the Pope to publicly repent for all this during the 500th Anniversary. And yes, you WILL (since Vatican II) find some Catholics now speaking of "initial grace" (or a number of other newly invented terms) to essentially say exactly what their denomination so boldly condemned Luther for saying 500 years ago. But I disagree. I have MUCH too high of an opinion of the RCC to believe their top theologians were SO ignorant that they didn't listen to a THING Luther said and read NOT ONE WORD of the books are writings they condemned and burned - and thus didn't know what Luther meant.... that the top theologians of the RCC cared more for money than truth.... I just can't swallow that. I think they knew EXACTLY what Luther was saying.... they said they AGREED with him on sanctification (the topic MC likes to switch to) but found his view on Justification to be SO horrible as to split itself over it and to make that the centerpiece of its disagreement with Luther. I think they knew... I think they meant their condemnation. The uber-Catholics are right (IMO) that they erred in rejecting Luther's affirmation of Jesus as the Savior but admitting that is not something I think the RCC can do. It had its change last year but it's not something it can do with official dogma and Church Councils.


Again, no one denies that what a CHRISTIAN, one JUSTIFIED, does matters. No one has ever denied that, no one now does. It was not an issue in the Reformation and has not been an issue since for one reason: No one debates any part of that, no one disagrees with any of that, just as Luther and the RCC said 500 years ago. The issue is how one attains faith in Christ, spiritual life, the Holy Spirit. Luther said these are free gifts, an inheritance, SOLY and ONLY because of the mercy/grace of GOD and the works of JESUS. Luther said of narrow justification, "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" what our Catholic teachers called among the worse heresies in the history of Christianity, and a teaching SO horrific that the RCC split Western Christianity over it. Sorry, it's just history. We may conclude the RCC was wrong or ignorant or motivated by money and power rather than truth but that doesn't change anything. IF any Catholic brother or sister wants to say (for self) "Luther was actually correct on this" they are free to do so. But what we tend to get is hundreds of posts, many long pages of debates, rejections, etc. I think you know this to be true. Here at CH and everywhere else.




- Josiah




.

 

[Albion]

Josiah, what I find interesting is that you will affirm essentially the "spirit" of the OP in saying "Correct" if the spirit of the OP is stated by someone else. A dead faith saves no-one.

Correct

Then spend the rest of the post doubling back on yourself. I have no problem or issue seeing the separation between saving faith and works that follow, and I'm not sure the RCC would disagree. One who is content to say "I am saved by grace through faith" - full stop - is in dangerous territory if that's all one intends to do with it for the rest of one's life.

I haven't been following this version of the eternally popular Faith vs. Works debate, but it looks to me that Josiah's comment ('Correct') was made in reply to apollard's post, not to the OP.

Beyond that, I remain mystified as to why people do not see that James' Epistle is entirely on the side of Faith. Even the verses that are usually quoted by people who are on the other side say as much. The whole epistle is about having and being saved by Faith, even when Works are mentioned.

 

[pinacled]

My only glory is the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which crucifies the world to me and me to the world.

Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind: 'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds - now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show. --- a message from the letter of saint James​

Take up your cross.

Jesus and his disciples left for the villages round Caesarea Philippi. On the way he put this question to his disciples, 'Who do people say I am?' And they told him. 'John the Baptist,' they said, 'others Elijah; others again, one of the prophets.' 'But you,' he asked, 'who do you say I am?' Peter spoke up and said to him, 'You are the Christ.' And he gave them strict orders not to tell anyone about him.

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man was destined to suffer grievously, to be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and to be put to death, and after three days to rise again; and he said all this quite openly. Then, taking him aside, Peter started to remonstrate with him. But, turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said to him, 'Get behind me, Satan! Because the way you think is not God's way but man's.'

He called the people and his disciples to him and said, 'If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. --- a message from the Gospel according to saint Mark​

Hello more coffee,
Thank You very much for your contribution about this subject. What I've mostly noticed from other posters in the area of the fruits of the spirit is discipline.
Its seems they have forgoten, or perhaps have not been taught, or have not studied with the Wonderful Counselor.
I hope this may help. There are many instances of the Fruits of the spirit being mentioned other than the 9 spoke of by ole shaul. In 2 peter we are taught to supplement the fruits. From yeshayahu(Isaiah we are given something of A gift also. But that is not for the children still on milk.

From what I've observed here, and in other forums over the yrs is that there is a lack of discernment.

What has not been mentioned is the distinction between fellowship and discipleship.

Blessings Always.

 

[MennoSota]

A dead faith saves no-one.

Here is an oxymoron.
Faith is never dead, for a person who is dead in his trespasses and sins cannot have faith.
Faith is always alive, for faith is a gift from God.