Salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Yes the salient matter in the last judgement is what people did. The just did good, the wicked did no good.
The sheep inherited the kingdom. The goats received the judgment brought about by the curse.
Read this passage until you accept what it is actually saying, rather than what you are forcing into the passage, MC.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
The Just were just because they did good. The wicked were wicked because they did no good. HINT: Matthew 25:34 Then the King shall say to those who will be on his right: ‘Come, you blessed of my Father. Possess the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; 36 naked, and you covered me; sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.’
Shake my head, you refuse to accept what the text says.
Sheep= Inherit the Kingdom
Goat= Under the curse of sin
Both= Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The sheep inherited the kingdom. The goats received the judgment brought about by the curse.
You are wrong. It is the people who did good that inherit the kingdom. And the people who did no good are judged & condemned to eternal punishment.
Read this passage until you accept what it is actually saying, rather than what you are forcing into the passage, MC.

Matthew 25:34 Then the King shall say to those who will be on his right: ‘Come, you blessed of my Father. Possess the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; 36 naked, and you covered me; sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.’

37 Then the just will answer him, saying: ‘Lord, when have we see you hungry, and fed you; thirsty, and given you drink? 38 And when have we seen you a stranger, and taken you in? Or naked, and covered you? 39 Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit to you?’

40 And in response, the King shall say to them, ‘Amen I say to you, whenever you did this for one of these, the least of my brothers, you did it for me.’
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Just were just because they did good.

I reject your rejection of Jesus as the Savior.

You wrote, "The just did good." Correct. It does not say, "dead people without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without life did good and THUS became just - making Jesus irrelevant and meaning there is no inheritance, just payment for work done."


Matthew 25:34 is Law. For the Dead, it is condemning because NO dead, lifeless, faithless person void of the Holy Spirit does this - indeed, it is IMPOSSIBLE for such to do ANYTHING pleasing to God. Hebrews 11:6. For those justified, for those with the free gift/inheritance of spiritual life, faith, Holy Spirit, we ARE called to MUCH but that's another issue for another day and thread and an issue on which there is no debate, no disagreement. Yes, the JUSTIFIED are to do good but "good" done by DEAD, lifeless, atheistic enemies of God, void of faith and void of the Holy Spirit (which is an impossibility vis-a-vis God) is not what justifies them - making Jesus a sick joke and Christianity wrong.




.




.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
You are wrong. It is the people who did good that inherit the kingdom. And the people who did no good are judged & condemned to eternal punishment.
That is not what the text says.
Matthew 25:34,41
[34]“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.
[41]“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.
These two statements come before Jesus explains what the sheep and goats did or didn't do. Their salvation is not by their works. There salvation is by the providence of God.
The two groups did not merit their destiny by their actions as you so unfortunately preach.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I reject your rejection of Jesus as the Savior.

You wrote, "The just did good." Correct. It does not say, "dead people without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without life did good and THUS became just - making Jesus irrelevant and meaning there is no inheritance, just payment for work done."


Matthew 25:34 is Law. For the Dead, it is condemning because NO dead, lifeless, faithless person void of the Holy Spirit does this - indeed, it is IMPOSSIBLE for such to do ANYTHING pleasing to God. Hebrews 11:6. For those justified, for those with the free gift/inheritance of spiritual life, faith, Holy Spirit, we ARE called to MUCH but that's another issue for another day and thread and an issue on which there is no debate, no disagreement. Yes, the JUSTIFIED are to do good but "good" done by DEAD, lifeless, atheistic enemies of God, void of faith and void of the Holy Spirit (which is an impossibility vis-a-vis God) is not what justifies them - making Jesus a sick joke and Christianity wrong.

Jesus is the Lord and saviour and no one else is though others work with Christ for the salvation of souls. Nevertheless the just in Matthew 25:31-46 are just because they did good and the wicked are wicked because they did no good. That is the judgement of the King in the story.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Jesus is the Lord and saviour and no one else is though others work with Christ for the salvation of souls. Nevertheless the just in Matthew 25:31-46 are just because they did good and the wicked are wicked because they did no good. That is the judgement of the King in the story.
Your statement is similar to the Judaisers whom Paul condemns in his letter to the Galatians. You deny grace and replace it with works.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Your statement is similar to the Judaisers whom Paul condemns in his letter to the Galatians. You deny grace and replace it with works.

The fault that you decry is not in my words but in the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:31-46 and in the letter of saint James 2:14-24 and in the teaching of the apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:1-18. Jesus is Lord and Jesus is saviour and people are judged according to their deeds as the apostles and the Lord said. And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (I Peter 1:17-19)
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Jesus is the Lord and saviour and no one else is though others work with Christ for the salvation of souls. Nevertheless the just in Matthew 25:31-46 are just because they did good and the wicked are wicked because they did no good. That is the judgement of the King in the story.


You are SO close to the Protestant view that I'm left wondering WHY 90 pages of you ridiculing, rejecting and debating it. IF Jesus is the Savior (in this sense of the one who justifies us) then we aren't. I wonder why that seems SO difficult to you?????

But you are wrong on one point. You ORIGIANALLY were right (as you quoted Scripture) "The JUST do good." It doesn't not say, "The good deeds done by DEAD atheistic people who hate and deny God and are enemies of God without faith, without the Holy Spirit, without God makes them Just and thus there is no need for God, for Christ, for the Cross, for the Resurrection, for the Gospel - and Christianity is an absurd lie."




.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You are SO close to the Protestant view that I'm left wondering ...

I do not wonder at it, the grace of God is explanation enough for me.

I say with my elderly friend Keep calm and carry on. It is good advice when matters become heated.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
The fault that you decry is not in my words but in the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:31-46 and in the letter of saint James 2:14-24 and in the teaching of the apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:1-18. Jesus is Lord and Jesus is saviour and people are judged according to their deeds as the apostles and the Lord said. And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (I Peter 1:17-19)
MC, Peter is writing to the elect, not to people who are dead in their trespasses and sins.
You really, really struggle with differentiating between the two. You keep taking what is written to the saints and you apply it to those under the curse. In so doing, you mangle what Peter, James, Paul and Jesus are saying.
I can tell, at this point, that you have a significant blind spot which you cannot overcome on your own. May God take away your blindness in this matter.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
MC, Peter is writing to the elect, not to people who are dead in their trespasses and sins.
[Let it be known among the elect that ] if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (I Peter 1:17-19) ]
Adding an address does not change the meaning. We discussed this before.
You really, really struggle with differentiating between the two.
God bless you too MennoSota.
You keep taking what is written to the saints and you apply it to those under the curse. In so doing, you mangle what Peter, James, Paul and Jesus are saying.
I can tell, at this point, that you have a significant blind spot which you cannot overcome on your own. May God take away your blindness in this matter.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
[Let it be known among the elect that ] if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (I Peter 1:17-19) ]
Adding an address does not change the meaning. We discussed this before. God bless you too MennoSota.
You made no argument from the text, but continued mistaking the difference between God’s chosen and those who are cursed.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
[Let it be known among the elect that ] if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (I Peter 1:17-19) ]
Adding an address does not change the meaning. We discussed this before. God bless you too MennoSota.


1. 1 Peter 1:17-19 is addressed to CHRISTIANS. People WITH the free gift of faith, of spiritual life, of the Holy Spirit - and thus of Justification (narrow). Thus, the context here is Sanctification.


2. Everyone has always agreed that CHRISTIANS are judged by their own works; there IS a judgement according to our works but this has nothing to do with justification (or else all Christianity would be a lie, Jesus would save no one, the Gospel would be wrong). CHRISTIANS are called to holiness.... to love as God first loved us.... to forgive as we were first forgiven... to be obedient to the Holy Spirit that we now have.... to live the life we have now been given. And we will be judged accordingly. But it is wrong to accuse Peter of saying that we save ourselves by what we do - so that Jesus is a sick joke and a lie, Jesus is not the Savior of anyone, Jesus' works accomplish nothing for no one, there is no free gift, no inheritance - just what every OTHER religion says: self saves self (albeit with divine help). No, Peter was a Christian. He believed, taught and confessed that JESUS is the SAVIOR.


3. For the CHRISTIAN (the Justified in the narrow sense), our fault are forgiven and are not seen by God. And our faith means that the "good" we do is seen as good by God ("It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God apart from faith.")




- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
1. 1 Peter 1:17-19 is addressed to CHRISTIANS.
Amen. That is why the text I highlighted says [Let it be known among the elect that ] if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds. Christians call God Father, that is agreed. What seems to be causing some difficulty is the part that says who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds. That part was set in bold text when I highlighted it. The idea of judgement according to one's deeds is what saint Peter wants his readers to notice; the consequent behaviour he urged upon his Christian readers is conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
People WITH the free gift of faith, of spiritual life, of the Holy Spirit - and thus of Justification (narrow). Thus, the context here is Sanctification.


2. Everyone has always agreed that CHRISTIANS are judged by their own works; there IS a judgement according to our works but
this has nothing to do with justification
This thread is about salvation That is its title. The idea in saint Pater's statement is that judgement by God is according to a Christian's deeds. This is not a new idea invented by saint Peter. He is reflecting what Jesus taught to him. We can find what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46. That passage was quoted earlier in this thread. It need not be quoted here. All that I want to bring forward is this: The nations, Christians included among them are judged according to what they did, according to their deeds. Those who did good are called the righteous and those who did not do good are called accursed and wicked. The former receive the kingdom and the latter receive eternal punishment. Can we agree that such is the case?
(or else all Christianity would be a lie, Jesus would save no one, the Gospel would be wrong). CHRISTIANS are called to holiness.... to love as God first loved us.... to forgive as we were first forgiven... to be obedient to the Holy Spirit that we now have.... to live the life we have now been given. And we will be judged accordingly.
But it is wrong to accuse Peter of saying that we save ourselves by what we do
Amen. No man saves himself by what he does nor does any man earn God's saving grace because of what he does. The just shall live by faith, says saint Paul. This is the truth and I do not challenge it. We are saved by grace, says saint Paul, through faith, and then he adds that we are saved for the purpose of doing the good works that God foreordained for Christians to do as their way of life.
- so that Jesus is a sick joke and a lie, Jesus is not the Savior of anyone, Jesus' works accomplish nothing for no one, there is no free gift, no inheritance - just what every OTHER religion says: self saves self (albeit with divine help). No, Peter was a Christian. He believed, taught and confessed that JESUS is the SAVIOR.

3. For the CHRISTIAN (the Justified in the narrow sense), our fault are forgiven and are not seen by God. And our faith means that the "good" we do is seen as good by God ("It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God apart from faith.")

- Josiah
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Amen. That is why the text I highlighted says [Let it be known among the elect that ] if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds. Christians call God Father, that is agreed. What seems to be causing some difficulty is the part that says who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds. That part was set in bold text when I highlighted it. The idea of judgement according to one's deeds is what saint Peter wants his readers to notice; the consequent behaviour he urged upon his Christian readers is conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. This thread is about salvation That is its title. The idea in saint Pater's statement is that judgement by God is according to a Christian's deeds. This is not a new idea invented by saint Peter. He is reflecting what Jesus taught to him. We can find what Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46. That passage was quoted earlier in this thread. It need not be quoted here. All that I want to bring forward is this: The nations, Christians included among them are judged according to what they did, according to their deeds. Those who did good are called the righteous and those who did not do good are called accursed and wicked. The former receive the kingdom and the latter receive eternal punishment. Can we agree that such is the case? Amen. No man saves himself by what he does nor does any man earn God's saving grace because of what he does. The just shall live by faith, says saint Paul. This is the truth and I do not challenge it. We are saved by grace, says saint Paul, through faith, and then he adds that we are saved for the purpose of doing the good works that God foreordained for Christians to do as their way of life.
MC, this is a thread on salvation. Your quote from Peter has nothing to do with this thread. You are attempting to force a passage, written to the elect, to apply to salvation when it does not apply. You do the same thing with James and with Hebrews.
Your interpretation is entirely off-base, yet you continue to push it despite being shown how dreadfully wrong you are. My only conclusions are...you are blind to the text and you are too bullheaded to stop pushing your false application.
You are wrong, MC.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
According to Paul, Justification is the mid-point of Salvation...

It begins with God's Call (to repentance) of the Gospel...
It then proceeds to God's justification of those who answer the Call (to repentance)...
It then proceeds to those overcoming demonic powers and principalities, to Glorification by God...

Repent and be Baptized (into Christ)!
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!


For indeed Christ IS the King...
And...
He IS the Kingdom of Heaven...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
According to Paul, Justification is the mid-point of Salvation...

It begins with God's Call (to repentance) of the Gospel...
It then proceeds to God's justification of those who answer the Call (to repentance)...
It then proceeds to those overcoming demonic powers and principalities, to Glorification by God...

Repent and be Baptized (into Christ)!
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!


For indeed Christ IS the King...
And...
He IS the Kingdom of Heaven...


Arsenios

No, that's according to Arsenios, not according to Paul.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,250
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
No, that's according to Arsenios, not according to Paul.

Jesus said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) and "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:15-16)
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Jesus said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15) and "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:15-16)

Mark 1 and Mark 16 are not about the same thing. As I have said, you get these mixed up and merged so that you confuse yourself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom