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MoreCoffee

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Oh we all find the subject of "coming to have faith" in the Bible...
We also find the subject of Spiritual Life in the Bible...
We also find the subject of the Holy Spirit in the Bible...
We also find the subject of a changed relationship with God in the Bible...

All these topics we find in the Bible...
And we know them in our heart...
And we are not a denomination like you...

But what I do NOT find anywhere is this artificial concept you have invented called "Narrow Justification"...
I find Justification, but never this "Narrow" Justification you imagine exists somewhere in the Bible...

I suppose I could invent some terms too...
Let's call it, say: Teen Age Justification, and then Early Believers' Justification, and then perhaps, Expansive Justification, and even for good measure, we could add Generic Justification... And I could name some Biblical features that might accrue to each of these terms... And I could assign varying degrees of Salvation to each according to some perceived standard... And build an edifice of thought and defend it against all comers...

But the Bible does not talk about "Narrow Justification" - Only YOU do, and your words ring false, because they insist that there is nothing we need to DO to be Justified by God AFTER we are Called by God, yet before we are Glorified by God in this life...

Do-Nothing Justification is false and is no more than Easy Believerism and cheap grace...

And you insist that there is no virtue that has anything to do with Justification...

And this means that God justifies predators and their victims equally...

And I find none of this in the Bible...

Arsenios

"Narrow" is an odd word to apply to God's gift of himself.

The idea that justification has absolutely nothing to do with the person who is justified is false as false as the phrase "voodoo justification" is.

"Narrow justification" is a fantasy like Harry Potter's world of magic wands and spells.

Holy scripture has justification, it is said to be caused by works and by faith - James 2:24, Romans 3:21-26.
 

Arsenios

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Holy scripture has justification,
It is said to be caused by works and by faith -
James 2:24,
Romans 3:21-26.

Dare I add that it is God, and NOT God's works, Who, Justifies?

The Bible never states that the Works of God Justify the sinner...

It clearly states that it is God Himself WHO Justifies the repentant sinner...

I mean, was "Narrow Justification" even a topic named in the confrontation of Rome and the Reformation??


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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Dare I add that it is God, and NOT God's works, Who, Justifies?

The Bible never states that the Works of God Justify the sinner...

It clearly states that it is God Himself WHO Justifies the repentant sinner...

I mean, was "Narrow Justification" even a topic named in the confrontation of Rome and the Reformation??


Arsenios

The protestant revolt centred around indulgences and the veneration of the saints and the real presence., The first two were condemned by Lutherans and others, the last was condemned by Zwingli and Anabaptists. Justification by "faith alone" became a catch cry in the proposed "remedy" for the "errors" listed. As time went by the "five solas" of Protestantism became core doctrines of the Protestants. The five solas were stated in opposition to what Protestants alleged was taught by the Catholic Church. The council of Trent responded to the views of the Protestants. This "Narrow Justification" is not one of the five solas and it is not, to my knowledge, a phrase used by any of the first generation of "Protestant reformers".
 

Josiah

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The protestant revolt centred around indulgences and the veneration of the saints and the real presence., The first two were condemned by Lutherans and others, the last was condemned by Zwingli and Anabaptists. Justification by "faith alone" became a catch cry in the proposed "remedy" for the "errors" listed. As time went by the "five solas" of Protestantism became core doctrines of the Protestants. The five solas were stated in opposition to what Protestants alleged was taught by the Catholic Church. The council of Trent responded to the views of the Protestants. This "Narrow Justification" is not one of the five solas and it is not, to my knowledge, a phrase used by any of the first generation of "Protestant reformers".


Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is the Protestant doctrine of narrow justification. Soli Deo Gloria goes with this and notes that God does the justifiying and thus God gets ALL the glory, credit and praise. Sola Scriptura deals with epistemology and is a reaction to the RCC itself exempting it itself from accountability since it itself declared that it itself cannot err and thus cannot be held accountable....


In the beginning, Luther - in his responsibility as a Doctor of the Church (the RC denomination) simply noted the heresy being preached by the Indulgence sellers - it was Pelagian synergism in direct conflict with the Council of Orange, etc. He FULLY expected to be thanked for bringing to the attention of the Pope and the Bishops involved this heresy. He was shocked to discover that instead, the leadership of his denomination chose to defend their gross heresy - it seemed in fear of loosing the great funds they were getting from the people of Germany by terrorizing their souls with heresy, the denomination's increasing choice of defending Pelagian synergism against the Gospel. LATER, Luther begins to question Indulgences themselves but that was not the genesis of the Reformation, Justification was.

"Narrow Justification" (like "original sin" "purgatory" "real presence" "Sacrament" and a GREAT, GREAT many other terms) are not found in the Bible but are theological terms. The RCC and the Reformers did not disagree on all aspects of soteriology - in fact they were in full agreement as to what follows the coming to spiritual life, to faith, of the Holy Spirit, of the changed relationship with God (what is often called narrow sanctification or discipleship or the Christian walk) and so, to address the debate rather than the agreement, all "sides" began to use the term "justification" to refer to narrow justification, the coming to faith, the coming of spiritual life, the granting of the Holy Spirit, the changed relationship. All sides were EXTREMELY clear on this, neither side wishing to imply some debate on Sanctification that didn't exist.



- Josiah




.
 

Josiah

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The Bible never states that the Works of God Justify the sinner...

Is that why Jesus is seen as irrelevant? No need for His incarnation or life or death or resurrect .... no need for Jesus to be or do or achieve ANYTHING because He's entirely irrelevant to anything? In your soteriology, it's ALL self and NOTHING of God? All what WE do and nothing whatsoever about what God does?[




.
 

MennoSota

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Oh we all find the subject of "coming to have faith" in the Bible...
We also find the subject of Spiritual Life in the Bible...
We also find the subject of the Holy Spirit in the Bible...
We also find the subject of a changed relationship with God in the Bible...

All these topics we find in the Bible...
And we know them in our heart...
And we are not a denomination like you...

But what I do NOT find anywhere is this artificial concept you have invented called "Narrow Justification"...
I find Justification, but never this "Narrow" Justification you imagine exists somewhere in the Bible...

I suppose I could invent some terms too...
Let's call it, say: Teen Age Justification, and then Early Believers' Justification, and then perhaps, Expansive Justification, and even for good measure, we could add Generic Justification... And I could name some Biblical features that might accrue to each of these terms... And I could assign varying degrees of Salvation to each according to some perceived standard... And build an edifice of thought and defend it against all comers...

But the Bible does not talk about "Narrow Justification" -
Only YOU do,
And your words ring false,
Because they insist that there is nothing we need to DO
To be Justified by God
AFTER we are Called by God,
Yet before we are Glorified by God
In the Kingdom of Heaven in this life...

Do-Nothing Justification is false and is no more than Easy Believerism and cheap grace...

And you insist that there is no virtue that has anything to do with Justification...

And this means that God justifies predators and their victims equally...

And I find none of this in the Bible...

Arsenios
Hmmm...how are you, a wretched sinner...going to justify yourself by the actions you do? What act from your wretched self is going to impress God so that you are justified?
Please list the works by which you are going to impress God.
 

Arsenios

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Hmmm...how are you, a wretched sinner...going to justify yourself by the actions you do? What act from your wretched self is going to impress God so that you are justified?
Please list the works by which you are going to impress God.

Hmmm...how are you, a wretched sinner...going to justify yourself by the actions you do? What act from your wretched self is going to impress God so that you are justified?
Please list the works by which you are going to impress God.

Self-Justification is un-Christian...

"Whom He Called, them He also Justified..."

Hence it is God Who Justifies, not self...

Is the Call of God unto Repentance?

Does God Justify those who do not repent?

Man does the repenting (or not)...

God Justifies man repenting...

Repenting is the denying of self...

Therefore no self-Justification...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Is that why Jesus is seen as irrelevant? No need for His incarnation or life or death or resurrect .... no need for Jesus to be or do or achieve ANYTHING because He's entirely irrelevant to anything? In your soteriology, it's ALL self and NOTHING of God? All what WE do and nothing whatsoever about what God does?[

Do you agree that God's Call comes BEFORE He Justifies?

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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This thread is about salvation not specifically about justification. I started a thread on Justification a while back and after 1,800 or more posts it had to be closed because some of the people writing posts were unable to remain civil. I do not want this thread to go the same way. Return to the topic and please remain civil. You are all adults, there is not good reason to become uncivil in a written discussion so stop it.
 

MennoSota

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Self-Justification is un-Christian...

"Whom He Called, them He also Justified..."

Hence it is God Who Justifies, not self...
Is the Call of God unto Repentance?
No, that is the call of John the Baptist. The call of God is to make the person alive in Christ. The resulting effect of God's act in making a person alive in Christ will be repentance. Dead men cannot repent.
Does God Justify those who do not repent?
Yes. Saul of Tarsus is a prime example.
Since God justifies before repentance this means that salvation and justification are solely by God's grace and not by human works of repentance.
Man does the repenting (or not)...
Repentance is an effect of God's work in making the dead person alive in Christ.
God Justifies man repenting...
God justifies by grace alone. Repentance is an effect of God's justification, it is not a cause of God's justification. If it were like you demand, then grace no longer is needed and the law would suffice.
Repenting is the denying of self...
Repent simply means to turn away from one thing and turn toward another thing. Self denial is not inherently tied to repentance. That is your own addition.
Therefore no self-Justification...
Arsenios
Which means there is no repentance before God makes a person alive in Christ.
God must do the work of saving and justifying before a person can repent.
 

Arsenios

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No, that is the call of John the Baptist. The call of God is to make the person alive in Christ. The resulting effect of God's act in making a person alive in Christ will be repentance. Dead men cannot repent.

Yes. Saul of Tarsus is a prime example.
Since God justifies before repentance this means that salvation and justification are solely by God's grace and not by human works of repentance.

Repentance is an effect of God's work in making the dead person alive in Christ.

God justifies by grace alone. Repentance is an effect of God's justification, it is not a cause of God's justification. If it were like you demand, then grace no longer is needed and the law would suffice.

Repent simply means to turn away from one thing and turn toward another thing. Self denial is not inherently tied to repentance. That is your own addition.

Which means there is no repentance before God makes a person alive in Christ.
God must do the work of saving and justifying before a person can repent.

Menno, God bless ya!

And thank you...

I think you have made this abundantly clear...

I am in your debt...

So will you indulge me in a little ad hominum??

You have repeatedly pointed out that I am in need of Salvation...

That you see me as working really hard to earn my wages of Salvation from God...

That by doing so, I am far, far from God in your understanding...

So would you be so kind as to tell me what I can DO to gain God's Salvation???

Because the answer you seem to have given is this:

Nothing...

eg IF God hasn't saved someone, there is nothing the person can do to attain the Salvation of God...

[The ad hominum is on me, btw, not you...]

[But still, it is an honorable mention ad hominum, yes??]


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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"Whom He Called, them He also Justified..."

Arsenios said:
So is the Call of God unto repentance?

No, that is the call of John the Baptist.
The call of God is to make the person alive in Christ.

So then do you believe that the Call of God IS Justification?

Because you have also written:

God must do the work of saving and justifying before a person can repent.

And this seems to mean that there is no repentance unto Salvation...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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You are all adults...

You are a very optimistic person, MC! :)

On the one hand, posts have to be edgy enough to provoke a reply...

And on the other hand, caring enough to encourage a reply...

Ignoring hard questions is very common here...

No small matter! :)

Are you still awake Down Under??


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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You are a very optimistic person, MC! :)

On the one hand, posts have to be edgy enough to provoke a reply...

And on the other hand, caring enough to encourage a reply...

Ignoring hard questions is very common here...

No small matter! :)

Are you still awake Down Under??


Arsenios

It is sleep time in the great southern land.

 

MennoSota

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Menno, God bless ya!

And thank you...

I think you have made this abundantly clear...

I am in your debt...

So will you indulge me in a little ad hominum??

You have repeatedly pointed out that I am in need of Salvation...

That you see me as working really hard to earn my wages of Salvation from God...

That by doing so, I am far, far from God in your understanding...

So would you be so kind as to tell me what I can DO to gain God's Salvation???

Because the answer you seem to have given is this:

Nothing...

eg IF God hasn't saved someone, there is nothing the person can do to attain the Salvation of God...

[The ad hominum is on me, btw, not you...]

[But still, it is an honorable mention ad hominum, yes??]


Arsenios
Nothing is the correct answer.

God does it all.

The person whom God makes alive will be quickened by God so that the person responds to God in repentance and belief.
I cannot state that you have not been quickened (made alive) by God, Arsenios. That is God's task and only His.
I can state that nothing you do will cause God to quicken you. God will either do the quickening or He won't.
The elect of God will be quickened and will respond to the ambassador who speaks the gospel of reconciliation through Jesus atoning sacrifice. The non-elect will consider the message of the gospel and reconciliation to be utterly foolish.
My contention with you is your message of works salvation rather than grace alone.
What God has done with you is between God and you.
 

MennoSota

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"Whom He Called, them He also Justified..."





So then do you believe that the Call of God IS Justification?

Because you have also written:



And this seems to mean that there is no repentance unto Salvation...

Arsenios

The act of God's quickening (making alive) is also the moment of salvation and justification.
Repentance is an effect of God's quickening.
There is no repentance that causes salvation. The dead man cannot repent.
 

Arsenios

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Here is a small homily on Salvation:

“This is the soul’s espousal to Christ.
All else is adultery and promiscuity.
Only such a close union between the soul and Christ,
that is most clearly mirrored for us in earthly marriage,
can make the soul rich and fruitful.
From all other close relationships that the soul may have
are born thistles and weeds.”

He goes on:

“Whatever it is with which the human soul links itself most closely,
that is in a kind of wedlock,
whether with a living being or a dead thing,
with the body, or its clothing,
with silver or gold or any earthly possession,
any sort of earthly glory or passion
for anything in the created world,
jewelry, food, drink, dancing, nature...
Every such marriage by the human soul
is outside the law
and draws endless misfortune on the soul
both in this world and in the world to come
in a way similar though incomparably greater than,
unlawful relations between a man and a woman.

“The soul’s ardent love for God is its only legal marriage.”....
”Whatever a man or woman believes in, hopes in, or loves more than God,
takes God’s place.
That about which the person most often thinks,
most zealously desires
will gradually become the essence of his being. ....
A man is saved or lost by his love in this life.
There is only one saving love
and that is love for God.
There is only one saving marriage
and that is marriage to God.
Every other love
that does not come forth from this marriage
as rays from the sun,
is cursing and damnation”


St. Nikolai Velimirovich

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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The act of God's quickening (making alive) is also the moment of salvation and justification.
Repentance is an effect of God's quickening.
There is no repentance that causes salvation. The dead man cannot repent.

Can the deadened man SEEK Salvation FROM God?
Can the deadened man ASK FOR Salvation from God?
Can the deadened man BECKON UNTO God for Him to draw nigh?

Or are these actions ONLY for the ALREADY SAVED...??

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Nothing is the correct answer.

God does it all.

Well alrighty-then!

Pass me the beer and the remote...

Who is playing today?

Got any playmates for me to call?

Wanna go fishing?

Eat, Drink and be Merry...

We are all DEAD until we are Glorified!

At least by your theory...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Nothing is the correct answer.

God does it all.

...What God has done with you is between God and you.

Lone Ranger Salvation...

Got it...

Me and God and NOBODY ELSE!!


Arsenios
 
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